150 Hr CPLs

[Maximus B]

I wonder if reviewing training whether CASA or the other organisations will look at CPL training.

Like the 150 hours. Wouldn't trust a lot of them in the circuit.

Or CSU, why??? If the requirement was just 100 kts then you could do a CPL in a 172 or Worrier and spend the extra CSU $$$$ on more (valuable) hours.

My view, minimum 250 - CPL and 500 for passengers!!!

:E

[Icarus2001]

Maximus you seem to be contradicting yourself. You obviously believe that "a lot" of 150 hour trained CPLs are not competent and then you suggest that removing CSU training would make them better pilots? What would you suggest that they use the additional time doing?

By suggesting an arbitrary figure of 250 hours for a CPL you have failed to identify what the deficiencies are now and how another 100 hours would be used to rectify them.

If you do not know why they require CSU/complex aircraft time then I suggest that you are not really qualified to comment. Sure you are entitled to an opinion but in the interests of perspective...
How many 150 hour CPL holders have you flown with that makes you feel qualified to belittle "a lot" of them? What sort of licence do you have and what kind of flying do you do?

[Maximus B]

Icarus

Obviously we are sooooo different to the booming aviation industry in NZ we need CSU. I mean how could you call youself professional until you've paid at least $200 and hour to rent an aeroplane!!!!

What rubbish. Landing, flying, spins, stalls short fields and emergencies is what makes a pilot. Pushing one more lever to get 25/25 teaches SFA.

Besides, what is the point in learning to fly an Arrow when your first job might be flying a 172 out of Merimbula???

If you are gonna have a 'basic' CPL, then make it realistic.

After 200 hrs post CPL 172 time you'd have to do a refresher on anything else anyway.

I'd suggest perhaps you worry more about the utilisation of your complex aircraft and less about basic flying skills, I'd go further and suggest this is why CASA came up with the anomoly in the first place, short sighted industry pressure to sell PA180/TB10/C182 time........

150 Hr CPLs, yup. I wouldn't even rent most of em a plane let alone pay them to fly it. But then, there are always exceptions.

Max

[NAMPS]

Hmmm....

My view, minimum 250 - CPL and 500 for passengers!!!

Yep, an extra 100 hrs tooling about the BK LOE in calm and cloudless conditions is going to make a huge difference :zzz:


Besides, what is the point in learning to fly an Arrow when your first job might be flying a 172 out of Merimbula???

Then again it might not.

[cubnut]

"I'd go further and suggest this is why CASA came up with the anomoly in the first place, short sighted industry pressure to sell PA180/TB10/C182 time........"

Nice conspiracy theory. I can just see the men in black wringing their hands cungering up ways to make people buy arrow ratings.

:=

But I see some of what your saying. Lots of the first 150hr courses are starting to spew their product into the job market. But I think that most operators would rather not have the bad eggs and screen them out. After all, an accident will put a small operator under real quick. Anyway there not all bad, just lacking 50-100hours flying time than what you had when you got your CPL. And lets face it 50-100 hours is bugga all. Supervision is the back stop untill 500hours or so.

cub.

[dude65]

Maximus B

How would you suggest those 100 hours are spent. Circuits in a C150 or how about Kingaroy and back 3 times a week. Real world experiance only comes from working in the REAL WORLD, not flying from A to B for the hell of it. You got to start somewhere and at the moment that somewhere is 150hr.

Interesting you mentioned $$$. Your proposal would add
$20 000 to the cost of a CPL. That's great if you have that sort of cash sitting in a Bank account.


If you could answer 2 questions for me.

1. How many hours were required when you did your CPL?

2. How did you pay for it?

You can answer Icarus2001's questions before you answer mine

[Maximus B]

dude

way back then it was 200 hrs.

but i still didn't think I had the experience needed to fulfil the faith put in me by passengers.

How did i pay for it, hour by hour, $ by $.

Do I fly for a living now. No way :E

I make too much $$ for that ;)

Cub. Where would I get the hours? Like this. Do and sit the CPL at 150 or 200 (who cares). Then you and your mates go group hire a bugsmasher and travel around Australia.

