Pay 2005

[L J R]

....well it is the new year, and what better way to get it going than to discuss pay.



Anyone heard of any rumours about the Pay 2005 Case (to be delivered in Feb/March WEF Apr 1).

[November4]

Hope you meant WEF 1 April

[Biggus]

According to the business section of a daily newspaper the RPI figure is currently running at 3.4%, suggesting a pay rise of about that amount!!

However, that nice mister Brown appears to prefer to use the value of CPI (can't remember what that stands for, I think it doesn't include the cost of housing), which is currently 1.5% (government target is 2%). Then again there is RPIX, which is currently at 2.2% (government target 2.5%).

SIMPLE REALLY, ISN'T IT!!

[buoy15]

Biggus

I think the RPI don't include headline inflation which excludes mortgage payments - something % ?

The CPI probably refers to the Civil Service Pay Increase which is probably a bit more than 1.5% Ha!

If I were the cunning Mr Prudent, I would give the lads 10% to boost morale.

Then, when they come back from the sandpit, I could employ a bit of stealth and hit them with a council tax hike of 7%, plus food and accommodation charges of a further 4%, plus a deduction for phone cards and a reduction in LOOA for time in the sun.

Just seen a media release that Phony spent umpty thousands of our tax entertaining footballers and has been celebs at No 10 during 2004.

On a more pertinent note - The UK government has pledged £50m to Asia, The press forgot to mention this is taxpayers money - and the taxpayers have been even more generous by adding to that.

I wonder how much our overpaid politicians, footballers and pop stars have donated to the Asia problem ?

Love many, Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe:ok:

[Ginseng]

For the sake of clarity, CPI = Consumer Prices Index. It is based mostly on the relative cost of consumer products, and neatly excludes other aspects of REAL inflation, such as housing (mortgage) costs and Council Tax. How convenient!

[Biggus]

Last year the new pay rates were announced about now, maybe even slightly earlier. Anything looming on the horizon, or are the government waiting for a good day to bury bad news?

Then again, most of the public wouldn't regard a low (below inflation) pay rise for the military 'bad news'. I suppose some elements of the press might make a fuss vs Black Watch (and the military in general) having done a good job in Iraq to be rewarded for their efforts by poor pay. Who knows? And there is an election looming!

[Vage Rot]

Seem to remember the Chancellor stating explicitly that the CPI was an accounting tool to bring us in line with Euro-land. The normal inflation calculations would still be used for pay calculations etc. Then again, they have stuck by everything else that they have promised haven't they?!!:p

[Lee Jung]

Friday is the bad news day as no one gives a to$$ over the weekend and by Monday it's not news anymore.

Even with an election looming I would expect no more than 2.5%, perhaps 3% if they are feeling generous. Shortage ranks may get more.

It is the MODs poilicy to bring FMQ rates into line with civvy rents so expect the normal hike there.

As far as flying pay goes who knows.

It would be nice if someone with a whole lot of financial accumen could assess the purchasing power of the miltary 9and indeed all public servants) salary now as opposed to ten and twenty years ago. I would think with the large tax increases and house price explosion we have seen it may make interesting reading.

[Hueymeister]

Someone...Beags I think, did a comparison sometime back, and as expected the conclusion was that despite a large pay increase in the late '70's our 'bang for buck' has seriously reduced since the mid-'80's. With an election due to be called soon, with the huge amounts of public spending (The NHS & Welfare State) causing/about to cause large electorial debates the last thing Tony and his boys will do is offer the 'uncool' military a large pay increase.

[Charlie Luncher]

B15

Surley after you get your daily allowance and tax free salary ,because you are out of the Rodina, and on high risk ops money should be the least of your worries:{

Charlie sends
Ill get my coat

[16 blades]

Two things, I fear, are certain:

1. We will get the absolute minimum increase they can get away with.

2. Whatever they give with one hand they will take with the other. FQ charges were put up 22% last year!

16B

[SEngO]

For interest Civil Service and Teachers are on a 3 year agreed pay deal.

