Anyone recently converted Uk-->Aus ATPL?

[Bondi Tram]

Dear All,

Later this year, I intend to embark on converting UK/JAR ATPL to an Australian ATPL. I’ve researched the subject as extensively as I can from the CASA website (http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/fcl_lic/overbr.htm), Pprune’s search function and dedicated websites such as Rob Avery’s excellent page (http://www.aviationshop.com.au/avfacts/). This said, I believe there’s often no substitute for the experiences of someone who’s gone through it all before you - so if anyone has gone through the same process in the last few years (since the abolition of the dedicated conversion exam (AAOS), and the introduction of the cyber-exams), and could spare a few minutes to relate any lessons they learned along the way, it would be genuinely appreciated. When the whole thing’s done I’ll do a big write up here for the benefit of anyone following in my footsteps.

My brief history:
Native Sydney-sider, came over to the UK about 6 years ago given the better airline job prospects. Did nearly all my flying training over here using the modular route, fortunate enough to get first job on A320. Great job which I’ve never stopped enjoying, but now highly fed up of the rain, cold, cost of living etc - Hankering to get back home, but ideally continuing the airline career of course, which requires an Aus license! Yes, I know a jet jobs in Aus are HIGHLY oversubscribed, but at least I can say I tried…
29 years old, UK(JAR) ATPL, 1900 hrs total, 1600hrs of which on A320.

I’ve managed to get something of a sabbatical off work over here, which means I can take up to two months for the whole process.

So how does this sound for a plan?…

(1). Order all the text books and reference material required (http://www.casa.gov.au/avreg/fcl_lic/fcl_exam/cyber/material.htm) for the cyber exams: AIP, CAR, CAO, ERSA, PCA, ERCs, DAPS, TACs, CAAP, partridge in a pear tree etc. Can do this a bit before leaving so it should all be waiting for me when I arrive.

(2). Once in Aus, immediately rock up at nearest CASA office and submit initial application: Seems you need to provide foreign license, logbook, medical, and 3 forms: Application for Aviation Reference No (ARN), Application for Flight Crew ID, Application for CASA Authorization on the Basis of Overseas Qualifications.
They approve it and give you an idea of what you, specifically, need to do to obtain an Australian license and issue you with an ARN. Anyone know how long this might take? Do they do it there and then over the counter or could I be waiting weeks?

(3). Visit Doc, obtain Australian Class 1 Medical

(4). Self study for the first exam, CPL Flight Rules and Air Law (CLWA) from Bob Tait’s book (http://www.theaviatorstore.com.au//ProductDetail.asp?ID=35). Budget a week of solid study. Seems you need an ARN to book the exam, anyone know the usual minimum waiting time between the day you log on to http://www.aslexam.com to book and the likely next available exam slot?

(5). Once CLWA passed, ditto for ATPL Air Law (AALW). Self study from Trevor Thom’s ‘Flight rules and Air Law (ATPL) (http://www.theaviatorstore.com.au//ProductDetail.asp?ID=169), again budgeting a week of solid work.

(6). Once AALW passed, self study for the IREX theory exam. This seems to have the reputation of being a pretty tough nut to crack, so budget 2 weeks solid self study using books/example exams by Chis Henry, Chris Markham and Rob Avery.

(7). Research/choose a flying school at Bankstown for the flying element, the aim being to obtain the Command Instrument Rating as required by CASA for the conversion. Haven’t flown a light a/c in a few years and totally unfamiliar with Sydney airspace so budget something like 15 hours training in a Beech Duchess including tests and worst case 3 weeks with wx delays.

COST:
Text books + reference material listed in (1) $1500
Medical $200
CLWA, AALW, IREX Exam bookings $400
Flying (say 15 hours Duchess inc CIR skills test) $5000
CIR Skills Text fee $300
TOTAL $7400

TIME:
CLWA 1 Week
AALW 1 Week
IREX 2 Weeks
Flying (CIR) 3 Weeks
TOTAL 7 Weeks


Does this sound at least semi-realistic?

I’m aware the timing’s pretty tight and dependent on first time exam passes & half-reasonable weather. Without wishing to sound too big headed though, I passed the fourteen UK/JAR written exams, and the UK IR, first time. And as the rain p**ses down though the 5C grey skies outside, believe me, there’s no shortage of motivation!