Alternatively, a scheme like that in the UK (does it still exist???) where a CPL needs (needed??) 500 hours but a PPL with 200 and the CPL subjects (and instructor rating) could instruct.

Whatever.

I know there is a fair bit of tunnel vision going on, but you all also whinge about the 'work for nothing' brigade.

It is a simple equation, tighten supply by increasing quality and the demand curve will move accordingly.

Max

[Icarus2001]

I agree with you on one thing so far Maximus,I know there is a fair bit of tunnel vision going on

Again I ask: How many 150 CPL holders have you flown with recently for you to form such a low opinion of their worth?

I did my CPL in the late 1980s when it was, shock horror, 175 hour minimum but a Class 4 IR (NVFR) rating was required, which makes the hours required about the same!

Landing, flying, spins, stalls short fields and emergencies is what makes a pilot Do you really think that being good at stalls and spins is relevant to conducting a charter flight with paying passengers?

The criticism I receive and (listen to) from commercial operators running a flying business carrying fare paying passengers is that the flying skills are generally okay but there is no sense of "business" or a prepardness to get dirty doing a 50 hour oil change in the hangar.

Maximus, you sound like a sad amateur pilot lamenting the good old days. The older you get the better you were?

For the record I have flown with, tested, checked etc about fifteen CPL holders this calendar year. What about you Maximus?

[Maximus B]

Icarus

On a hot gusty day with 4 POB in a 172, yes I do think it is important to recognise and deal with a stall/spin.

On 150 Hr CPLs we will have to agree to disagree. In the last 5 years I have 'flown' with about 6. Of those I'd rent a plane to 1.

All of the employers i know do lament the inability to do an oil change (so...TEACH IT) they lament the inability to confidently fly the aeroplane, none yet (and there are many) have ever worried about businessacuman. That either comes or they join QANTAS.

How many have I tested. Nil. I made that clear. I gave away any thoughts of a career in aviation when I realised the slim profits make for a backbiting industry interested only in squeezing blood from a stone, not a quality product.

Call me what you will, but in a way I do lament the old days, before the 'K-mart' schools started seroiusly CHURNING CPLs who, with little else to do, become uninspiring, poorly paid (or unpaid) instructors awaiting the call that never comes.

Let PPLs with 500 hours teach, put some competition in the PPL training market :)

[dude65]

QUOTE

The criticism I receive and (listen to) from commercial operators running a flying business carrying fare paying passengers is that the flying skills are generally okay but there is no sense of "business" or a prepardness to get dirty doing a 50 hour oil change in the hangar.

Icarus
You are spot on with this statement.

Being proficient at stalls, spins etc. are signs of good piloting skills but they don't necessarily make you a good employee. The pilot who goes to work every day thinking about how he/she can increase the value of the business they work for is far more valuable. It's not just about flying, everyone can do that. Nothing worse than hearing staff complaining about the phone constantly ringing. They'll be complaining a lot more when it's not ringing. If I ran a GA operation I'd take the person with 150hr and some good communication skills over someone with 250hr and the personality of a Besser Brick.

[Maximus B]

In the diving industry instructors are taught basic customer skills. So who would you pick, a 150 or a 250 both with front office training.

Better still, who would you pay!!!!

Max

[Obiwan]

Whilst I have no dreams (anymore) of a career in aviation - I occasionally check out flying schools. Noticed some schools are offering courses that include first aid, marketing, customer service, GA ops and team building. No changing oil unfortunately. Still - better than the sausage factory approach.

[dude65]

Max
I'd pick whoever is going to be an asset to my business. I'd have no problems paying someone who makes me more money

Obiwan
Don't get me started on flying schools. I thought tradesman were a nightmare but they have nothing on some of the flying schools I've contacted

[Menen]

What's wrong with only 150 hours? Up there in Asia there are guys flying as second in command of big jets with only 250 hours in their log books and no command time on twins. Mind you, the risk factor is higher but the fares are real cheap.

