Why do so many light aeroplane pilots insist on having the strobes on from engine start?

PLEASE they should only be used for flight. So only put them on when you enter the runway for take off, turn them off after vacating the active. Also use when crossing the active.

They're proper name is HISL, HIGH INTENSITY strobing lights, and can cause problems for other people on an aircraft manoeuvring area, eg refuelers and marshallers. So, also don't have them on when at the hold, they can cause distraction to pilots landing.

Please be considerate of others. (OK I'll accept that some aeroplanes have their rotating beacon and strobes on the same switch, which is a silly design, but still consider switching both off if your approaching the fueler or marshaller).

Bad habits can be stopped, just like watching some idiot today (yes, with strobes on) brake to a halt with the engine still at high power!

Come on instructors, flying clubs, owners persuade your pilots to think a bit.

TD&H

Good point. I am half way through PPL and have always been taught that, and so implement it when starting up.

:ok:

Whats the point of having strobes on during daylight anyway?

If you want to attract attention, you have to have a contrast - if its dark,flash a light; if its quiet, make a noise; if its light, make a shadow.

Flashing a light against a light background has little effect. I can more or less garantee that the next light aircraft that you see in flight, you will be attracted to it by the engine noise, you'll see the dark silhouette next and finally you'll notice its strobes.

This could be argued both ways. Personally I use strobes at engine start time, as an extra warning to anyone walking about. A lot of checklists suggest that. Then turn them off for taxi. After landing, turn them off when leaving the runway.

Why do so many light aeroplane pilots insist on having the strobes on from engine start?

On some of the new PA28s there is no red rotating beacon. Apparently this is acceptable if strobes are fitted and used in the same way as the rotating beacon.

Basically as Squadgy says. On all the PA28s including the Arrow I have flown only have tip strobes as anti collision lights. Also, neither of them could be described as anywhere approaching new so I imagine there are few about with that configuration.

As I stated I accept that some a/c eg PA28 have a bad design. But it still doesn't excuse the otherwise poor use of strobes.

IO540, that's a reasonable idea, but so long as those who do that think of the effect on people on the apron who might be looking straight at the a/c and hence the strobes when you put them on. The point, as advised in some FAA circulars I've seen, is to be very careful in using strobes near people.

If this gets a few more people thinking, then it will have done some good. Including power against brakes!

Cheers and happy and safe flying

We teach:

When cleared onto runway before releasing brakes:
Warrior Wing strobes......ON
Warrior Vent fan...........OFF
Pitot heater..................ON
Transponder.................ALT

as the last 4 items of the pre-take off checklist after ATC clearance has been obtained and the emergency brief given.

Time for a confession...
I`m one of those who leaves them on from engine start to shutdown :cool:

I do it for 2 reasons really...

1)They DO make it easier for other people working airside (who your most likely to injure) to see the a/c - been told that by the engineers,refuellers,other pilots and even the local ATCOs.

2)They look cool.

Oh yes,perhaps the pilot who stopped suddenly whilst engine was at high rpm was actually testing the brakes?

I agree with Kolibear.

The same thought should apply to the use of landing and taxi lights at night, too.

One of those questions where everyone has their own point of view, and will not budge whatever arguments the other side puts over I suspect.

I fly a fleet of 3 C150/C152s. One of them has a strobe and no beacon. One has a beacon and no strobe. The third has both.

On the one with a beacon, there is no problem. On the one with a strobe, I teach my students to switch it on when lining up, and switch it off when leaving the runway, and I tell them why we do this. But I also explain that many people prefer to leave it on from engine start to engine stop, so not to be surprised if they see other people, including other instructors, doing this.

On the aircraft with both a beacon and strobes, the beacon goes on when starting the engine and the strobe goes on when lining up. For some reason I can't figure out, many of my students seem to have trouble with this. They all understand what I'm doing and why I'm doing it, but when left to their own devices they invariably do something different..... :confused:

FFF
-------------------

If you have a beacon, it is most definitely ON at start-up as it denotes the engine/propellor thingy is going to make a noise. Trouble is a lot of our AC have just one switch that is both strobes and beacon.

Other lights on at pre takeoff check along with transponder as we cross the runway boundary.