Sincere thanks in advance for anyone who can provide constructive criticism on the above.

BT :)

[redsnail]

Your costings and time frame don't look too bad. Just remember to add the 20% margins onto every thing.

I am not sure if you're aware that airlines like Virgin Blue require a bit more command time than what you (may) have.
I am not sure as to Jetstar's hours requirements either. You may want to check those out too.

Good luck.

[Bondi Tram]

Thanks for that Reddo, an honour to be answered by such a Pprune legend on my first post!

Yes, I only have 110 hours of ‘pure’ PIC, just over the bare minimum for ATPL issue, and being an F/O, I ain’t getting any more at work. Virgin Blue and Jetstar both want ‘500 hours multi-engine command’ and I doubt they mean PICUS, so I realise that would have to be overcome before applying to them.

Perhaps surprisingly though, Qantas requirements (http://www.qantas.com.au/info/about/employment/pilotsDirectCriteria) state ‘150 hours in command of fixed wing aircraft (excluding ICUS) and 1500 hours First Officer time on turbine RPT operations’, which would only mean renting a C152/Warrior etc for 40 hours of soloing.

I take it the 20% margin is a general ‘things not quite going to plan(!)’ factor rather than anything specific?

Cheers, BT.

[MAX]

SNAP!! In Oz this month during a work break to sort some details. I thought maybe the flying could be done in the sim for the aircraft you are current? Cuts down on retraining to light pistons???

Also license changing process due to change early next year so get moving!

thoughts?

MAX:cool:

[redsnail]

Bondi Tram,
Yep, the 20% was just the "what if" factor. Very important to add. :)

Yes, QF has less command hours required than VB and Jetstar (although, Jetstar is a loco of QF). For your flying, do something interesting. Get your IR sorted etc and take the aeroplane outback, up north or to Tassie and have some fun. :)

As for the 500 hours multi in command.. you're right, they don't mean PICUS. They mean flogging around in a chieftain or bandit etc in the left seat. (or an A320) :D

[N2000]

Yo Bondi

Check your PM's

[Bondi Tram]

Max, the requirement from CASA (having spoken to them and on the website), for ATPL transfer, is that you pass the Australian Command Instrument Rating(CIR). You can do whatever (re)training you need to do get there, be it aircraft or sim. The test can be on any complex multi-engine aircraft, however I think the light ME piston is a better idea in my case, as I’m only current on the A320. That’s a multi-pilot aeroplane so to do a CIR you’d have to find a co-pilot for the other seat, and in any case I reckon hiring an A320 sim even for just a few hours would be considerably more $$$! For me personally, I also think thrashing around in a Duchess would also be much more fun!

Yep, I heard that the whole UK--> Aus conversion process will become much more lengthy and expensive in early 2006 :ooh:, which is why I've got my skates on now!

Thanks for the info, Reddo. Will just have to see how the time and dollars pan out re the grand tour :{

Also for anyone interested, have just found out you can speed up the process considerably by sending the application forms for ARN and Photo License (nos. 1162 and 639, both downloadable from CASA) to your nearest CASA office in Aus before you leave. You need to get both signed and stamped by a ‘CASA Delegate’ which can be an authorised DAME (Australian for AME), of which there seem to be several in the UK (list once again available on the CASA site). It seems you need an ARN number to anything vaguely aviation related in Aus, and this way you can have one before you even arrive. You will also initially be issued with an Australian Student Pliot License.

[UAL Furlough]

Having recently done the ATPL conversion from US to Australia, I think I can give some advice. First, the ARN was done as I waited, but this was an FAA ATP and they could access your stuff online. Not sure about the U.K. but I would think it would be close.

Second, your budget on time for test study looks good. I spent a week on both the air law exams and passed, but barely. You need an 80% on both exams and they are only 30 questions, so not much room for error. The indexes in the Australian references suck, so beware.

I spent about 3 weeks studying for the IREX, but was working full time at the time and I passed that. I found it not to be that hard but I can see where you could mess it up.

