J-79 smoke - a liability?

[Like This - Do That]

Hello mil PPRuNers

Please excuse my ignorance, my only mil aviation experience is riding in the back of Hueys, Hercs and Caribous.....

Whilst web surfing last night I downloaded some F-104 mpegs and avis, all very cool stuff. But I started thinking about the smoke they spewed out in mil power.

Of course the F-104 wasn't the only aircraft powered by the J-79. Most Phantoms had them, as did B-58s and Kfirs. Was this massive plume of black smoke a liability in combat? Were J-79s in these other aircraft as smokey as the F-104? Did it matter very much? Is the trail of smoke visible beyond the range at which a sharp pair of eyes would pick up a non-smoking fighter?

Cheers

[KC-10 Driver]

I never flew the Phantom, but my brother flew them in the USMC.

From speaking with him, and from other sources, my understanding is that the smoke trail was a major liability of the F-4 in Vietnam.

[The Nr Fairy]

I remember reading an article some years ago, written by an in-theatre Navy F4 pilot, IIRC, where it was recommended (among lots of other things which seemed sensible to me as a non-mil pilot) to use afterburner for the run-in and airbrakes to ontrol the speed, simply to reduce the plume.

Apparently the report was written, submitted, and immediately classified in such a manner that those people who would benefit from it - other pilots operating in Vietnam - couldn't get access to it.

[Rhino power]

Later models of the J-79 had - supposedly - smokeless combustors fitted, although the smoketrail was still evident.
Late in the F-4G's service life 'Pacer Frugal' - IIRC - modifications were also fitted in an attempt to improve reliability and further reduce the smoke but it never disappeared altogether, even RAF/RN's F-4M/K were good smokers when not using re-heat.

Regards, RP.

[soddim]

Was J-79 smoke a significant problem? You bet it was, especially if viewed against a white cloud background. Burner helped but that was only good for short periods if you wanted to get home with some fuel to spare.

The J-79 versions of the F4 produced twice as much smoke as the F-104 and the only way to hide it was to stay below the opposition. Normally one acquired the smoke before the aircraft and medium level visual acquisitions of over 10 miles were not unusual.

[Razor61]

But at that time, the soviet 'turmansky' engine was also delivering a vast amount of 'soot' so each side could see each other coming no matter what?

The Russian Su-22 and Mig-21 gave out alot of smoke, as does the Mig-29.