BEagle,

Why turn the vent fan off?

Regards,

DFC

Quote:

"2)They look cool."

unquote.

:rolleyes: Do you drive with your car foglights on in the daytime?

As far as someone needing white strobes to see another aircraft on the ground.... I think not. They are a damned nuisance and you risk damaging the retinas of persons nearby, so that they are likely to look AWAY from the aircraft - which does nothing to help safety.

Personally, I dont think the strobe lights cause any distress to the eyes from even a short distance away, but that's just me. So whilst waiting to taxi, if another aicraft was in close proximity, it really wouldn't cause a noticeable problem for me, other than the fact that I can see them better, which obviously aint a problem. The only time I never look directly at them is whilst doing the walkaround, as that would be stupid. As far as my extremely limited experience goes, even in the brightest of days, you can still see the strobes, which all aids to safety IMEHO :uhoh:

No beacon, no strobe, no just cause to be in this thread.

But.... a good look round, followed by 'CLEAR PROP!' and another look round before going for a start seems to work well enough. If CC suddenly acquired either of those strange electric gizmos, the novelty would probably do more damage inside the a/c than out.
:eek:

As an ATCO I must admit one of my pet hates is strobes on during ground ops. They do dazzle, they are annoying, and they're not achieving anything really apart from blinding people. If you don't believe me then sit in the tower and have an Airbus taxy past with them on because his ops manual says so (soon got that changed) - it ruins your day (and your night vision).

As for types like some PA28's where it's all on the one switch - daytime you can see the aircraft, night time the nav lights should be sufficient to people that the aircraft is active. If anything the strobes actually stop you seeing that the prop is on because of the dazzle effect.

As others have said - just before you enter the runway, not before. When you vacate the runway, not after.

Worst case of unnecessary strobes that I've seen was last Wednesday at Heathrow - a British Airways 767 parked at Terminal 4 with nobody on board, no activity in the vicinity, and certainly no take-off imminent.

If the engine is going to be started then the anti-collision lights have to be on. I am sure that we all agree that a red flashing beacon is ideal but what if you dont have the option.

I have been asked to turn my strobes off (at night) which leaves me with no anti-colls on. IF I had a collision what do you reckon my insurer would say?

I dont even like landing with them on - ground reflections can be a proper pain - but it is unfortunately law. If people want to take the liability for me turning them off - or pay to have a red rotating beacon fitted then fine - otherwise its tough.

Nav lights on before start, day or night, that covers the legal requirements, strobes on entering the active. Can't make it much easier but as FFF says students seem to have a problem grasping this technique and don't start me on transponder use :{

Farmer,

I've heard 'Lights, camera, action' used as an aide-memoire when applying power to taxi across the hold short line (camera = transponder).

So what do people do with their landing lights when on final approach at night and they see another plane holding short of the runway? Do you turn them off so not to affect the other pilot's night vision, or keep them on for landing?

benhurr
If the engine is going to be started then the anti-collision lights have to be on.
Forgive me for being picky here, but - says who?

It's good aviation practice, but it's not law in aircraft below a certain weight. Why? Because the legislators actually realise Mr Piper made a mistake with the Warrior ;) (There are other reasons, but they're not relevant)

I have been asked to turn my strobes off (at night) which leaves me with no anti-colls on. IF I had a collision what do you reckon my insurer would say? Probably nothing, because Anti-Collision lights are requirement for flight - not ground operations.

And if you don't believe me - the ANO is always worth a read ;)

Just as a note. On larger ac it is always strobes on when lining up and off when taxying off. There are H and S rules on strobes. Flying farmers point of Nav light as opposed to strobes is a good one for night ops.

Strobes on as an anti col, I personally do not like. Also if you are up close and looking in there direction then there is a likelihood of temporary loss of vision.


Regards to all

Wide

One point springs to mind. Any High intensity light, especially strobes, have a limited life span. I play with high speed video equipment and some of the bigger Strobe units even have counters fitted to tell you how many flashes you have left.
Maybe that time accumulated on the ground looking cool just might tip the balance against you when you really need them.

Probably nothing, because Anti-Collision lights are requirement for flight - not ground operations.

