OK so we all know and are pretty used to anything marked 'aviation' having it's price hiked up somewhat, however even I was surprised to see a an aircraft tie-down kit being advertised for £40.

Now some wouldn't bat an eyelid at only £40 however all it was, was 3 really large corkscrews and some rope. You've probably all seen them for sale yourselves.
The same corkscrews can be found in wilko's (the pet section...screw into the lawn and attach a dogs lead) for £1.99. (or pet world for £2.99)

So to create the same £40 kit... has cost me £8, 3 x £1.99 and a couple of quid for some rope.

Not really having a winge as I don't feel like I've been ripped off, but maybe of use to others who need a portable tie down kit... a bit of rope and a trip to the petstore is all ya need.

:ok:

Mrs G has just patented a specialist non-aviation device, and is in the middle of haggling with a manufacturer who are going to manufacture and market it. They are looking (to make it viable) for a mark-up of around 6 times above manufacturing costs to make it viable - she'll probably see about 2½% of the sale value.

In that context, and considering the number of manufacturing processes that go into those dog-corkscrews, it's amazing that the petshop can sell them so cheaply, rather than that a pilot shop charges so much.

But yes, I buy my tie-downs from Petsmart too :ok:

G

As a matter of interest, what pet requires the same tiedowns as an aeroplane?

Thanks for the tips though as I was contemplating getting some tiesdowns, just in case I ever go overnighting

Ah but is your homemade kit certificated for Aviation Use? ;) :D

Aiglon

Ah, but it's not for aviation use - it's for preventing inadvertent aviation - not the same thing!

G

what pet requires the same tiedowns as an aeroplane? An Essex boy. ;)

High viz vests/ jackets (does anybody wear one..?)

Check out the prices in the various pilot suppliers and then spot the same things in a builders merchant for a fraction of the price.

HP

Hi Vis vests are available in the market at Fuengirola for 3 Euros. They now have to be carried and visible in all Spanish cars.

Aerbabe,

You really have some strange habits!

I can vouch for that, I've met him. :O

G

Quote:

"As a matter of interest, what pet requires the same tiedowns as an aeroplane?"


classic! :D

fell off the seat with laughter......


7gcbc

Topcat, petstore corkscrews usually have either a fragile tie-ring for the rope attachment, or use a triangle at the top which is open-ended. If you want to use petstore tie-downs, you really should get the end closed (welded) - otherwise it doesn't take a lot of 'pull' to open the triangle up, the rope slips off, and then your pride and joy can go over. A friend's aeroplane was wrecked when exactly that happened. Saving £30 doesn't seem such a good deal when your pride and joy is parked upside down..... :sad:
Slip

Are these corkscrew devices only available for the northern hemisphere or are there left-handed versions avaiable for the Aussies?

As a matter of interest, what pet requires the same tiedowns as an aeroplane?

Try this (http://www.jumbovillage.com/ggd.mpeg)

I suppose an Airedale Terrier......or a Beagle.....Husky......Sopwith Pup......er.....shall I go on?:=

Understand a toilet seat for B737-400 to be circa $800 now thats a mark up!!!!!

Having been relieved of £88 plus VAT for a voltage regulator for my aged Lycoming 0-235 I was a bit miffed to find a box containing 3 of them at a local Car boot sale. When I asked the guy how much he wanted for them his reply was "Well you don't get much demand for Chevy Corvair voltage regulators....would a quid each be OK?" And yes they were the exact replacement but of course didn't have a release note. I wasn't brave enough as I'm on a Cof A but it seems a pity somehow.

I am not in the habit of bringing my work home, but I forgive myself in this case (I clocked off at around 5pm)

Aviation products tend to be high cost because of certification.

From the manufacturers point of view, he produces an item that happens to be used in both the automotive industry and the aviation industry. Whilst I stand to be corrected on the automotive industry, its probably more strict than I imagine, but the aviation industry certainly requires both certification and traceability.

Certification proves that the product will work in the environment that it is intended to use that product.