For 2005 they get:

Civil Sector 2.95%
Teachers 3.25% (but staged over the year)

Armed forces have traditionally done better than civil and teachers but we will see what they think of us when they announce the rise. I have been unable to find out when the announcement will be made. I am assuming the recommendation is contensious if it is being delayed this long. Last years recommendations were sent away to be done again which resulted in them not being issued until 12 Feb.

So we will have to wait and see ......

[Lee Jung]

Just had the 2SL PLT tell us the AFPBB announcement is to be issued today..........

[tablet_eraser]

For those of us who were stuck on FRESCO a few years back to clear up Prescott's colossal cock-ups viz Firemen, this does stick in the throat. In 2003 all indications were that the Armed Forces were on for a big pay-rise. It seems that in a rare moment of clarity Buff realised how popular he isn't, and thought that persuading the 'independent' AFPRB to give us a big pay rise would get us on side. Though, of course, he claimed it was because we were working so hard on TELIC, PTARMIGAN, FRESCO, etc etc etc......

Instead, Two Jags scotched this and openly admitted that by giving other public sector workers, including teachers, policemen and nurses, a low pay-rise, it would take the wind out of the firemen's sails while they walked off with 16%. Ultimately this was supposed to make everyone happier.

Must be the same logic that dictates that debilitating cuts in the fleet, regiments and Air Force will make our "magnificent" Armed Forces more "flexible" and "deployable".

I reckon we'll be on for a small payrise again, maybe as high as 3.5%, which will be acclaimed by Buff as "a great deal for our fighting men and women".

[WorkingHard]

And dont lets forget the pension at 16/38 year point, tax free gratuity, inflation proofed (and back dated) at age 55. I'm out and have no regrets about leaving earlier than anticipated and I trust I never shall. Not all the military are in mortal danger and not all the military get what they deserve. It is a volunteer force after all so dont stay if you can do better elsewhere. I believe there needs to be a radical re-think on pay/allowances/pensions/"theatre rsik rewards". And for the last item a much more defined circumstance for getting such rewards.

[Maple 01]

I remember the Tories introducing 'phased pay' which was suposed to be a one-off but happenend for several years running - I also remember the only decent pay rise we got out of them was coincidentaly just before an election - so don't expect any better treatment from 'the party of the armed forces':yuk: :yuk:

[charliegolf]

Out of interest, how much does a Flt LT aircrew earn all in, at the end of his first tour these days?

£45, 50k?

When I left the RAF in '87, I got a professional job along with a 45% cut in pay.

Wondered if the gap had closed.

CG

[L J R]

Do they pay people on their first tour?

[gijoe]

Announcement due out on this 22 Feb 05 - i.e. next week.

G:ok:

[Lee Jung]

Our Lords and Masters have probably delayed it as Job Cente staff got 15% (over three years) yesterday.

Not critising them for their hard work or threat to strike, it would just be nice to be recognised for the hard work and sh!t conditions we have to put up with without public comment.

Come on then Mr Soames, how much would YOU give us?

[Vage Rot]

Out of interest, how much does a Flt LT aircrew earn all in, at the end of his first tour these days? £45, 50k?

Hmmm, I must have done something wrong then. not making 50K as PAS. Not far off though!!!!
:p :p :p :O :D :D :ok:

[the_cyclone]

End of first tour Flt lt would earn basic Flt Lt wage with a couple of years seniority and lower rate flying pay; so probably about 35-36K.

[charliegolf]

Cyclone

Thanks for the post. £35-36k. The gap has remained about the same then, from what I can see.

CG

[WorkingHard]

MOD web site lists Flt Lt pay (with 4 years service) as approx £35000 + £12500 flying pay (max) + other allowances. BSA for example up to 4000+ per term. Together with generous pension/gratuity terms does not seem unreasonable. However as I said earlier I believe there should be some major re-alignment with regard to rewards for high risk operations. Such operations and those actually at risk needs to be very much more clearly defined than at present. Award of medals should have the same scrutiny and defenitions. Please let us reward the "front line" people and stop the "jollies" to theatre to qualify for medals should they be granted.

[D-IFF_ident]

I recently did a short survey of a Flt Lt RAF, a Flt Lt RAAF and a USAF Capt (all O-3),with 9 years commissioned service, qualified Pilot, 'Aircraft Commander', 3000 hours; deployed to Operational area 2 months of the year and visiting an Operational area on 2 other occasions, during different months.