And if you don't believe me - the ANO is always worth a read
You might want to retract that when you have re-read the ANO. Home in on Section 3, Display of Lights by Aircraft.

No retraction required - Rule 9 para 4 is the caveat which gets me off the hook ;)

alway taught when moving from the hold onto the runway

ATPL

a = anti collision lights on
t = transponder set to alt
p = pitot heat on
l = landing lights on

works well for me.

luckykathryn,

Thanks for the tip. I was taught RAPT for Recognition, Anti-col, Pitot, Transponder. But I like ATPL, very apt :)


Chilli,

I still beg to differ, but that's me I guess :} The ANO doesn't seem to reference a/c weight in realtion to day operations and lights. Also, clause 4 is simply a safety caveat. The days or conditions in which clause 4 can reasonably used are limited. It is quite clear that at all other times, you must have your beacon on. It does also specify flashing white lights as anti-collision lights too.

In my opinion, even the anti-cols on PA28s are not dazzling during the day...just irrirating. Granted, at night the oder says that they may be switched of as long as you have your nav lights on.

If nothing else, anti-col is a clear sign that there is somebody in the a/c and it is quite likely that the engine is going to start soon. I would class their use as good airmanship.

:O

slim slag

if its another company aircraft I will probably flash the landing lights at him :ok:

why would I want to switch my landing lights off on final approach? I might need to land the other aircraft has the option of not taking off.

No retraction required - Rule 9 para 4 is the caveat which gets me off the hook CM is quite correct. Thanks to paragraph 4, no underwriter would be able to successfully argue non-indemnity on the basis that a PIC elected to switch off a strobe while on the ground.

From the ANO

"By day an aircraft fitted with an anti-collision light shall display such a light in flight"


"display when stationary on the apron by day or night
with engines running a red anti-collision light, if fitted"

No mention as far as I can see of High Intensity Strobe Lights which are not the same as anti-collision lights. Note the words if fitted, hence the use of Nav lights to indicate either engines running or a signal to ground crew that start is imminent.

FF
if its another company aircraft I will probably flash the landing lights at him

Oi Mr Farmer - none of that flashing business, we run a respectable airfield ;)

Firstly totally agree that white strobes are only for airborne use.

The other thing that irritates me is those pilots who want to check the strobes on the walkround - is this really necessary? Quite annoying when you are in another aircraft close by doing checks etc.

By walkaround I assume you don't mean the Check A. If not then, then when? Problem with club aircraft is I don't trust the previous pilot so I do a Check A if it is the first time I have flown that aircraft on that day.

High Wing Drifter - is checking of the white strobe lights in the Check A ?

Also, if the Check A has previously been signed for that day then, notwithstanding that it is good airmanship to do some sort of preflight walkround (a " transit" check) then why repeat what has already been done?

Everyone should go back to page one and read what Kolibear wrote.

Anyone who thinks that Nav lights are visiable during daylight hours scares the living hell out of me.

Common sense also dictates that the only way anyone would get injured or killed during engine start up is if they were standing directly in the prop arc.

Common sense dictates that if you confirm no one is standing close to the prop /'s it is safe to start...if someone walks into the prop after engine start then it is only selective selection at work and the gene pool is being corrected.

Chuck E.

Chuck,

You mean strobes. The strobes can be highly visible during the day, then again they might not be depending on the background of the a/c from the viewer. My general thinking is why create so many decisions? I therefore switch the things on when lining up and switch them off after landing.

fireflybob,

High Wing Drifter - is checking of the white strobe lights in the Check A ?

Also, if the Check A has previously been signed for that day then, notwithstanding that it is good airmanship to do some sort of preflight walkround (a " transit" check) then why repeat what has already been done?
Firstly. Umm, yes. When do you suggest :confused:

Secondly, as I explained. I've lost count of the occasions I have arrived at the aircraft and found that the after landing or after shutdown checklist has not been followed through properly. Not a major problem (except maybe for the avionics) but does lead to wonder what else was not done properly. Do I need to brace myself for more critisism now? :{

FF Said:

... hence the use of Nav lights to indicate either engines running or a signal to ground crew that start is imminent.

