ME and IR renewal

[FlyingForFun]

Just checking that I understand this correctly. It's late - hope this doesn't turn out to be a case of me having read something incorrectly!

From LASORS section E (IR, IMC and Night), E1.5:An Instrument Rating (Aeroplane) is valid for a period of 12 months.

A Multi-Engine (Aeroplane) Instrument Rating will be revalidated by proficiency check at the same time as revalidation of a ME Type/Class Rating.So let's say my MEP class rating expires on 1st June.

Then I complete, and am issued, my ME-IR on 28th February. This is too soon to re-validate my ME Class Rating. (Re-validation is allowed up to 3 months before expiry, hence the earliest I can re-validate would be 1st March.)

In which case, I must re-validate my ME Class Rating some time between 1st March and 31st May in order to keep it current.

So how about my IR? If I choose to re-validate my class rating on 1st March, do I really need to re-validate my IR at the same time, just one day after it was issued? Even if I leave the re-validation until the end of May, it's still less than 3 months since I did my IR - do I need to re-validate it so soon?

So it's not really valid for 12 months then, is it? Or have I got this wrong?

FFF
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[Linda Mollison]

My understanding is as follows:

Firstly, you don’t actually have to renew both your ME and your IR at the same time although LASORS makes it sound as though you do. We have had a number of students who are in the same position as you who have renewed their ME at one time and then their IR a few months later.

However, it makes sense to renew them both together if you can.

Secondly, you don’t actually have to renew your ME or your IR within a year unless you are actually planning to use the privileges of either of them.

There is no difference in the IR renewal process between ‘revalidating’ before the expiry date or ‘renewing after the expiry date, providing you do it within 5 years of the expiry date, although obviously the longer you leave it the more rusty you will be and the more training you will require.

There is a slight difference in the ME renewal process. It depends upon whether you have done 10 ‘route sectors’ within the validity of the rating. If you have not, you have to do one route sector with the examiner as part of the proficiency check where a route sector is defined as a flight comprising take-off cruise of not less than 15 minutes, arrival, approach and landing. If you have, you do not have to do this route sector, but it strikes me that the proficiency check is likely to include this anyway in order to get to an area where you can do the general handling.

Apart from that there is no difference in the ME renewal process between ‘revalidating’ before the expiry date or ‘renewing’ after the expiry date, providing you do it within 5 years of the expiry date but, again, don’t leave it too long.

So, as far as I can see, you have several options:

1. Renew your ME before its expiry date and your IR near its expiry date (you can then continue to use them both).

2. Renew your ME and your IR together on the ME expiry date. You will ‘lose’ the benefit of several months of your IR privileges, but in future you will be able to renew them both together.

3. Don’t renew your ME until up to three months before the IR renewal date, when you can renew your IR at the same time - you won’t be able to exercise the privileges of the ME between its expiry date and the date you renew it. You will then be able to renew then both together in future.

Finally, if you do not intend to exercise the privileges of the ME, why bother renewing it at all? Most airlines only require you to have a current and valid IR, not a current ME.

I assume that you are aware that you can renew your IR on an FNPT2 simulator although you have to renew your ME on the aircraft.

Linda

[Send Clowns]

It is possible to renew both IR and MEP on a simulator, allthough my personal choice is to use the aircraft for the test flight.

[BillieBob]

Whilst it is true that the MEP may be revalidated/renewed in a flight simulator, you would be hard pushed to find a MEP device qualified under JAR-STD 1A. There are very few items of the MEP proficiency check that may be completed in a FNPT II.

[FlyingForFun]

Linda - that makes a lot of sense, but you are correct in that it's not the way it appears after a first reading of LASORS!

Just for clarification, I'm not actually in this position. I'm currently in the process of arranging both my MEP and my IR, and was reading LASORS to make sure I understood all the requirements. I expect I'll do the two close enough together for this to not be an issue for me, but I was just a bit confused about the exact re-validation process and wanted to make sure I understood it fully.

Thanks!

FFF
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[Send Clowns]

I can find one easily, BillieBob. When I am at work, I just walk downstairs :)

Good luck with the courses, FFF!

[Linda Mollison]

I have spoken to the Chief Examiner, Pat Lander, this morning and he told me that, although JAR allows you to do a MEP renewal on a simulator, this is not CAA policy. So no, you are not allowed to do MEP renewals on a simulator in the UK.

Linda

[IRISHPILOT]

Well, then there Stapleford, where they have an irish JAA examiner, who will do an irish renewal on the FNPT2, then endorses your CAA UK JAA licence (being a JAR examiner).

Always ways around it, just find them. This worked for me 2 years ago, check with them wether he is still there...

cheers, IP

[BillieBob]

....and in any case, what Send Clowns is talking about is not a flight simulator, it is a procedures trainer, on which only limited items from the LPC may be conducted. A flight simulator is a device qualified under JAR-FCL 1A.

[Send Clowns]

Deleted for peace, as being no help to FFF

[BillieBob]

I am, yes, using the term simulator or sim as slang for an FNPT (in this case an FNPT 2x). Fairly common slang! And, as this thread has shown, very misleading slang!!

Within JAR there are very specific definitions of the various Synthetic Training Devices - Flight Navigation Procedures Trainers (FNPT I and II), Flight Training Devices (FTD) and Flight Simulators (FS) - and what may be done with them. In the case of the MEP Skill Test and Licensing Proficiency Check, certain items may be completed in a FNPT II provided that it is also qualified as a FTD (Appendix 1 to JAR-STD3A, Table 2). However, the bulk of the items may only be conducted in a Flight Simulator - Have a look at Appendix 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240 for details of which bits may be done where.

The 'man that runs your sim' may have his own opinion as to what may be done in his FNPT II (There is no such device as a FNPT 2x) but that opinion is not supported by the requirements. A multi-engine piston class rating LST or LPC conducted entirely in a FNPT II is invalid, no matter what the nationality of the CRE conducting the test.

[Send Clowns]

deleted for peace, as it is no help to FFF!!

[BillieBob]

Send Clowns - It is, of course entirely up to you but I am surprised that you would choose to believe unsupported opinion over documented fact, especially when the opinion comes from someone with a vested interest in overselling his investment. One hopes that you are somewhat more circumspect with the 'facts' that you pass on to your students.

However, since, as Linda discovered, it is CAA policy that the MEP rating may only be revalidated/renewed in the aeroplane, the whole argument is academic - at least until the CAA loses control of licensing policy in a couple of years time.

[Send Clowns]

I do not want any conflict here - my coimments was not supposed to start that and take this thread off the issue.

Billibob - I would not teach anything to my students that was only passed on from the internet, especially if I did not know anything about the person posting it. I am not sure why you suggest I should, and don't really appreciate your comment on my skills as an instructor for this!