Their ANNUAL TAKE-HOME PAY looked something like this:

RAF: £32453.00

USAF: $72046.00 (without retention pay)
AT £1.00 = $1.9: £37919.00

RAAF: AUS$76860.00
AT £1.00 = AUS$2.44 £31500.00

When you factor-in the cost of living, the deployment rates, the age of the aircraft, etc etc, I know where I'd rather be, and it's sunny there.

[k1rb5]

WH

On the subject of medals. I watched a bunch of my mates come home in the back of a C-17 last week three years after some of them qualified for the AFGAN gong for operational flying. Most of them still hadn't been awarded it, yet there are hundreds of (no disrespect intended) blunties sporting thiers. What's that all about??????????

[5 Forward 6 Back]

D-IFF, are your figures accurate? I'm sure that the gross annual basic salary for a Flt Lt with a couple of years in the rank is around £32 000, but with 9 years' service, plus being combat ready, he should at least have £4 500 initial rate flying pay to stick on top of that, plus another couple of increments. Must be closer to £38 000 in the situation you describe.

If you're referring to take-home pay as net post-tax etc pay (sorry, not terribly familiar with the terms) surely it must be less than that?

Unless another couple of increments plus middle/top rate flying pay are going to send my pay to the sort of levels where I take home £32kpa, in which case thanks for the pleasant surprise :}

[StopStart]

5F6B. Pleasant surprises all round then. I take home a bit more than 32kpa. Do I win a bun?

[WorkingHard]

k1rb - exactly the point I was making. AND of those who have the medal already how many "earned" it?

[BEagle]

Presumably the Akrotiri schoolies didn't get it this time.....

[L1011GE]

On the issue of medals the OP Telic medal was awarded to "aircrew" who flew in and out of Kuwait between certain dates.. But the Air stewards and Ground Engineers who were on the same aircraft did not qualify.. a special case had to be submitted, awhich I belive has now been resolved.

The reason I was told by the medal cell is the requirements for the medal is drawn up by the Army?

Plus while I am on my box ..Why do we have to apply for medals ourselves ?? why do the blunties not know who should be awarded them...AND why are they presented in the Sqn registry by a JNCO clerk???

I have 6 medals and none presented properley not even LSGCM ..

Rant over... lets hope for a good payrise. I will be happy with 20%.....in my dreams

[phutbang]

BEagle
Presumably the Akrotiri schoolies didn't get it this time.....
That is correct but they got one out in the UAE...How far?..and I hear that the was an admin cell inside insworth that also qualified...will someone pass me the rules of engagement please!

[WorkingHard]

It is in your hand guys and gals to do something about the blatant injusticies. If the only weapon you have is to embarrass the senior staff then use it to it's full. those who have received something they have no "right" to hate publicity. In any event it really is incumbent upon you to ensure the value of medals is not destroyed by blatant abuse of the system. So post some examples. New thread if you like. Just for the record, I am ex mil, I dislike low flying and I have no time for the whingers (in any walk of life). I believe very strongly there should be proper reward and proper recognition for those who actually earn it.

[Impiger]

We probably should have a new thread on medals but while the debate is raging on this thread my favourite medal anecdote (goes back some years) is:

Troopship on its way from Blighty to somewhere well to the East taking a battalion of the Welsh Guards to an exercise. Stops in Suez - some lads get laid and catch a dose. Dose only becomes apparent as ship nears Singapore so squaddies are off-loaded into the local British Medical Hospital for treatment. Rest of Battalion complete exercise and collect the now fully recovered squaddies on the return trip. Now at the time the Malayan insurgency campaign was in full flow and - you guessed it - the squaddies qualified for the GSM Malaya medal during their enforced lay-over. The rest of the battalion did not and were distinctly unimpressed!

[WorkingHard]

Isnt it lucky that commissions cannot be bought these days? Am I being naieve in that question? Windsors e.g.?

[Fire 'n' Forget]

AonP

If you were with the comedy camping club, then u dont deserve one. You would think the amatuer camping clowns had won the war themselves the way they 'bleat' on.