The ICAO Rules of the Air state that at night, aircraft on an apron should have their nav lights on at all times. Therefore people in the surrounding area wouldn't associate the lights being on as a warning of imminent engine start!
Of course, ICAO do make the reasonable assumption that most aircraft have red beacons fitted.

Things are of course a little different at Chipping-cum-Sudbury Aerodrome and Joe Farmers' Strip, and I do like the idea of - say - flashing the nav lights a couple of times before starting.

Using HI WHITE strobes on the ground is cool. Just like having front fog lights on your car. Everyone NOT driving thinks it looks good. Everyone else who's driving thinks you're an inconsiderate boy-racing tosser. IMHO, of course!


For what its worth, from ICAO Annex 8 (Airworthiness of Aircraft):

Navigation Lights and Anti-collision Lights

The lights required must have the:
* Intensities
* Colours
* Fields of coverage and
* Other characteristics
such that they are easy to interpret by other pilots and ground personnel.

In the design of such lights due account shall be taken of the conditions under which they may reasonably be expected to perform these functions.

Lights are installed in aeroplanes so as to minimize the possibility that they will:
* adversely affect the satisfactory performance of the
* flight crews’ duties; or
* subject an outside observer to harmful dazzle.

In some cases it may be necessary to provide the pilot with the means to switch off or reduce the intensity of the flashing

Everyone else who's driving thinks you're an inconsiderate boy-racing tosser.
Shouldn't that be "knows" ;)

You'll be pleased to know that I don't even have front foggies on my car :O

Dusty

you said "The ICAO Rules of the Air state that at night, aircraft on an apron should have their nav lights on at all times"

might that not run the batteries down when parked overnight :\
are you sure you haven't missed something out there, my quotes were directed at operations during daylight hours.

Arrived at Exeter this morning during night hours our aircraft was on the apron, didn't have its nav lights on though! were we legal? :uhoh:

Flying Farmer,

Not at all advocating their inappropriate use but strobes do meet the requirements of an 'approved flashing white anti-collision light system'

Exactly I in the sky, use them sensibly.

I cannot see the problem here, the ANO says an anti collision beacon must be on if fitted, no probs so far. What do you guys and gals do if either a red or white anti collision beacon is not fitted, three types I fly, larger piston twins, are like this. High intensity strobes off till on the active just leaves the position/nav lights whilst engines running and during the taxi phase.

Any one with experience in aircraft kitted out in this way care to comment?

Maybe I am stupid, but can anyone here explain to me what possible safety factor there is in having nav lights on during daylight hours, especially when there is bright sunlight?

If your eyesight is so poor that you can not see something as big as an airplane in broad daylight is there some little known function of nav lights that makes them visiable to the blind?

Chuck E.

Fully agree Chuck E with your comments regarding the use of navs during the day, I am interested in the legal aspects though to comply with the ANO and JAR Ops.

Some confusion abounds. Kolibear's original comment that Chuck alluded to was about strobes, not navs! The argument has nothing to do with poor eyesight but everything to do with increase the chances of being seen earlier. It is not possible to consider the veritible myriad of daylight conditions and say that strobes make no difference to visibility.

The argument has nothing to do with poor eyesight but everything to do with increase the chances of being seen earlier.

But this thread is about blindingly bright strobes being used in close proximity to ground crew and other people near to you.

I've spent £40k on my ATPL, and I'd be very pissed off if I lost my Class 1 (or 2) medical because of burnt retinas. I might not be able to see to find you, but my guide dog will be trained to hunt you down and kill you instead :E :}

I very recently had a (fairly) near miss while taxiing and parking up to do the power up checks.

Another aircraft had taxied out a few mins before us, but as I rolled up the very dark (and very wide taxiway) only at the last minute did I spot the left nav light of the other aircraft. He had turned into wind to do his checks, but there was no landing light, no strobes, no beacon only one little red light.

Could have been embarrassing had I continued and planted my wing in his prop.

Surely the whole point is to make yourself visible to prevent such collisions (both on the ground and in the air)?

GQ

Yes GQ, the point is to make yourself visible, but to also THINK before you do or do not switch on lights, strobes, beacons etc.

