This one came to me having read the thread on strobes.....

What is the general concensus on shouting "clear prop" a few seconds before start up? I was always taught to give this a good holler out the storm window and wait a few seconds before hitting the start button (to allow any small children, sleeping vagrants etc to get out of the way before the prop starts moving).

I've had my PPL for around 7 years now and I can honestly say, on every start-up, I have always followed this routine. Thing is, at most airfields I fly from, I hardly ever seem to hear anyone else do the same.

Am I being a wally sticking to this or am I right in thinking there's a lack of airmanship on this point?

Please discuss........

Would tend to agree - I always do it but never hear it done away from base. On a flight with an instructor in the US he actually laughed at me and ... "my British ways!" :8

I've been doing that for the past 22+ years and I wouldn't care a fig if someone thought me funny for doing it. I do it loudly enough to get a startled look from someone in the middle distance - achieves its purpose - great!

Yes, I'd say that there's a slight lacking of airmanship in someone who doesn't do everything they can to ensure no-one's going to get hurt when they start the engine.

As to the US not understanding it; I bought a tee shirt last time I was at Kermit Week's Fantasy of Flight. It depicts a mechanic astride a Wright Cyclone with an aghast expression on his face as the words 'clear prop!' explode in a bubble adjacent. I'd say that it's well understood in proper aviation places.

Of course at work, no-one would be heard - can you imagine Nigel winding open the DV window on a 777 to announce his intentions? - so we rely on anti-coll beacons being switched on.

Cheers,
The Odd One

Oscar,

I agree, the shout of "clear prop" is becoming a bit rare - shame, I think it's very important. I'm a club CFI and I insist my pilots and students do it. You keep shouting!!

Three point

Thanks chaps - fear not, I will definately go on shouting it, if only because it feels like a modern (!) day equivalent of "chocks away".....which surely must impress the laydees???

I yell this over here in France, and I dont care if Im looked at either, thats the point of it. Seems to cross the language barrier because Ive heard it yelled at les Aeroclubs Francaise too -though maybe by Brits:p

What is the French for "Clear Prop!!" anyway, 'Attention/Guarder l'helice'? I dont know and have never thought to ask, I just rely on the yell bit to get people looking the right way prior to start.

Regards, SD..

Most people I know all shout it but they vary in how they shout. Some say "CLEAR PROP" really loud, some say it a bit quieter and one or two say it like this "Cleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaar PROP" or "CLear PROOOOOOOOOOOOOOP" Some just shout out "PROP" :D

How do you do yours? :)

I yell almost all of the time, even here at home when I know I'm on my own! The only time I don't yell is if I have a chum standing near my aeroplane and then I politely ask him to confirm that it is clear.

Stik

It's a bit like pre-takeoff safety briefs (which I think many pilots neglect even more), or downwind checks (which aren't technically all that necessary in some aeroplanes without flaps, mixture control or retractable gear if QFE was set already and you've checked fuel and wind on approach). Very often it isn't necessary, but if you are in the habit of doing it every time, then you won't forget when it's important.

So, I do a verbal take-off safety brief every time, even when flying on my own. I call "clear prop" every time, and most of the time I remember to do downwind checks, even in a simple microlight.

How do I do mine BRL?, Loudly!

G

How do I do mine BRL?, Loudly!Me too!

As for the French for "clear prop", I don't think it makes any difference what you shout, so long as you shout something. Let's face it, most non-aviation people wouldn't know what "clear prop" meant anyway - and they are the ones most at risk, in my experience. But hearing something being shouted will at least get their attention.

FFF
-------------

Ah! a topic recently brought home to me!

Having been a firm member of the "shout it loudly before starting" club for many a year I was recently taken aback when, upon starting up a 152 for a flight with an instructor friend, he said "please don't shout that! its the most dangerous thing you can do"

After calmly thinking about what he has said for a few seconds I asked him to clarify.

Apparently he had once also been a member of the shout loudly club until a rather unfortunate incident.
He was flying in South Africa in a bipe taildragger with very poor forward vision when on the ground (cant remember the type). He shouted "Clear Prop" prior to starting and a fellow brit, who was nearby but could only just hear my friend due to engine noise elsewhere, wandered over to see what all the noise was!

