Hand flown?

[Super Cecil]

A question to your Airline blokes, how much of your hours are actually hand flown? Would this figure change from domestic to International? If you had a choice would you like to actually hand fly more? On long haul stuff would George be on more than 90% of the time?, if so how do you keep current, on the Sim?

Can you practice landings in the sim? if you only get every second landing flying international stuff, would you only do 5 or 6 every hundred hours?

[404 Titan]

Super Cecil

On long haul it is more like 99% on autopilot and short haul 90%. That said, in the last twelve months I have only done two CAT 3 approaches for real which requires an Auto Land. I always hand fly the departure to clean and the approach from joining the ILS. Anyone can fly the plane in straight and level. The practice and currency is most relevant on departure and approach and most I would imagine keep themselve up to speed. The way my outfit works is the sims are used for checking. They aren’t really designed for practice even though one is called Recurrent Training. They are really checking your proficiency, so you had better get it right first time otherwise it gets written up in your file.

[Keg]

Hand flying takes up such little percentage of the 'stick hours' because it's such a little percentage of the job. 'Managing' the flight is equally important to being able to fly the approach. Both require effective skills.

At the end of the day, I think we'd all like a bit more 'hands on' than we actually get but that is the nature of the beast. The sims at QF are pretty slick for most things so I've got no dramas practising and learning in them. However, for currency (as opposed to recency) and training and development beyond the ab initio phase for the aircraft type, nothing beats departures and approaches in the real thing! :}

[enicalyth]

Hi Superman!

Long time no see! lemme see. Mostly hand flown.

Firewall the throttles and count to ten. Brakes off count to forty-five and pull back on yoke. The 74 is a low wing monoplane, Ces, flies just like a Piper. Far too much automatics to learn so I hand fly in shirtsleeves with my tie outside my pants. Leaving SYD your tie points at the floor but after some hours yoke-gripping it drifts round to the ceiling. Sure sign you’ve crossed the equator so I do a slow aileron roll to put her the other way up. All hand flown.

She’s a high wing monoplane now, Ces, flies just like a Cessna. Roundabout now I put George on. You see up there in cruise four engines is too many, three’s enough. So I shut the engines down one at a time and do a bit of spot maintenance. In high wing monoplane mode engine access is dead easy and the cowls hinge down not up. Plenty storage space for the tools and bits you dismantle. Don’t want them dropping off all over Kazakhstan.

If there is anything that needs a lot of attention I take it back into First Class where there is plenty of room and get the hosties to put a few newspapers down. Usually they oblige with a pair of silk undies to burnish up those combustor cans and a gossamer bra to and fro in the turbine roots sure gets rid of that dirt.

I figure all the time that George is on I might as well be doing something useful so I enjoy giving those engines a good workover.

Getting towards dangle dunlops time and LHR I aileron roll her back, not forgetting to put the seat belt signs on because we’re in the Northern hemisphere now. No computer on earth, Ces, can handle that roll. You know why? They should have fitted the darn thing in the cockpit, Ces, that’s why.

Geez those Pommies are slack! I know it’s 0500 local but I nearly always have to order the First to parachute out and sort out the landing details personally. All part of that crew resource management thingy that we spend so much time on.

If so I put George back on, nip out for a shower and scrub the fingernails from all that oil and grease.

Now one thing I’ve learnt is to let the passengers think they are smarter than you. No autoland is ever as good as the hand flown thing but I leave it on deliberately. That way when we land with the brisk clump advised by Mr Boeing the passengers wink knowingly at each other and I berate the First over the PA for a clumsy effort. He doesn’t mind, having parachuted into West Drayton he can’t hear.

Mostly done by hand Ces, except when I take the hosties back to the hotel. Nothing done by hand there I assure you. How about y’self?

If you're ever passing Eastwood NSW 2122 just do that, Ces, just do that.

[splatgothebugs]

100% hand flown, but you get use to it even though it would be nice to have an AP.

splat:ok:

[Super Cecil]

Splat, I did switch one on once but the DG precessed that much if I'd left it on it would have done a 360 in 10 minutes.

Thanks KEG and 404 Titan it about what I thought, I'm sure you must get a bit frustrated or maybe your too busy?

enicalyth, by your reply you must get a bit frustrated too but it sounds like your a real "hands on" sort of guy so it should'nt be a problem.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Yup in the 767 I hand fly to flaps up and disconnect at 1000' on finals...often more like 500 on finals....so on an average trip I might get 3 minutes handflying in an 8-12hr sector.