As so many have said, the strobes can be dangerously bright. Also, just like the boy racers with their fog lights on, you may be making your own aeroplane/car brighter, but you then spoil the overall picture by decreasing the chance to see beyond you and see what other aeroplanes/cars etc are out there.

In general leave strobes off unless you have a very good reason to put them on. I.E. when lining up to take off or when crossing the active. If you plan to put them on at other times consider the effect on others, and turn them off again.

Cheers and happy thoughtful flying

GQ
Another aircraft had taxied out a few mins before us, but as I rolled up the very dark (and very wide taxiway) only at the last minute did I spot the left nav light of the other aircraft. He had turned into wind to do his checks, but there was no landing light, no strobes, no beacon only one little red light.
I'm guessing it was at your base airfield, and the other aircraft was a similar type to the one you were flying?

In which case strobes would have dazzled - but he should have had his landing lamp (which on that type doubles as a taxy lamp) switched on.

I am surprised noone has mentioned the veritable POH... at least for those of you who fly Cessnas.

In a POH I have by Mr Cessna, it says, in bold type, and preceded by a triangle with an exclamation mark in it:

WARNING

Strobe lights should be turned off when taxying. Ground operation of the high intensity anti-collision lights can be of considerable annoyance to ground personnel and other pilots. .......................

In the front of the POH, a WARNING is described as 'an operating procedure, technique, or maintenance practice which may result in personal injury or loss of life if not carefully followed.

It seems clear to me that if you have a ground accident involving another aeroplane when you have your strobes on, it is more than likely that the other pilot will blame your strobes somewhere along the line. The insurers are not going to look too kindly on your use of aforesaid lights if the POH says otherwise. In fact, not complying with the instructions in a POH would probably be construed as negligence and you would end up personally liable.

Worse still, someone walks into your aeroplane and a witness tells the relatives, and their lawyers, that you had your strobes on.

Not a bad idea to check your POH and see if it has any instruction like this in relation to strobes!!

My checklist has strobe beacon 'on' before engine start!
On the aircraft type i have recently started flying, there is the 'red' strobe for engine start, taxy etc. and you switch it to white on pre-take off cx.
I think it's very sensible to fly with strobes on all the time as often it is the first thing you see especially with white a/c which can be particularly hard to spot sometimes!

There is a subtle difference between a Beacon and a HI Strobe. Most aircraft have a rotating (low intensity) red beacon. Electronic flashing lights (low intensity strobes) are lighter, so have begun replacing the old rotating beacons.

Another thought for y'all to consider. The venerable bullgod has red and white strobes. The SOPs for ground ops are RED only, night ops RED only, and formation flying RED only on all but the trailing aircraft. I wonder why?

Dusty,

The white HISL on the Bulldog (and other aircraft) was capable of damaging the eyes. I instructed on these aircraft (UAS & EFTS) for a while during the time when the HISLs were being fitted. A colleague of mine was grounded for a couple of days by the RAF doc after a careless student gave him a blast at short range, an examination showed his retina was temporarily damaged.

Dusty_B

The beacon is a Hi-intenstiy white strobe.



IMHO, i would rather be seen and be able to see others. It's like driving - when it rains it gets darker yet so many people fail to put on their headlights.

The aircraft I'm flying at the moment has a switch to change strobes from red to white. Most sensible answer I have seen. I think Navs should be on all the time whilst flying.
Replacing a bulb more often is a small price to pay for safety and peace of mind, especially with some of the dodgy aircraft colour schemes out there which are just impossible to see!

Quote :

" I think Navs should be on all the time whilst flying. "

Nav lights on an airplane in flight are impossible to see in broad daylight, unless you are flying very close to the airplane that has them on. If you can't see the airplane in broad daylight what good would nav lights be?

Do you drive your car with the horn blowing at all times?

Remember the other people can see your car long before they hear the horn.

Why wear out your nav lights for no increase in safety?

Chuck E.

why...because often it helps, you have been informed that theres an aircraft in your 1o'clock, heading and height unknown, you can't see it but against a darker cloud the nav lights may stand out.
It's just sensible really. You don't have to fly with yours on if you don't want to. I always fly with mine on. Especially when it's part of the FRC's to fly with Navs, Landing Light and Strobes on. When flying GA I always stick my navs on especially if i'm in the circuit and going upside down

Help me out here flick roll. what are FRC's ?