The next thing my mate knew about it a head was popping over the cowling with a friendly "Alright over here?" just as the prop began to turn.

Luckily both of them had fast reacions, the guy lept to the floor and back before any damage could be done and the pilot managed to shut it down before the prop got really swinging.

From that moment on he has never shouted it prior to turning the prop for fear of a repeat, but possibly more nasty, event.

Which I can sort of see the sense in really, do you not agree?

EzY

jezbowman, I have flown with several experienced American pilots, and they always shouted "clear prop!"; so I think your experience reflects incompetence on the part of the individual instructor (sic!), rather than a difference between British and American practices.

I was certainly taught to call "clear prop?!" before starting, and always do so. In the Harvards, we call this out before energizing, and call "contact!" just before engaging. The noise of the inertial starter winding up should provide some warning to bystanders; but I certainly wouldn't count on it.

As pointed out here (http://members.aol.com/groupaeo/carl4.htm), if there are any ground crew or other pilots standing near the aircraft, they should visually check that the propeller area is clear and respond "clear", usually with a thumbs up.

EZY

I do believe you were told it, but I don't believe it happened. If you heard someone shout something from an aircraft, would you walk over, through the prop arc, to find out what was being said?

Nor would anyone else.

And why didn't the chap start immediately after saying it? Why wait 10 seconds for someone to walk into danger?

I shout loudly, even when I know for certain that I am the only person at my strip. I will continue to do so, as well. For me, its just part of going flying.

why didn't the chap start immediately after saying it? Why wait 10 seconds for someone to walk into danger?Well, it is a judgment call how long one should wait. Of course, starting immediately would not give anyone who might be close to the prop enough time to get clear (see generally the link supplied in my earlier post). On the other hand, waiting long enough for someone to casually stroll over to the aircraft is probably too long (especially if that person was originally so far way that they couldn't make out the "clear!" call).


I don't believe it happened. If you heard someone shout something from an aircraft, would you walk over, through the prop arc, to find out what was being said? Nor would anyone else.
I also find it almost incredible that someone would approach a single engine aircraft from the front, knowing full well that it was occupied (and therefore likely to start up). However, I don't doubt that it happened as described. There are plenty of stupid people out there; and even normally prudent and intelligent people are entirely capable of occasional thoughtless acts.

Odd one,
Nigel and his ilk plus the RAF do not need to shout as they have a groundcrew man standing in front of him who is either on an external i/c lead or is in communication through standard visual signals. The pilot will not turn an engine unless given clearance so to do by the groundcrew.

Mike W

Yes I too shout 'clear prop', tis common sense for the benefit of safety, just like leaving those blessed strobes off.

Nice to see common sense still applies. Lets use this and the strobes thread to shame a few non-thinkers to engage brain before committing aviation.

Safe and happy flying!

Plenty of basis poor airmanship (or groundsmanship?) diplayed at most airfields.

A recent example is when an instructor (I assume) started a Decathlon with it's tail pointed into the hangar here at Goodwood. We were having our Falconar inspected at the time and going through the paperwork, layed out on the wing. You guessed it! Paper everywhere and us having to hold it all down. :mad:

Surely that's basic stuff? I was certainly always told not to start up without checking what's going to get blown in the slipstream, and certainly not tail into the hangar!

Then there are the little things like leaving the straps neatly in the cockpit, turning the prop (carefully) to a position it's less likely to cause problems for others in the hangar, wiping the fresh bugs off the leading edge ect ect ... All pretty small in their own right, but they add up to good aviation practice, which is surely what we should all strive for?

SS

Nearly always been taught to shout it, but recently have adopted "stand clear" as oppoesd to clear prop.

Just makes it a bit clearer if there's no aviation folk around.

Either that or just "CLEAR".

tKF

Good thinking, TKF.

I wonder how many accidents have been recorded which could have been avoided had the pilot shouted 'clear prop'? I'm guessing not many but let's have some hard statistics here.

I accept that I could not see someone on hands & knees under the nose of a PA28 but perhaps an unexpected engine start would stop them doing it again. I go along with Darwin and the theory of evolution.