Whilst the automotive equivelant will probably work in the same environement, it came from the same production line using the same techniques most likely, it may not be possible to trace back to the component parts in the event of a failure. This may not be necessary, but in the case of common mode failures it might be prudent to let the end user know of the problem, or worst case ground the aircraft to which that product is fitted.

In a car, failure of that product may not be disasterous since the driver may be able to pull up to the side of the road. Failure of the same product in an aviation scenario may have more disasterous consequences.

Knowing where that product is fitted may prevent future accidents/incedents.

Thats the safety side. There is also the economy of scale issue to consider.

Lets say for example that to certify a product costing £10 for aviation use costs £100,000 to cover test plan, test procedure, testing and test reports ( there are many tests to cover different aspects such as vibration, acceleration, humidity etc). Now I know its likely to be used in say 1000 aircraft so I spread the cost over my 1000 units so the cost of the unit now comes to £110.

Now consider the car manufacturer who wants to make 1,000,000 cars with this product, if you tried to spread the cost of certification over his production run he would end up paying £1099900.0999000999000999000999001 for the same product instead of 10,000,000. You however, would get your product for £10.99 instead of £110 = chuffed to mintballs. The car manufacturer quite rightly says NO to paying more because you want to sell it the aviation market as well.

I have deliberately ignored the issue of the resellers don the line because they also have fixed overheads to cover paperwork handling.

Kerching - clocked off for Christmas again - Seasons greetings to you all

Oh and by the way I do not profess to be anything other than an engineer and the above is a very simplistic view of real life production.

Just my two penneth worth ;)

g0kmt

I agree with what you have said.

The problem I have is that the vast majority of the £100,000 for certification will be spent on certified engineers ticking boxes at £400 per hour and having someone check that the boxes have been correctly ticked, at £500 an hour, at the rate of one box per hour, all done three times, to be sure, to be sure, to be sure.

And here's the thing... once 1000 have been sold, so certifications costs recovered, do they revert to being £10?

I used to employ a lad as a trainee mechanic. He was nice enough, but had no problem solving aptitude. When he left my employ, he went across the road to a certain aviation manufacturing company. He was making arm rests for helicopter seats. Within two weeks, he could make a couple a day. He made them day in, day out. They went out of the factory gate at around £3000 each.

The vibration, temp and humidity testing of auto parts will have all been done by the manufacturer as part of the original supply chain agreement. Recalls on cars cost millions and suppliers responsible for a recall will be billed accordingly. With 3 year warranties now the norm, the testing is probably far more thorough and rigorous than would be required for aircarft use.

The state of the US automobile industry 30 years ago was such that, in this case, I would definitely buy the certified regulator.

As a matter of interest, what pet requires the same tiedowns as an aeroplane?

A Labrador dog - 35lb AUW, four paw drive and a low centre of gravity. Been pulled over by one a few times... :p

Regarding the corkscrew pet tie-downs. I bought 3 of them. First one I tried screwing into the ground where I park my plane. It took a huge force. I got a stick. Turned it in more and more. It got more and more difficult as it went in. It got to a point where it got so difficult, the triangular bit on top snapped off, leaving a sharp piece of metal sticking out of the ground. Damn, thought I, how on earth (no pun intended) am I going to get this out if that ground is that hard? I tugged gently vertically and it came straight out together with the core of whatever it had drilled. I gave up on using them at that point.

The starter clutch for the Continental O-200 engines of Cessna 150 etc etc fame. I bought one at £700 (1992 £'s). Shortly afterwards they reduced the price to £380 cos there was a chap reconditoning them from £300 and they weren't selling new ones! All this for a simple sprag clutch mounted on a 5" diamater gear wheel which, if it had been a car part would have cost £30 tops. Oh yes, the clutch seized after 7 months use........

Regarding tie-downs, I've been told that the old WW1 style of three tee handled spikes 18" long driven through a ring at an angle is much harder to pull out of the ground than the corkscrew type.