It's deemed more important these days to be very 'current' i.e. good with the automagics rather than hand flying....occasionally I'll hand fly up to 20k and down from 10k when I'm feeling playfull but that really loads up the pnf...."how about we whistle in and do a hand flown/Flight Directors off visual approach?" scares the crap outa most of them....even some captains:E

If you have not got your hand flying/scanning skills bedded in by the time you reach a long haul widebody you never will...that is why many young F/Os, who have been in jets since 300hrs, can't do a crosswind landing to save themselves but can usually work the automagics extremely well...if tending to believe them infallible rather too often.

Under Jar Ops even sim recurrent is done on the autopilot from first pitch change (flap retraction) until 500' on finals..except for one mandatory excercise where you are positioned on right base and hand fly from right base through a manual assy ILS and manual missed approach.

From A-B in a Boeing/Airbus is not about flying an aeroplane it's about managing a mass transport system....it still can be fun...just not as much fun as bushflying was...better paid though...and when I think about Ian Leslie, whom I've known for nearly 18 yrs, dying in his C185 last week in an area he's been flying around for 30 yrs it keeps the longhaul boredom in perspective.

[tinpis]

Prolly Chuck as I see it the problem with wrestling with the shiny levers is what yer forgotten to arm/turn on/off.
Or not been payin attention to while yer doin Biggles impersonations

Hand fly go rent a Cub or C 185

[185skywagon]

if you're ever through charleville, and i am there, and you have a licence to fly small wheel at the back types, we'll go for a blat in the 185. not an instructor, but have 1800hr in the 185.
cheers.

[tinpis]

Hope its not a pussy one with lectric flaps?
Its gotta have crazed windscreen and oil leakin over it as well.
Oh 260 HP load her up to the gunnels with nonreflectives.

[185skywagon]

hey tin,
you dunno much bout 185's. dis one got 300 neddies with the big lever for flap. try not to let too much oil on the screen. mostly carry cut up horses and roos around, then throw em out in an orderly fashion.

[Chimbu chuckles]

185skywagon I have about 600hrs on C185s....used to instruct in PNG on them. Used to take 300+hr newbies and do their initial tailwheel endorsement followed by about 20- 30 hrs route endorsing to the mountain strips before letting them loose to scare themselves...none of them ever ground looped one so must have been doing something half right....one was later killed in an islander but all the rest now grace the left/right seat of widebodies. Unfortunately C185s were an indangered species by then hence only the 600 odd on type in between 1000s on Islanders/Twotters etc.

Tinpis agree completely...handflying a modern jet is not flying it as it was designed to be flown...driving them through the interface of HDG SEL/VNAV/LNAV/FLCH/VSand autothrottle still takes a little skill and when the whole approach falls nicely into place thanks to your correct programing there is a sense of satisfaction...and the automagics aren't completely idiot proof...between ATC and the limitations of VNAV it takes some knowledge and fingers dancing across the MCP for it all to work seemlessly. Very often VNAV, if not 'tricked' with a 'work around' will bring you in hot and high and you end up with the speed brake out most of the way down...if ATC slow you up you end up very high on profile very quickly too...and that happens more often that not:(

A big aeroplane like a 767/744/A330/A340 etc is NOT the place to be practicing your best Walter Mitty impersonation.

Having said that I am forever thankfull that my first 2500 odd jet hours were flying short sectors in the F28 in PNG...all hands, feet and brain...most excellent fun:ok:

MOST guys flying widebodies (certainly those from airforce/GA and over, say, 35) on long haul do have plenty of handflying in their past lives and still take inordinate pride in a nice crosswind landing...and then we get to play in the sim after all the BS is finished:E

[tinpis]

Dont the newer model 185 have lectric flaps?
185 man the last time I flew a 185 was prolly before you were born:}

[185skywagon]

tin,
the 180 and 185 never never ever ever had electric flaps. Manual right up till the last ones came off the line in 1984/5. apparently, Cessna tried to think about doing it but were howled down by the Alaskan bush pilots.
my 185 is the same age as me, born 1962.
185E's got 300 hp in 1965. just converted mine last year through STC.

[Feather #3]

Chuck,

With the greatest respect, one major problem I see both on the line and from accident/incident reports is that folks don't know WHEN it's time to disconnect and hand-fly because of the emphasis on the use of automatics.

Vertical offsets due to poor vectoring onto the [more correctly NOT onto!:* ] the 25/24 ILS' in LAX would be a prime example, but others exist.