I have about 6000 hours, half military and half Part 121, but very little time in small aircraft. It took 8.3 hours of flying in the Beech Duchess to finish the instrument rating and I did it with Bil Whitworth of Whitworth aviation out at Bankstown. He was very reasonable and a good guy to fly with and I really didn't have to learn that much about Sydney airspace, etc. It really was close to the same as any other IFR training. I feel I could have done it in about 5 hours, but I had to get an endorsement on the Duchess along with the IR rating and I hadn't flown in over a year.

CASA sucks, plain and simple. I would recommend that you go to CASA at least 2 times a week during the process as everytime I brought some piece of paperwork back to them and thought I was done, they would have another thing they wanted me to do. Also, make sure that you UK medical is current throughout the period of training in Australia. My US medical had expired and even though I had an Australian first class, they were going to make me go out and get an FAA medical also.

Other than that, I think your plan looks very workable and probably can be done in less time. The weather here is almost always good and you will find that you can probably do all the flying in less than a week.

BTW, I work for Qantas in a desk job and the waiting time for an interview there is currently pretty long, probably 6-12 months after application to do stage 1. Jetstar needs A-320 guys though.

One other thing, you can usually book an exam just about anytime you want. There is usually openings within 1-2 days of logging on. You need the ARN to book the Commercial Air law exam, then need a pass to book the ATP air law exam. You can do the IREX anytime, but I recommend doing it last. If you fail an exam you probably wait a week to do it again, unless you really bomb it, then you have to wait longer. All tests are open book, can bring AIP, charts, CAO\'s CAR\'s, etc in with you.

[Bondi Tram]

VERY interseting UAL, thanks for taking the time. Could you possibly elaborate on the paperchase you say CASA made you go through? As far as I can tell at this stage, the only CASA forms I need to submit are...

1. Application of an ARN (1162)
2. Flight Crew Photo ID/Student Pilot License Application (639)
3. Application for CASA Authorisation on the Basis of Overseas Qualifications (213)
4. ATPL Application (196)

Also, is the IREX booked in exactly the same way as the two air laws? I read somewhere on the casa website you book it through casa (not ASLexam), and that there is only one sitting every month. Is is computer-based and multi-choice too?

Thanks again.

[clockwork]

Bondi

I converted UK - Aus ATPL a couple of years ago. I studied in UK for the exams using Rob Avery's course over the internet and then during a visit to Aus took the exams & completed the IR.

Rob Avery's support was excellent - any questions I had were answered by return of email. Spent about 3 months studying in my spare time to get up to speed. So I was pretty well prepared by the time I went back for the exams. I spoke to ASL from UK to talk over the exam bookings - they were very, very helpful. I also arranged a short IR flying course. Immediately on landing in Aus I went to CASA to get an assessment, then phoned ASL to confirm the exam slots. Pretty hectic, but worked out.

Two other points - getting back into a light twin was a culture shock after flying a big jet for 8 years. Would be worth reading up on whatever type you'll use before going. And CASA were excellent - far more helpful than I could have imagined.

If you have any specific questions would be glad to assist.

Good luck!

[Bondi Tram]

More great info, thanks clockwork.

Could I trouble you just to answer how you got an ARN? Before you left the UK (if so how?) or when you arrived in Aus (in which case did they do it there and then or were you kept waiting while they verified your details with the UK CAA)? Taa.

[clockwork]

Bondi

First of all I got a CASA medical from a doc in UK (MAN) - I think information on qualified AMEs (about a dozen in the UK) is given on the CASA website. The Doc sent the results off to Canberra and a week or so later my medical certificate arrived along with an ARN. Quite handy really!

[MAX]

Bondi,

Once you have your ARN and log onto the exam website a list of all the centres comes up and it seems you can book ASAP as long as their is one avail. It shows which dates are avail and places left for that sitting. Bit of bugger as it leaves me a bit tight to do the CPL law.

How hard is this CPL law and can it be crammed to a pass in say 4 days full study? Bearing in mind i am a geek with no social life.:\

Oh and Bondi, enjoy your new job mate. :ok:

MAX:cool:

[Bondi Tram]

A man of your calibre Max? Surely not a problem ;). Good luck and let us know how it goes though, I wait with baited breath...:p

Thanks again Clockwork. I think I've had all my questions answered for the time being, but may contact you when something else arises (which it no doubt will) if thats ok.