In my experience, ANY spike in the ground is better! :-)

Flap40

That video clip is a cracker !!!:D :D :D

Do Petsmart do Cambrai covers?? :D :ok:


EL

Erm, how about a fuel dipstick measuring thingy for a C152? £11.99 for a 30cm plastic tube. . .

It's a comfort to know that it's safe for aviation purposes - I mean, my 30cm piece of wooden doweling with notches cut in it (20p from B&Q) is just an accident waiting to happen. :)

Aviation products tend to be high cost because of certification

That is an old one, and I am sure that most of the time it isn't true.

Just look at the AGE of a lot of aviation products and how long ago any certification would have been done.

Most GA engines are decades old. The current engine manual for an IO540 is dated (on every page) in the 1970s.

Most avionics are old too. Most of my panel is early 1980s - that's over 20 years old. Yet the stuff is still horribly expensive and the build quality isn't anything special.

If one was talking about an auto throttle system for example (bizjet market and above) then I can believe it. But for most GA products this doesn't wash. Either the stuff is far too old to still be carrying any cert cost, or it's something that doesn't need cert (e.g. a portable GPS).

The real reason IMHO is that for bizzare historical reasons most manufacturers are firms that are 10x to 100x too big for the present market. So they have huge fixed costs to carry.

Take Honeywell for example; their GA product range is tiny and could easily have been developed and made by a small firm comprising of several good engineers.

The volumes are low everywhere and this ensures that anyone reselling the stuff goes for large margins. My local avionics shop (quite a big one) has the same Garmin GPSs on the shelf month after month. They sell a lot of £300 leather jackets though :O

One can similarly debunk the other excuse given (product liability insurance). If one looks at the published accounts of any of the main vendors, it barely features. But it's a damn good marketing excuse for charging $10k for a bit of avionics which costs about $300 to make.

Whilst I can see the certification cost argument I think a big part of it is also the attitude "Hey you can fly...therefore you must be loaded!!!!".

Mate of mine expericenes the same thing thing because he has a boat. Look at the cost of a bog standard, hand held aviaition GPS for aviation and compare to a streetmap one, its the same unit just a different Db in most cases!

We also get ripped off in Europe, I bought a new GPS (AvMap EKPC_Pro) about 4 months ago. Was quoted £1200 and £250 per regional Db from the distributer in Italy. I went direct to the US manafacturer and paid $1000 for unit and $175 for the extra European Db(it came with the US one), total cost £640 v £1450!!!

Of course "anyone operating aircraft must be loaded", and the pricing reflects this.

Unfortunately, today, in the UK GA scene at least, the above is hardly true for the bulk of aircraft owners. So they don't spend much money on capital items. Their money gets spent (wasted actually) on endless repairs and maintenance keeping ancient planes in the air.

The prices of new kit are adjusted to match the wallets of the very small group of customers that buy new stuff.

There's only one way to partially get around this, with CofA aircraft, and that is to operate a plane which has always been looked after and be a licensed engineer (or FAA A&P if N-reg) and do your own maintenance. Then one can save bags of dosh.

Going back to tie downs, in an earlier life I worked for dear old Mr Marshall at Cambridge. Up there they had (and still do have) a pair of Tiger Moths with the Cambridge Flying Group. They needed a simple and light tiedown for the Tiger that could go in it's rather small locker. Some clever feller came up with a very simple design which I'll try to describe...

Take one steel tube (round or square section, doesn't matter) about 18 inches long. Fix something to one end that you can firmly tie a rope to (a ring, or hook) To this first tube, weld another short piece of tube at an angle of about 60 degrees, and near to one end.

Now, take another piece of tube or a solid spike that will fit snugly inside the welded-on bit, this to be about the same length as tube #1.

Tube #1 pushes into the ground, tube/spike #2 gets whacked in thru the short welded on bit, into the ground. You try pulling on the first tube - it don't wanna come out! Tie your beloved craft's wings to that ring or hook that you fixed on earlier. Works a treat! When it's time to leave, untie and whip out spike. Very light and portable.

Better get it patented I suppose....

:8