Had to ROFL at the "FDS Off and hand-fly the visual approach"; it's raised a few eyebrows. the key in all this is to find the appropriate balance!:D

G'day ;)

[tinpis]

Done a bit of time in 185's with the trim wheel on the roof seen them 185driver?

[185skywagon]

tin,
heard about the roof trim on super spreading 180/185's. reckon they were good when you got used to it.

[Chimbu chuckles]

feather # 3

Man I agree to some extent...been on the 767 for only a little over 1 year and I still get chided gently for wanting to spice things up occassionally...only I might add in really nice weather and only when coming into our home port which is virtually our own private airfield...not much traffic....current numbers and circumstances point heavily to a command later this year so perhaps I'll have to wait a little longer to practice handflying as much as I'd like...without the request being summarily denied in a few cases or allowed in most cases...but with a 'deer caught in the headlights' look...to haughtily supported in a very few cases.

An example that still causes a smile when I recount the story over beers....this captain has since left for pastures greener:ugh: was a very nice chap but had flown nothing but 757/767 since 250hrs TT....and did it very well I might add.

I asked to be allowed to fly a visual approach into home base on a cavok afternoon...ok...now I'm gonna turn off everything (AP/FD/AT) at 10k and just whistle in and do a true visual approach, ok? Ummm....ok. So I did just that...high speed below 10 slowing down JUST in time to configure JUST in time at each point in the approach...no speed brake...my feerless leader wanted to clutter up my PFD with the ILS...no it's ok I'm doing a visual...I got it anyway...and he was clearly uncomfortable from about 4000' to landing, which was a greaser. Man I had the biggest smile, it was just great fun..all done I might add as per SOP, nothing ragged or borderline. After we parked and checklists complete I thanked him and he told me how very close I had come to having the approach taken off me at 1000'...because the flaps were still travelling from 20 to 30 and I didn't call for the checklist until 950'...it's 4 items long:uhoh:

That was a standard arrival in previous jets I have flown but is most UNUSUAL here...that's ok it's their train set.

Soon after checking to line I was on approach to a middle eastern port and the preceeding aircraft was very slow vacating...we were asked to fly an orbit at about 1500'. Now at that altitude you're all locked up with 3 autopilots flying the aircraft and the only options (I thought) are hit the GA button or disconnect everything..I didn't want a full blown GA so disconnected and called for gear up/flaps 20 and flew a gentle right hand orbit in the dark....with the senior checkie madly pressing buttons and twisting the HDG knob to get me set up for re engaging the autopilot....I had really loaded him up when he should have been just sitting calmly monitoring and talking on the radio. It bothered me a lot. After we landed I asked him what I should have done because it was obvious to me that there was a hole in my knowledge I didn't realise I had until that unusual circumstance presented itself. He was very relaxed about it (that's his nature) and said what I had done was ok and well flown etc but the better option would have been hit GA to get out of approach mode, followed closely by FLCH (flight Level Change) or VS and then HDG SEL.

Now FLCH attempts to drive you to the altitude in the window in 2 minutes (or if it can't it maintains the IAS at the moment of selection and opens the speed window so you can manually adjust IAS) and as we had 2500' set in the window it would have been a nice gentle climb with moderate thrust...the auto throttles would not have had time to set GA thrust by the time I pressed FLCH...and HDG SEL could have turned us around until we were back on an intercept heading where I could have simple armed approach again and called for gear down as we intercepted the LOC. Elegantly simple and minimal work for a crew that was a little tired at the end of a 9 hr sector in the wee small hours of the morning.

VS (verticle speed) on the other captures whatever VS you have at the moment of engagement and will happily fly away from assigned altitude...in this case missed approach alt. So if I'd hit GA and quickly hit VS I would very likely still be descending and perhaps a tired crew might not notice for 30 seconds and you end up in a descending turn to dangerously low altitude. No problem if you're aware and immediately follow selection of VS with a twist of the wheel to +500-1000'/min and then select HDG AND then twist to whatever you desire...short of 181 degrees from your present HDG lest the aircraft suddenly turn the other way.

I think next time it happens I'll be using FLCH.

I believe these two examples encapsulate the extremes. On the one hand it is good to hand fly where appropriate to maintain manual skills/judgement...but if you HAVE to turn the automagics off you have fecked up....and you need to be very sure what buttons you're pressing and what the result will be...that takes significant time on type...I reckon it took me 8+ months before the FMA became an integral part of my scan and I knew exactly what button to push and exactly what the result would be even when I was barely awake at the end of a longhaul...certainly the case in the less regularly used modes...99.9% of aproaches being the same...SID to ILS in reasonable weather.