[Climebear]

L1011GE

'Plus while I am on my box ..Why do we have to apply for medals ourselves ?? why do the blunties not know who should be awarded them...AND why are they presented in the Sqn registry by a JNCO clerk??? '

You have to apply for them yourselves because no-one has funded a system that can accurately tell where everyone is or where they’ve been - funding priorities lie further towards the punchy end. As for being presented with your medals, that is a Command Issue so have I hope your not blaming that on the blunties. If there is a problem then (guessing from your log in) it lies with Engineering Officers (whom I assume you don't count as blunt as your either TG1or 2 and don't count yourself as blunt) and Aircrew Officers.

By the way anyone think that the medals offices that issue these (not manned by Service personnel) have been given any significant increase in resources to cope with Tony's love of medal earning opportunities for our gallant armed forces.

[BEagle]

Have they stopped the nonsense of "Here is your medal, congratulations. And you're not allowed to wear it" which went on with the Kuwaiti and Saudi medals post-GW1?

Used to annoy me seeing spams wearing them when the UK military wasn't allowed to..... Nothing against the spams, I hasten to add, but everything against the faceless people who wouldn't allow us to wear medals legitimately presented by the rulers of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.

[Impiger]

But BEags old chap disallowing the wearing of medals presented by foreign governments is part and parcel of the preservation of the quality of our medals. Can't have cake and eat it!

And yes it still happens - presented a NATO Medal the other day to a matelot who had driven a ship on Active Endeavour the NATO Article V operation that is on-going in the Med. It is a counter-terrorist operation but UK view is that it is not sufficiently arduous or dangerous to merit the wearing of the award - and they're right.

[Spotting Bad Guys]

You have to apply for them yourselves because no-one has funded a system that can accurately tell where everyone is or where they’ve been - funding priorities lie further towards the punchy end

Doesn't Innsworth run a system called OMIS to carry out this very task?

SBG

[5 Forward 6 Back]

5F6B. Pleasant surprises all round then. I take home a bit more than 32kpa. Do I win a bun?

Absolutely; but you're buying :}

[CANTSAY]

Way back in 1952 a Flt Lt and 6 airmen provided a pall bearer service at the King's funeral.

2 medals were handed to them later.

Flt Lt grabbed one of them!!!

The 6 airmen had to draw a lucky dip ticket from a hat for the other medal.

And such inconsistencies still prevail today!!! OMG !!!!!

[MrBernoulli]

I've said it before but I will say it again - there are those of us who deployed for SS2 but, of course, as soon as the Afghan thing kicked off we were involved in both the war and the exercise.

However, the incompetent, negligent dicks who devised the criteria for the Afghan gong still managed to exclude those of us who flew inside Afghanistan airspace, dispensing the ever-necessary gasoline to the fighter, bomber and recce trade. How is it that only aviators who flew in theatre AFTER the intense conflict ended get the gong and those of us there at kick-off don't? It beggars bloody belief! Since when was 1 Dec a sensible starting date for the medal?

If I ever meet anyone remotely involved with setting up this gong I will have their £*****g guts out and shove the stuff down their miserable throats! How can they be allowed to keep their sh1tty little jobs! Nincompoops!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

[BEagle]

Eloquently put, Mr B...

Any luck with an airline job yet? The RAF's loss of yet another skilled aviation professional will doubtless benefit yet another airline....

[HOODED]

Why has a thread about the 2005 pay award become about medals? To get back to the thread I can see us getting above inflation this time just! but it being taken back as usual by the above inflation rises in food, accommodation etc etc. Still there will be less people to pay by the years end, and those remaining will be working much more than 3% harder as a result, so another win by spin from the government.:yuk:

[WorkingHard]

Hooded - quite right get back to pay. But to answer the question perhaps you dont compare in general with other occupations and thetefore will not merit an infation busting increase. With whom is a comparison to be made including ALL benefits (and drawbacks)?

[Spotting Bad Guys]

MrB

I think you and I must have been at Seeb at the same time! I stayed in theatre for a total of three 6-week rotations, commencing on October 5th 2001, and yet it's only the last of the three that counts! Bizarre thinking from the policy makers....