[bushy]

Dude 65
I agree with much of what you are saying. Too many new pilots are very ready to belittle GA, and in fact amny of them are not yet capable of being a good GA pilot. They need support and supervision for a long time before they can be relied on to do the job. Attitude is so important, and the temporary ones who are just going to fill in time till the inevitable airline job comes up next year??? are really not much use.
An interesting question. How many hours do RAAF pilots have when they get their wings?

[cubnut]

Quoted from dude65: "They need support and supervision for a long time before they can be relied on to do the job."

Too right.

This is the point that you are forgetting max. Or if you agree with this then you should have already used this in your point making at some stage in your argument. If so then sharpen up a bit with your posts. If you just did'nt think about the supervision aspect then this would indicate to me you are quite junior in this job and maybe in age.

Anyone can make an inept pilot. Not just 150hr CPL's. The most inept that I've seen are the ones that make wrong descions because the did'nt know better (which is fair enough i guess TO A CERTAIN EXTENT) but then are too proud to shut the hell up long enough to listen to their senior pilot trying to tell them what they did wrong. They don't listen and they can't learn from there mistakes. This is not a problem confined to 150 hours pilots. In fact when you look back from a good deal's worth of experience you don't distingush between 150 hours or 250 hours or even 500 hours. You distingush between attitiudes.

Cub.

[Like This - Do That]

Bushy the RAAF blokes don't have that many more hours when they get their wings ...

But I'm sure you realise that the RAAF aren't accepting $$$ from Joe Average .... the ADF is starting with a student who meets their requirements. ADF can also scrub a student and will do so even as little as a couple of weeks from the end of training at 2FTS. But that's by the by.

As for 150 hr vs 250 hr surely the training standard is important? Airmanship, customer service, office skills, etc. All important stuff for a new CPL. If the standards are high and the right things are taught, then the only thing missing from a 150 hr CPL is experience. Mmmmmmm. The 250 hr CPL has 40% more aeronautical experience than the 150 hr new chum. So long as he or she hasn't learnt and reinforced bad habits doesn't the extra time count for something?

Not sure, doesn't affect me, but gosh it's been fun. Gotta run & merry Christmas to all D&G PPRuNers.

[dude65]

Moving from training into GA is a natural progression for most pilots. Unfotunatly a lot of pilots,be it with 150 or 250hr's, bring a "what can my employer do for me" attitude with them. This just doesn't wash with a small business owner. These type of people are really going nowhere. They take that attitude everywhere they go right up to the left hand seat of a commercial jet.

So your boss is an arsehole? Big deal. He probably got that way from constantly dealing with staff who waste his time and ultimatly cost him money.

Turn up every day thinking

"how can I make more money for the boss" and you're laughing.

Remember,the more money he makes the more you do.

[Icarus2001]

Maximus All of the employers i know do lament the inability to do an oil change (so...TEACH IT) AGREED!

I always have CPL students in the hangar for a day getting hands on and I know other schools that do the same. The problem with saying "just teach it" is that each school is competing with all the other schools who teach to the same CASA requirements. To add other items to a syllabus takes more hours and therefore dollars. Most students shop on price.

"How much will it cost me to get a CPL?" NOT "How employable will I be at the end of your course of training?" This is a universal disease. eg Why buy a $200 DVD player when you can buy one for $99? Selling quality to people who often are too young to see the quality can be difficult.

The other way of looking at this is that if there is consensus amongst aviation employers that the CPL "product" is not of a suitable standard then representations should be made to CASA by industry groups to lobby for changes. Remember that CASA only regulates for "safety" under the Aviation Act and so if Billy Top Gun cannot do an oil change then it is up to the industry to train him.

Using your C172 on a rough day (good example) their licence and CPL course will have prepared them for that. Also remember the limitation of competency based training (CBT) you are either deemed competent or not yet competent there is no other status such as high distinction or marginal pass. A pass is a pass.

If CASA mandated more hours or some such then I wwould have no problem as every school would have to comply but the schools who often put in the extra and then obviously have to charge for this sometimes miss out because they are maybe $2000 more than another school.

CASA has now convened a flight training industry panel and hopefully this will add some useful input to CASA. It also depends on how you view the pilot on the day that they pass their CPL test. Do you think they should be "work ready" or simply ready to start an apprentiship or internship? Remember that the Chief Pilot has a role in training, mentoring and developing new pilots so spending a week in the company hangar should be a role for the employer and not the training organisation. Loking at other industries the precedent is there to be followed.