With three autopilots the chances of all being unavailable is remote in the extreme...in fact when we are given those circumstances in sim recurrent it requires so many systems failures that the excercise is quite unrealistic...an ETOPS certified aircraft just couldn't be in that situation (OK never say never but you get my point). If one trips off from a system failure select another..it's that simple....then fly the aircraft via the MCP (mode control panel) and action the appropriate checklists in a calm and methodical manner as a team rather than one guy handflying and the other beavering away in the other seat essentially alone.

As I disconnected that night in the ME I had in my mind the Gulf Air A320 that speared in in similar circumstances...mode confusion, lack of handling skills, dark night and ginning around doing orbits at 600' all contributed.

Edit....A C180/185 with electric flaps...never heard of such a thing...how would you 'jack' it off the ground at the bitter end of a muddy crap strip with a girlie flap lever?:E

[Feather #3]

As with most of your posts, Chuck, a fascinating insight!! Thanks.

G'day ;)

PS Not that I'd have the C180/185 any other way, but if you're stuck in a muddy spot with electric flaps, what about starting the takeoff roll with full flaps, pull the a/c into ground effect, then hold it a couple of feet while you bleed the flap to the takeoff setting and climb away?

Ohhh.....don't try this at home [or Marawaka these days I guess; it must be sealed by now!?:ok: ]

[Chimbu chuckles]

yeah that'd work....reminds me of dragging Dennis' 402s out silly places...charge down the strip...nose wheel off and light on the mains select the next stage of flap (aircraft balloons into the air about 2 feet)...hesitate for a second and then gear up..accelerate level and sneak the flaps up...turning and climbing away from the ridgeline right in front of you...attain blue line speed someway down the valley...hope to christ engine doesn't splutter cause you'll almost certainly die....youthfull exuberance/bush flying at it's best and just plain stupid...I'll let others judge. :uhoh:

Although in all honesty the above hardly rated on the 'stupid scale' of PNG bushflying...I think my best stupid was pulling 40 bags of coffee + one cargo boi sitting on top the bags out of Heiwieni in old RDB[P2-GKR in your day F#3?) (200 series twotter)....I was MILES away before I was game to start creeping up the flaps...a record I can safely say will never be broken out of that airstrip:E:}:sad: In fact I'm not sure I would have got away with it in RDA/RDE/RDF/RDC/RDG...old RDB was a special Twotter...she saved me from myself several times:ok:

Marawaka sealed......ROFLMAO:ok:

[Super Cecil]

How much does a bag of Coffee weigh?

[tinpis]

Good question cant remember but allowing for memory. it was a hessian sack fulla beans same sorta bag spuds come in.
I would say Chuck took the equivalent of 40 smallish Kanakas :}

[Feather #3]

Just for the record, I only working for TAL P/L and the newest in the fleet was C402A VH-GKB [maybe /C had arrived before I left.]

G'day & hope you're all having a Happy New Year!:D

[Torres]

Series 200 Twotter GKR was the lightest Otter. When we stripped it out for the Kiunga – Tabubil shuttles contract, it came down to around 2,950 kg MT weight in freight configuration – giving a disposable payload of 2,300 kg (5,251 kg – 2,950 kg).

The average Series 300 was around 3,700 kg MT weight – giving a disposable payload of 2,000 kg (5,700 kg – 3,700 kg).

Talking of GKR, “Flash” was the undisputed King on the Kiunga – Tabubil shuttles, having completed a record 12 shuttles in one day, carrying cement and drilling mud. (Think the return flight time averaged around 52 minutes? The contract was based on a per shuttle rate, not on flight times.)

Feather #3. GKB should not have been the “newest” unless you were there in the late ‘60’s, or if in the late 80’s a lot of other C402’s had been pranged or sold. GKB arrived around 1968 and was purchased principally to operate the Reg 203 services. In the late 70’s, we “re allocated” registrations (to remove the non Talair registrations – e.g. WDB etc) and registrations were allocated in serial number order. For example, BN2 P2-ISA had an earlier serial number than ISB; C402 P2-GKB had an earlier serial number than GKC etc. I think GKB was one of the few aircraft to retain it’s original registration.

Sorry .... Just noticed you "only working for TAL P/L" so assume you were there in 1968 when GKB arrived and Reg 203 operations commenced.

[Chimbu chuckles]

50kg/bag from memory....RDB was also lighter on the controls than any other Twotter I have ever flown and climbed better than every other 200 series Talair had...almost like a 300...flying RDB was a joyfull experience where as RDE/RDC and particularly RDF were depressing by comparison...she was 'my' Twotter in Wau.