I don't bother shouting it for one good reason.

When the prop starts up I'm the one with my right arm giving it a good throw downwards...

If there is a stray wino or young antelope within striking distance I would see it.:oh:

I shout "Clear". Firstly, it's understandable by non-aviation people. Secondly, it applies equally in helicopters, which don't have a prop. Actually for my PPL(H) I was taught to just look behind...because it's the tail rotor you don't want anyone to run into. But I teach my students to look behind AND yell "Clear". It can't do any harm, and it might do some good.

And I don't care what anyone thinks; I'll continue to do it. :ok:

I wonder how many accidents have been recorded which could have been avoided had the pilot shouted 'clear prop'? I'm guessing not many but let's have some hard statistics here.
Ah yes! But isn't the tenets of airmanship the process of reducing risk. As is costs nothing to yelp, then however small, the risk is reduced for no overall loss. A bit like strobes really :E

I have often seen people about to take a short cut across the patch where my plane is, gassing away, oblivious to me. A quick yell and they give me a wide wide birth. I have never felt comfortable walking near a running prop and neither do many people I wager.

I imagine in the old days, when starter motors were new fangled things but ground crew were still essential, there were many horiffic accidents.

But isn't the tenant of airmanship the process of reducing risk.
No it isn't. It might be one of the tenets of airmanship, though. ;)

No it isn't. It might be one of the tenets of airmanship, though.
Zoiks! Bit of a howler :O

I have a son who is two and a half. When asked what do we shout before staring the engine, he proudly and loudly shouts "Queer Pop!"

Oh dear, I've been doing it all wrong all these years..... I just stick my head out of the window of the 172 and sing out loudly (as aussies tend to do) "getoutadebloodyway" :E

jezbowman, I have flown with several experienced American pilots, and they always shouted "clear prop!"; so I think your experience reflects incompetence on the part of the individual instructor (sic!), rather than a difference between British and American practices

Fair enough - he was about 12 years old so this probably is the case.

There are plenty of stupid people out there; and even normally prudent and intelligent people are entirely capable of occasional thoughtless acts.
That's the problem, as soon as you make something foolproof, they just start making better fools.

I'm now trying to decide between tKF's "CLEAR" and Avgas' more forthright "getoutadebloodyway".

In open cockpit or canopy aeroplanes, like Chippys and Yaks, you can extend the right arm vertically and twirl your hand round, forefinger extended, as you shout 'Clear Prop'. The visual signal leaves bystanders in no doubt about what is about to happen, and the shout draws their attention to you.

SSD

The scene is the last PFA Rally at Cranfield. Hero pilot (me) jumps in aircraft and for the benefit of the "anorak" directly in front of the prop (complete with binocs, airband radio and notebook) I yell "Clear Prop". "What" he replies "Clear Prop" I reply "What" he replies. "F..k off you dozy b.....D" "Oh right" and he moved. Perhaps the great unwashed don't understand the terminology?

I have never heard it being yelled in Germany. I first experienced it when flying in the USA. It was standard procedure at the school I flew at. I found it difficult and somehow silly. I still don't do it over here. I look around to see if anyone is near.... I honestly don't think anyone would hear me anyway!

It would be interesting to know.... have any of you actually heard "clear prop" being yelled by another pilot? I haven't.....

Westy

hmmmm... what could be the German equivalent? "haut ab!"? "bleib' weg vom Prop"? "Distanz bitte"? :ugh: just isn't the same........

"What" he replies. "F..k off you dozy b.....D" "Oh right" and he moved.I trust that you are paraphrasing, and that your actual remark was considerably more diplomatic (private aviation has enough opponents already, without creating new ones).

P.S. I see the term 'anorak' used quite a lot on this forum; generally in a derogatory manner. I infer that it means some sort of socially inept type, especially someone devoted to obscure or less-than-glamorous interests (e.g., birdwatching, aircraft spotting, MS Flight Simulator, etc). :8 Did I get that right?

I come at this subject from another mindset altogether, before I start the engine / engines on any flying device I confirm " clear to start "

In a single pilot operation I personally confirm that it is clear and in a two pilot operation which is mostly what I fly it is manditory before engine starts and must be confirmed by both pilots.