There are just to many acronymns in aviation and I am not familiar with that one.

If you are going inverted in the circuit do you have a switch to reverse the red / green lights so the other traffic has a normal picture of what they are looking at?

"Sensible, " I guess is in the eye of the beholder, I use items like lights and pitot heats based on the necessity for same. For instance I do not see any need of pitot heat on a hot summer day, should I be climbing into possible freezing levels I use pitot heat predicated on need for same, in severe clear bright sunshine I save my nav light bulbs for when I may need them.

All that being said we all are free to configure our aircraft in any manner that is suitable to each of us. :ok:

Chuck E.

What's a Check A ?

With respect to light usage the generally accepted large aircraft SOP is as follows

1) Nav lights on when ac has power

2) red fusalage beacon/stobe on before start

3) taxi light on as taxi starts

4) wing/tail white strobes on when entering runway

5) landing and recog lights on when cleared for takeoff

The process is reversed for landing. I brief this to all my students and then explain that I have slightly modified this protocol to address the realities of light aircraft.

Therefore I teach

1) Nav lights on at power up only at night

2) red beacon on prior to start

3) white strobes on when entering runway

4) landing light on when cleared for takeoff

I do not turn on nav lights during the day because they are so dim I do not feel they contribute anything and I do not turn on taxi/landing light on for the taxi because they cost lots and seem to have a life span measured in nanoseconds.

One of my pet peeves is the generally poor use of lights by GA aircraft at night. Usual sins are as follows

- taxing with strobes on at night

- not turning off landing light when passing head on, on taxiway

- not turning off landing light when at hold short line

- fogetting to turn on nav lights when flight starts in daylight but ends in darkness. To get around this problem which in the interest of fairness I have been guilty of, I teach my students that the cockpit light knob is always paired with the nav light switch. That is if you need to turn on the panel lights to see the instruments it is always time to turn on the nav lights. As a final note if the aircraft has a cowl mounted landing light it should never be on for the runup as the vibration will sibnificantly shorten bulb life.

Chuck E - FRC's --> Flight Reference Cards/Checklist

Flick Roll :

Thanks, thats a new one for me...

What country do you fly in?

There is no way anyone can keep up with all the acrynoms or different discriptions of things in aviation. The one that always sounds strange to me is the British use of being on finals, at first I thought that it was a double vision thing. :E

Chuck E.

UK, but FRC's is more a military flying term than GA flying.

Flik Roll, is Nav Lites ON the SOP for day ops then ?

When I last flew for JEFTS this was not the case - has there been a change?

My instructor always told me to put the strobes on when entering or crossing the active, and off when leaving.

He also told me to put the transponder to ALT after we had taken off, due to the possibilty of me lining up and a aircraft on finals having to go round due to a TCAS warning?? He also recommends that I switch the transponder off when I'm carrying out my pre-landing checks.

He also told me to put the transponder to ALT after we had taken off, due to the possibilty of me lining up and a aircraft on finals having to go round due to a TCAS warning?

TCAS II takes input from the radalt when close to the ground, and does not generate RAs or TAs against surface traffic.

2D

He also told me to put the transponder to ALT after we had taken off, due to the possibilty of me lining up and a aircraft on finals having to go round due to a TCAS warning??

In addition to what 2D's says, your instructor shows a complete lack of understanding from what he says (if that's what he says).

Reasoning being is this - if you've been told to line up then the aircraft on approach will not have been cleared to land.

So - on that basis - why would he go around?

If a TCAS alert WAS generated in an aircraft on finals, it is probably safer to continue the approach in any case.

Big Pistons,

You said;
I teach my students that the cockpit light knob is always paired with the nav light switch. That is if you need to turn on the panel lights to see the instruments it is always time to turn on the nav lights

Perhaps you should considder the actual legal requirement for the display of Nav lights. One can easily have bright sunshine lighting up your pannel and getting in your eyes at FL70 at a time when the aircraft is flying during the period of Night which is always determined at the surface.

That is one of the reasons why larger aircraft have the nav lights on at all times - much easier than working out the intercept of night time from the tables in the middle of nowhere!