Old GKB was a great flying 402...except for the short nose (which made CofG a little problematic) and no crew door...the preferred aircraft for most of us if we were going to pull a load out of somewhere a 402 had no right being in the first place. GKE/COJ were better IFR aircraft but as a VFR bush aeroplane GKB was hard to beat.

[Super Cecil]

So the load was 2 Ton? how long was the strip and what height?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Now you testing the memory banks...I have a vivid mental image of the place in my minds eye...it was probably 3000 amsl (elevation-probably 6000 DA, not that high by PNG standards) and 400m long...It was deep in a curved valley and you couldn't fly a circuit so you approached up this thin, deep, blind valley...pull the power back as you pass that rock outcrop...flaps out by the grass hut just above you on the valley side...and keep following the valley around until you stumble over the threshold on about 100' finals...you were committed to land or crash very close to the strip from LONG before you actually saw the strip on very short finals. The first probably 100m was actually downhill at probably 3-4% and then there was a perenially muddy section maybe 30m wide and then about a 7% upslope for the last few hundred meters....if you didn't look very low when you spotted the strip (because of the initial downslope) then you were too high and only had say 250m to land and stop....usually from mid morning on you had about 8kts tailwind (adiabatic?)....You REALLY needed to touchdown on the downslope:uhoh:

The same load out of multitudinous other strips would have been a doddle...we used to fall off the end of places like Satwag (4500'/ dead flat but like an aircraft carrier) not quite at flying speed but you had a huge valley to fall into and it was all downhill to Wasu (6 minutes) on the coast and dump the coffee and pick up a load of whatever and head back into the hills.

At Heiweini you had say 250m to get airborne and then you had to climb over the threshold (through an area of sink caused by the now headwind) and back along the valley.

Hard to believe sometimes that this was all 'airline' flying...Talair was an airline in every respect...one of the biggest 3rd level airlines in the world at the time.

Edit: I should point out to the young an impressionable readers amongst us that when we were in the bush we didn't often (knowingly) structurally overload the aircraft. I don't believe I was this day and Torres figures above tend to confirm that...what Torres and his mates put in our aircraft at main ports was a slightly different story:ok: . It would be true however to say we were often heavier than might be deemed smart for the conditions however I don't believe a P chart exists for the type of strips we are talking about. Off steep strips with elevated thresholds there was no way in the world you would stop once you had gone 100m so an engine failure on takeoff at these places you just muddled through with whatever theory you believed would be the least likely to kill you...mine was to reduce the thrust on the good engine just enough to maintain directional control and go off the end as fast as possible and hope to christ I could then build up speed in a dive and fly away...or crash somewhere relatively flat and soft under some semblance of control...off places like Heiweini an engine failure at any weight was VERY likely a fatal scenario.

I think it's probably true to say of most of us that we were a fairly fatalistic bunch...we had all lost LOTS of friends killed, and every year a few more. By the same token we were young and having a lot of fun...so you just kept throwing on one bag extra until you scared yourself and then next time loaded one bag less and that was your max load from that strip...and that was as scientific as load control got...Cof G has a different rule of thumb for each aircraft....CofG was something I personally took a lot more seriously than weight.

It was just a wonderfull place to be at a wonderfull time and with a wonderfull (mostly) bunch of guys.

[OzExpat]

Your memory hasn't failed you Chuck. I've got a record of the elevation of Heiweni as 3362 feet AMSL, but that's probably just an average figure... :D

[tinpis]

Ok wheres Heiweni

Thats about the same fatalistic attitude I took Chuck I guess the only reason Im sitting here typing is because nothing went wrong.
100% agree with your comments on the Cof G rather than the load being important remember those old short nose 402's being very cranky on approach if to far aft ! ! ! :ooh:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Heiweni is about 10-15nm WSW of Wau...just not far the other side of Mt Kaindi...out through the Sunshine Gap and turn left...or out through the Kudgeru Gap and turn right.

Yup..the only reason I'm typing this is that the couple of occassions things went terminal mechanically I wasn't at places like Heiweni....it wasn't something I remember worrying about but I do remember feeling a sense of having 'got away' with something when, after 8.5 yrs of it, I joined Air Niugini. Ian Leslie is proof to me you cant do that style of flying indefinately....sooner or later it'll kill you.

You knew you were 'a little aft' in a C185 when you selected flaps 40 and the control column went to the forward stop...so you landed flaps 20-30:}