And no I do not shout " Clear Prop " before hitting the start switch. :ok:

Having determined that it is clear to start, shouting " Clear Prop " would be unnecessary redundancy........

Chuck E.

Sure Chuck; your method would work at least as well, at deserted aerodromes or in airplanes where you can see the prop(s) from the cockpit.

On the other hand, it's best to call out when attempting to start 'blind' airplanes at busy airports (there have been incidents in which ground crew have attempted to rig up Harvards and similar airplanes for towing, not knowing that there was a pilot about to start up).

MLS

Diplomacy has its place but it isn't always the best approach with anoraks (and, yes, you're spot on with your definition).

Fair comment MLS-12D, I agree with you and please note that I have zero problem with any method of assuring safety.

I was only attempting to explain how I do it.

By the way merry Xmas and all the best in the new year to everyone here.

Chuck

And on the rare occasions that I go bird-watching now, I wear a Barbour, not a anorak, as its warmer and windproof. :O

Happy Christmas

Shortstripper...Would that be the same Falconer that carried out a full power ground run with its tail pointed into the hangars the previous week??? Practice what you preach!!!!

As I may have been partly responsible for this thread, via Strobes, I feel more confident here to iterate I was taught to yell 'Clear Prop!' and give a decent, useful pause after.

In the US, it was 'Clear!' but both sides of the pond the emphasis was on the same thing: make a big noise and make it count.

There will never be numerical proof of its eficacy, but I don't care.

Besides, where else does one get encouraged to yell like a fishwife? I was never good at Ladylike; this makes sense in more ways than one.:E

I must be getting predictable.

My four year old yells it just before I do whenever we go somewhere together (in the aeroplane that is!)

I am ready to be shot down in flames here and perhaps it's just the excesses of Christmas coupled with all of the war films that have been on but here we go.

If Joe and Joanne Public don't know what "CLEAR PROP" means, and it's them we're trying to save from sticking any extremity into the whirling disc(s), then what would be wrong with shouting something that they might have a clue about?

There's ozplanes "F..k off you dozy b.....D" which I think is quite to the point but may not be ideal in all situations, there's always Avgas172's "getoutadebloodyway" for more of a family audience and, of course, the fledgling's "CLEAR" which is, well, quite clear.

I was just wondering about shouting "CONTACT" - yes, I know that it has a specific meaning and you'd feel like a right sad tw@<hidden> shouting it out the window of your 150 but the point is that everyone's seen the films, everyone knows that when someone with a moustache shouts "CONTACT" the quiet bits get loud and the still bits start to move. So, might it help to stop someone being injured?

Now, if you could all please stop laughing for long enough to type "Shut Up, JAFO" then I'll get my coat.

I am only a student pilot as yet, however my instructor insists on a load clear shout of clear prop , yet the other extremely experienced instructor says , " I think you should say Blackpool after it , youre to loud" surely that is the point?

J.A.F.O.
If Joe and Joanne Public don't know what "CLEAR PROP" means

Can I ask what exactly Mr & Mrs Public are doing out wandering aimlessly around the apron in the first place? I dare say it could happen but, perhaps, rather than looking to "clear prop!" (which I do shout without fail) or a suitable alternative to reduce the problem, why not stop anyone not familiar with the environment from going out unescorted? That way anoraks will be less likely to become an endangered species for one! :p

Port Strobe:

Can I ask what exactly Mr & Mrs Public are doing out wandering aimlessly around the apron in the first place?

Perhaps enjoying being part of the activities at one of those many airstrips such as Popham, or the PFA Rally (Kemble), or any of the other GA airfields or strips where there is no such thing as "the apron" ......

I don't think anybody in the thread has mentioned considering your pax eardrums .... by moving or covering the headset mike before yelling 'Clear' anything!

Slip

Interesting question,

I was taught to shout 'Clear prop!' while learning in a Cessna 150 at Cranfield. If I was accompanied, the instructor would usually say 'Clear my side'. The key was turned as soon as the little window thing was latched.

Slipslider, I usually put the intercom on after engine start.