Merry Christmas.:ok:

[Maximus B]

Icarus

Seems we are agreeing :)

I say work ready, anywhere in a basic aircraft. If they want CSU - retract which will make them more employable, put it in as an add on.

A good concept is give the licence at 200 minimum, but require 250 to validate it. "go get a Cessna and find Kalumburu young man (lady)!!)

BUT, to work anywhere, say metropolitain Oenpelli, or dusky downtown Lake evella, they MUST be able to fix tyres, change oil, clean plugs and everything else Shed 8 lets them.

I think that should be in the syllabus.

Which is why I think VTEB should be kept out of aviation. They don't have a clue!!!

Max

[126.7]

I couldn't help it. Maximus, we train to identify the early stages of a stall, we read to know what conditions we are going to need more runway, we do not stall let alone spin an aircraft with paying passengers. A Commercial Pilot should be able to identify these things and display competency in recovery techniques. In my experience this happens after about 100hours of training and 1 hour of flying 182 jump planes with 5 jumpers. Increasing the hour requirement would only increase the cost base. More important than increasing hours is making sure that a student correctly integrates their theory with their training and does not let to long a period go by before their next lesson.

P.s By the way, how is the ole Kalumbaru. I use to do the Oombalgari, Kalumbaru, Gibb River and Mt Barnett Run. I reckon it is a lot more Nav work up their than the desert.

[Maximus B]

Yeah, pressing the goto button more often :E

What got me was nowhere to go if the fan stopped...heh heh

Once went Broome Darwin running from a cyclone, 140 kt airplane, only made it to Fitzroy Crossing before I needed fuel, then Halls Creek for the night (where the locals had gone storm crazy) up past the Bonaparte Gulf into Darwin.

Thats what the kids should do between training and working :)

Max

[cjam]

Max B,

Most of the CPL's I have flown with got their first job flying CSU's, so did I and I would have hated to have to had to remembered the prop rpm as well when I was trying to get to grips with a gps run in or landing on a dodgy strip on that first day/week.

It interests me that you have experience flying around the top end yet you think it is likely that a CPL with pax on is likely to have to recover from a stall or spin...mate, if they've let it develop that far then I doubt they have the skill to recover anyway.

I think that attitude and keeness to be a "bloody good pilot" is the difference between ****e pilots and good ones. As for training I think that the extra hours you are talking about should be spent waiting around for 15G 25 knot cross winds with a cloud base of 600ft and showers in the vicinity. Not because flying in these conditions is particularly difficult but because CPLs should know what the limits are, what is possible and safe, be forced to picture how the wind will come off the surrounding terrain and all in the comforting knowledge that they have an experienced 350hr instructor beside them....

[Super Cecil]

I take it the "an experienced 350hr instructor beside them...." remark was sarcasm?

[concrete wings]

Goods points and answers but unfortunately it will be left in the hands of the insurance companies to dictate what the min hrs they require, to fly one of the machines on their policies is these days. Most operators up north wouldn't look at you without at least 250-300hrs anyway.(I'm sure there have been exemptions to this rule)

[cjam]

yes cecil....it was.....I had a ram once called cecil, do you have similar assets?

[Super Cecil]

If you call having a Kiwi friend with velcro gloves and gumboots an asset then no.:}

[Lefthanded_Rock_Thrower]

The problem is not 150 hour CPL's, it the 200 hour instructors that scares me.

How many instructors in, lets say bankstown have ever landed a C172 on 500m strip or used a HF radio ?, not many from my experience.

I'd suggest 1000 tt, 500 plus hours charter for instructors.

[Maximus B]

Somewhere in all these useful points lies the answer.

Somehow I don't think the 1000/500 suggestion is one of them.

500 tt for instructing, perhaps. But why not open it to PPLs to teach PPLs. get the costs down for 'amateur' instructors and thus derive a living wage for the supervising professional???

By the way, Phelan's article in flying, on this very subject, was both enlightening and challenged Icarus' initial points.

max