SBG

[HOODED]

WH, Inflation busting indeed I said higher just! My guess being that the Govt has lost a number of servicemen this year due to it's policies to fight an unpopular war. As such with an election coming up a small above inflation rise would look good but then take it all away and more by increasing charges. We can't be compared with other occupations the military is different by it's nature. I hear CAS is surprised at the high take up of the redundancy offer with figures like 10 times oversubscribed and 80% of those eligable applying etc. If that is true then CAS may wish to see an above inflation rise given the true feeling within his force that these figures suggest.

[foldingwings]

Just Announced! 3%

[FORMER PIONEER]

WOO-HOO!!!

Must rush out and spend it, all at once.........:rolleyes:

[Sideshow Bob]

Here's the link

http://www.mod.uk/linked_files/issues/afprb_rpt2005.pdf

The only good point is NCA now go onto higher rate flying pay at their 18 year point, insted of 22 years. (As of 1 Apr 05)

[Anita Bush]

................. and for the first time in ages, more than the MPs (2.8 %). Although I haven't seen the figures for their allowances etc.

[The Maintainer]

Direct quote from the Defence Internal Brief on the subject:
Commenting on the award, Geoff Hoon said: 'This pay increase is thoroughly deserved. It has been a challenging year for the Armed Forces and I continue to be impressed with their commitment and achievements.' Warms the cockles, doesn't it..? Might have been better if he'd said nothing, rather than this somewhat pathetic platitiude.

[D-IFF_ident]

So I read Mercer's report at www.ome.uk.com and noted that the UK gets BETTER pay than the USA. At base rates that is, but the DoD awards a Basic Allowance for Housing (BAH) to everyone who elects to live of base and provides free accommodation to those electing to live on base. So I wouldn't trust a survey that appears to focus on Base Pay. Furthermore, I'd take a good look at the standard of living, morale-boosting facilities for deployed personnel etc.

Secondly, there is no mention of Contribution in Lieu of Council Tax (CILOCT) in this year's report. Indeed, there hasn't been a mention of it since 2002. A letter to Binnsworth reveals that 'the regulations are contained in AP3392, sir'. Upon questioning the statute or Act that permits the MoD to take CILOCT from our pay Binnsworth say 'AP3392 IS the regulation, sir.' So, on asking to which local authority my CILOCT is paid I'm told that that information is not available. Any thoughts?

Edited because I just finished reading - RAF STAFFORD and UKSU RAMSTEIN? How many front line aviators got their views heard in those locations then?

[hyd3failure]

Well you can moan all you like about the pay rise but I for one am gonna take it. If the rest of you don't want yer 3% then I'll have yours.

I suppose its fair game to mank about pay and allowances and rightly so. Wouldn't be fun if we couldn't have a mank....

I did notice though that Flying Maintainers are going to have their Flying pay related to the task....thats been muted for some time.. might see a few moaning maintainers now then

Edited because I just finished reading - RAF STAFFORD and UKSU RAMSTEIN? How many front line aviators got their views heard in those locations then If the aircrew at these bases didn't get to have their say, then that is not the due to the AFPRB not wanting to hear their voices. That would have been a management issue. The list of establishments visited by the AFPRB is at appendix 4 and is quite substantial. Every one at those bases would have been given the opportunity to have their say.

[Manuel Hung]

Having read (quickly) through the AFPRB link, it seems that when the new LSA rates (14 of them) come into effect, you have to do 300 days for each increment jump! Should i read it again or has any one else noticed this? So for level 14 you would have to do nigh on 14 years away! Winner.

[Lowkey]

Clucking Bell. 3 months from getting the first FRI and they bin it. Serves me right for keeping my fingers crossed. Knowing my luck it will come back in again just as I leave! Glad to see the SFA rates have eaten away half the increase again. Oh well, I feel valued and looked after. "RANT OVER" sorry all!

[Yeller_Gait]

Given continued NCA
manning shortages and the end of the NCA FRI in 2006, we agree that the NCA
qualification period for the top rate of Flying Pay should be reduced from 22 to 18 years
to bring NCA into line with Officers

It is good to see that some of the inequalities of the system are being addressed, and a nice little unexpected bonus to boot!!!

I assume that as nothing has been said about the continuing, or otherwise, of PAS, then nothing has changed, again good news.