The checklist seems to say, 'Lookout with care all round. Through open window shout 'Clear Prop'.

I have since taken the opportunity for a good loud shout, it's not often I get the chance.

However;

I've never had anyone answer 'No it jolly well isn't!!'.

At Cranfield the planes are parked quite close together and I suppose that it is possible that a very new student or a passenger might be walking along the line or even picking up a stray object from beneath the front of my plane, having missed seeing me while I reach down on the floor for a dropped pencil or similar.

Suppose the general public were walking about on an open day or waiting for their friend to come back from a trial flight to take some photos ?

Self 'CLEEEAAARRR PRRRO-O-O-O-PPP!!!'

Person 1: 'What did he say'

Person 2: '"Clear prop" I think'.

Person 1: 'Is that the thing that holds the plane up ? with the wheels on the ends ? perhaps we should get out of the way of them ? quick step back!'

Chugga Chugga OOOoooowwww!!!

It's possible.

How about "STAND CLEAR OF THE PROPELLOR, THIS AIRCRAFT IS ABOUT TO START!!!"

Trucks use something similar for reversing and it seems to do the job, or at least absolves the operator of responsibility.

This topic has been the subject of some discussion in the crew room and these are the points put forward;

The shouting "clear prop" will only work when the person it is aimed at can hear, understand and act on the warning.

"Clear Prop" came from an engineering background and was used by engineers turning on the battery as a warning to other people arround the aircraft just in case the prop turned. A similar warning was issued when moving any of the controls or extending flap so that people did not loose fingers or bang heads etc. Another warning is issued when powering up hydrulics if there is powered controls because the controls can move as pressure builds..................No where in this long list of warnings is there a clear prop for starting the engine because no safe pilot will attempt to start an engine unless they are assured that the only people in any close proximity to the aircraft are ground crew associated with starting.

Helicopter pilots never shout "clear tail rotor" even when they can't see the rear of the aircraft.

If flying a twin engined aircraft, people will not hear the pilot shouting "clear prop" over the noise of the first engine already running. Also if a group of aircraft are starting, the same noise problem drowns out the warning call.

If one can't see the engine from the cockpit then one must considder the benifits of having some form of groundcrew to first check if the area is clear and secondly warn of a fire on startup plus having a fire extinguisher to hand.

Places like Popham are accidents waiting to happen with regard to public access to aircraft. Public does not have to be able to touch the airframe to appreciate the aircraft or get the serial number.

What idiot ever walks in front of a propeller aircraft on the apron with the doors closed unless they have checked first...........walking behind may get a blast of slipstream but that is far better than a close encounter with a prop...........We pilots even make this easy by parking in nice neat lines!!

"A Harvard ground crew attempting to attach a tow bar just at the point of start"...........should remember that someone is required to be at the controls (brakes) before attempting to tow. For anyone I know of this means entering the cockpit to check the position of mags, master and brakes before doing anything else..........and staying there to operate the brakes if required during the tow!

So overall, the concensus was that shouting "clear prop" was a waste of time unless there are actually people in the way and in that case, they should be escorted to a safe position before a start is contemplated. Why escorted.........so that you or the groundcrew can check that they have not dropped something or left something behind that either they will rush back for or that you will hit/roll over during taxi.

Regards,

DFC

Initially I used to teach to call clear prop since that was what I was taught but over the years I've moved more & more towards not bothering, instead emphasizing to have a bloody good look around unless it relates to a maintenance related action eg working with an engineer who needs the donk started.

Rationale:

1: It's almost never done in commercial ops anyway
2: As mentioned by others above, no one except the aviation literate have a clue about meaning, and they tend to give a wide birth to an a/c that has crew seats occupied
3: Few, if any, making the call ever wait long enough for a 'victim' recipient to move away.
4: How many would hear the call in a busy airport over the noise of lots of other a/c starting, taking off or even just taxiing past?
5: And finally, if a warning call to aviation ignorant is necessary under the circumstance then I prefer something like 'Stand clear'. A general principle of communication is to avoid using specialist jargon if you wish your vocalisation to have any meaning to those not privy to that field of knowledge.

Far better, I think, to have a bloody good look around and stick any fitted beacons/lights on.