With regard to the aircraft nearly taxying into a parked aircraft..............is the reason for the problem the lack of strobes or is the reason behind the problem the fact that;

a) the aircraft moving was not using a taxi light.

How would the moving aircraft have put a wing in the other aircraft's propeller because surely they would not have turned until they reached the point where the stationary aircraft was....unless they were aware somehow of the presence of another aircraft between them and the hold!!

Perhaps that pilot should try to taxi behind some big aircraft when the tail nav lights are placed on the wing tip trailing edges.........a system that leaves a large dark area between just where the tail is sitting!

Anyhow, why turn the aircraft into wind to complete a run-up especially if that requires a turn through 180 degrees on a taxiway...........everyone taxying towards you will have their taxi lights on and will destroy your night vision!!!!

Regards,

DFC

Quote :

" That is one of the reasons why larger aircraft have the nav lights on at all times - much easier than working out the intercept of night time from the tables in the middle of nowhere!"

....................................................................

Another way of looking at that is the designers figure that pilots do not have the brain power to figure out something a basic as the need for nav lights.

What happened to using a thought process that includes logic and common sense? :sad:

Chuck E.

>That is one of the reasons why larger aircraft have the nav lights on at all times - much easier than working out the intercept of night time from the tables in the middle of nowhere!<

Flown "larger aircraft" for circa 25 years and never had an SOP which required nav lites to be on at all times. Crews I flew with were always diligent about turning nav lites ON when required and vice versa.

Fireflybob:

I also have been flying a lot of stuff for many years and have never seen any requirement to have nav lights on in daylight hours.

Where does all this stuff come from? :suspect:

Chuck E.

Chuck as I have tried to explain before, in the UK it is a legal requirement to have some form of light switched on during daylight hours when the engine(s) are running, if the aircraft is not fitted with a red rotating beacon and you don't want to put the HISL on, please tell me what would you do?? its not about the fact that the navs can't be seen in the day, I agree with you they are as good as useless, its all to do with staying legal!!

Happy new year to you all,

FF

Flying Farmer - can you please specifiy where this is stated in UK legislation?

Thanks

Chuck and Firefly,

So when flying a larger aircraft round Europe, at what time do you turn on the nav lights at FL350?

When it gets dark? - too late
When the sun sets - too late?
30 minutes after the sun has set as observed from the ground below the aircraft...........hard to work out when the aircraft is flying frequent changes of track and with a groundspeed of 500Kt+

Also in some countries, night starts at sunset+30 for part of the year and starts at sunset for the remainder............so pick a few random European countries and ask your self exactly when do you legally need to turn on the nav lights at FL350.

---

Flying Farmer,

There are lots of aircraft in the UK that have no lights. Are they operating illegally as soon as they start their engines?

The requirements for aircraft to be fitted with beacons is an airworthiness requirementand ICAO DOC 9051 (Airworthiness Technical Manual) has lots of guidance including when lights are required to be Off.

Regards,

DFC

Fireflybob,

Navs on are daylight SOPs IAW the FRC's for both the vigilant (VGS) and also the tutor (EFT)

Flik

>So when flying a larger aircraft round Europe, at what time do you turn on the nav lights at FL350?<

Most pilots I know just use "common sense" erring on the side of caution.

Taken from ICAO Rules of the Air

"3.2.3.4 Except as provided by 3.2.3.5, all aircraft:
a) operating on the movement area of an aerodrome and
fitted with anti-collision lights to meet the requirement
of 3.2.3.2 c); or
b) on the movement area of an aerodrome and fitted with
lights to meet the requirement of 3.2.3.2 d);
shall display such lights also outside the period specified in
3.2.3.2."

and a link to the page http://www.thegreatness.com/0302/Annex2.pdf

as a pilot and not a legal bod can some one explain "shall display such lights also outside the period specified in
3.2.3.2."
the period specified is sunset to sunrise.
:\

In addition to what 2D's says, your instructor shows a complete lack of understanding from what he says (if that's what he says).

I'll ask him to clarify next time I see him.

I was thinking, if the a/c on finals is not cleared to land and gets a TCAS warning, would the pilot not have to obey it regardless of clearences?

Flying Farmer - thanks for the reference.

Those are the ICAO Rules of the Air and different States will have variations. Have just taken a trip to my friendly local airfield to read the UK Rules of the Air and I see no requirement to have nav lites switched on during day ops:-

Display of lights by aircraft
9.—(1)

(a) By night an aircraft shall display such of the lights specified in these Rules as may be appropriate to the circumstances of the case, and shall not display any other lights which might obscure or otherwise impair the visibility of, or be mistaken for, such lights.


(b) By day an aircraft fitted with an anti-collision light shall display such a light in flight.

(2) A flying machine on a United Kingdom aerodrome shall:


(a) display by night either the lights which it would be required to display when flying or the lights specified in rule 11(2)(c) unless it is stationary on the apron or part of the aerodrome provided for the maintenance of aircraft;


(b) display when stationary on the apron by day or night with engines running a red anticollision light, if fitted:

Hope this helps!

DFC :

First......... to one and all a safe new year.......

I fail to see the connection to flying at FL350 with regard to nav lights, and I very much doubt that pilots flying in that airspace will come to the Pprune private pilot forum to verify any SOP or legal requirement concerning this subject.

When I do get tangled in these discussions here I try desperately to argue my positions based on common sense and good airmanship, none of us could possibly read every rule and regulation....even if we did there are deliberate grey areas built into them to protect the regulator, that is why you get so much disagreement between people because rules are deliberately written to confuse.

Chuck E.

When paxing around I notice that airliners on the apron have their nav lights on some time before pushback, regardless of the time of day. i.e. the red/green and white lights.

If I follow this thread correctly, are these then set to off after departure and during daylight hours?

Just curious.

they are on to show the aircraft has power on i.e. batt/gen switch on. I was just discussing this with a friend who actually mentioned it to me - i didn't realise it was done on commerical jets. I guess they get turned off before flight then judging by what has been said on here with regards to flying with them on commercially.

Flying Farmer,

It means that if an anit-collision light is fitted to comply with the requirements for displaying such a light at night or sunset to sunrise as appropriate, then the anti collisio lights should laso be displayed by day unless the lights are switched off to avoid dazzle etc.

Part of the problem here seems to be that many are not aware of the difference between an anti-collision light or lights and a strobe light system.

Regards,

DFC

Part of the problem here seems to be that many are not aware of the difference between an anti-collision light or lights and a strobe light system. The other part of the problem is that certain aircraft (PA28 Warrior II model springs to mind) have both the fin anti-coll and the High Intensity wingtip strobes on the same switch - a very poor design which means you get both or nothing. This is where the confusion of "what do I do?" is coming in.

I see this issue is still entertaining the readers of this forum, so with nothing better to do this A.M. here on beautiful Vancouver Island I will once again jump into this mindboggling stupid conversation.

The root problem is society has been dummed down to this level where hopefully mature individuals are unable to grasp some very simple facts.

First fact is unless the ambient light is low enough aircraft external lights are not really that obvious to the person looking at the aircraft, during reasonably good ambient light conditions when you look across the ramp what do your eyes first imprint on your brain, the aircraft or the lights?

As to which lights are most noticeable the following will be evident.

Most noticeable......White Strobes

Next....................... Red Rotating Beacons.

Least..................... Wing tip, Tail, Navigation lights.

Society is cowed by more and more regulations cobbled together by bureaucrats backed up by lawyers figuring out ways to fleece the sheep if we are found to be breaking the rules.

It is everywhere, this keyboard that I am typing on has a warning from the manufacturer stating...

WARNING....To reduce risk of serious injury read safety & comfort guide provided with product and at www.compact.com/ergo

Airliners and commercial aircraft have those nav lights on for the same reason that this keyboard has that warning...to avoid lawyers suing people and bureaucrats and their minions climbing all over you for some rule violation.

By the way, suppose the nav lights somehow were left off on every airline airplane on every ramp on earth, how many passengers would walk into a jet intake?

I must be slipping into senility even staying in this discussion. :*

Chuck E.

No confusion at all DFC, our aircraft do not have anti colls fitted but they do have HISL, and I'm not talking bug smashers in case you wondered!!

I'm bowing out gracefully as its all getting a bit silly now :\