Oxford sharp practice ?

[A and C]

It has come to my notice that Oxford are only pushing ex-integrated students forward for airline jobs and students from the modular courses are not getting recomendations for jobs.

I could understand this if the modular guys don't make the grade but it would seem that if you do the modular course and pass first time this is not good enough for a recomendation to an airline but fail a few exams on the the integrated course and you still get the recomendation to an airline.

I have no axe to grind on this subject apart from wanting to see the best people get recomendations for jobs and this should not be based on the size of the fee paid to the training establishment.

I would be more than happy to eat my words on this subject if I an proved wrong but I have to call this one as I see it and warn the recrutment people in the airlines that the product that they are being offered by Oxford (and a number of others) may not be based of skill or abillity but on the size of the students cheque book.

[EGBKFLYER]

Blimey! What absolutely amazingly important news!

I'm sorry to get my flame thrower out at this early hour buddy but this one is so old it creaks. Anyone doing a bit of research on this site or almost anywhere else will hear this story at some point. It might be true, it might not be - either way, unless you are in charge of policy at the aforementioned school, it will be difficult to prove or disprove the accusation. Sure, there is quite a lot of anecdotal evidence supporting your case but that isn't proof.

Anyone sensible is going to do a bit of hunting when looking to spend the kind of money we're spending on aeroplanes. There's enough info around to help make peoples' mind up whatever way. Can't we move the debate forward instead of recycling the same old chestnuts - it's getting boring!

PS Usual caveat - I didn't train at OAT and am not connected with them in any way even slightly.

[High Wing Drifter]

EGBK and Fly

Crazy logic if ever there was.

What relevance do the archives have on the current situation? Answer is you don't know if you don't know what the current situation is!

If FTOs are being a little underhand or not providing the expected level of service, then it should be posted. The more recent the better. Helps people build a picture, form an opinion. After all, word of mouth (or text of post) is the closest we'll get to an independant, if not objective, review of these places.

[flystudent]

my previous post has has gone becasue I decided I really cant be bothered with this thread. However my closing thoughts would be...

If you have 3 products, one of which includes a careers service in the fee and the other 2 dont and then the one with the fee receives the service what is the problem ?

So with regard to delivering expected level of service - the service you receive is what you pay for, no ?

my understanding is that in the past the careers service was offered FOC to everyone, since then the business model has changed and it no longer is for whatever reasons. ** I think, not 100% on this - so dont quote me**

re relevance of archives, Becasue this topic appears to come up over andover again and I can pretty much gaurantee this will be one thread which goes into the archives just like the others with more than likely very similar posts on it.

I do not work for Oxford but this is my take on it, enough from me. Have a nice Suday - Yipee less than a week till Crimbo !!:O

FS:ok:

[EGBKFLYER]

High Wing - take your point on the relevance of the archives. I would say that the archives play an important part in separating old chestnuts from genuine new contributions. This thread started with a post that didn't say anything new or different to a whole host of previous ones on the topic. I just feel this forum has a tendency to gravitate towards the same old arguments sometimes, which is why I threw my tuppeny in...

[A and C]

First I am not your "buddy" and by the tone of your post can see no earthly reason why I would want to be.

Anyway back to the post. I don't inhabit the wanabe forum most of the time as it is my job that you are after and this forum usualy of no interest to me , however when I hear of integrated guys who fail flight tests being put forward for airline jobs when modular students (some of them full time) who pass first time I am left to wonder if the person sitting in the seat next to me is the best pilot that could have been recomended to the company.

I am a firm advocate of ability being the key element in pilot recruting after all when the aircraft leaves the ground daddys cheque book is no longer able get you out of a tight spot !.

As for your attitude EGKBFLYER if you continue to show such "high" level of CRM skills I doubt that you will get past the first sim detail.

[EGBKFLYER]

Good - now we're getting somewhere (even if my CRM skills are being called into question!).

Forgive my impertinence A & C, but I'm still struggling to see the aim of your original post. Was it to warn modular Oxford candidates they might not be first priority (the three mod students I know are well aware of this from their own experiences)? Was it to share some particular experience you've had (I would certainly be vey interested to hear but I'd appreciate more detail on what you've said so far)? Was it to elicit a response from someone in recruitment and/ or Oxford to explain how the industry has got to this point? I'd love to see that one in particular.

The point of my original reply was to probe what came over as a general statement on a subject done many times before. I apologise if I offended you with my tone - was just keen to see a well-reasoned and evidenced argument on a key issue. It's not even confined to Oxford: I know of one UK airline that has cut back on integrated student recruitment generally for 2005 after getting fingers burnt dealing with new-starts of questionable skill this year.

[A and C]

There is no doubt that Oxford by and large produce good pilots but to not recomend modular students who make the grade with good first time passes and then to recomend integrated students who have not performed as well seems to me to be linked with the amount of money the student has spent and not ability.

This can't be good for the airlines and will do Oxfords reputation no good in the long run.

As for the standard of new first officers that I come into contact with , generaly it is satisfactory but standards are slipping mainly in the motivation and CRM departments.

[flystudent]

A & C

I think that not any integrated graduate gets thrown at any position. Many airlines stipulate selection criteria which need to met in order to be recommended to airlines to undergo the airlines selection process.

As for Modular guys - I have met some mods who without a doubt are better than some integrated students.

As far as standards & motivation slipping -I find this interesting (genuinely) Do you feel this could perhaps be a reflection of the change of the industry today e.g. harder to find work, paid less- some in debt up to their eyeballs through funding type ratings now also etc i.e. the dream they set out after has not perhaps been the yellow brick road they once believed in ?

On a side issue are you aware that the latest Oxford course now offers a "First Officer Fundamentals" 2 week component of which one week is pure CRM taught by serving airline CRM trainers, this is coupled with twice as much time in the 737 sim on the MCC/JOT.

Maybe these steps are an attempt by Oxford to bridge what you and perhaps others have observed and fed back to the FTO ?

From my previous posts you will see I don't wave the Oxford flag everywhere or defend every negative post.

Regards

FS :ok:

[High Wing Drifter]

A and C,

Just to set the scene. I didn't want to deal with specifics. My original post was a moan at a moan about the same ol' same ol' being posted.

Not that I agree with Fly (heaven forbid ;)) But I don't think first time passes should be the criteria used to judge if you are or are up to it. Wether we like it not, being identified for suitability is not a scientific endeavour for any job. First time passes are good, but I bet many of the best airline pilots out there went solo after 10hrs and failed one or two things. If anything, failing a section gives you a chance to really show your metal.

[Divet II]

Not any integrated student gets put forward. This would be a stupid move for any integrated FTO. We all know that they like to make money don't we. The quality and the success of the integtrated student is what makes them money.

If they are not up to scratch and they get reccommended, so X airline takes them on, then they might fail a type rating, then they cost that airline a load of money. Multiply this a load of times and we begin to see the picture. So next time Oxford or whoever say to X airline, ooh yes we've got 14 students here who we can reccommend, honest, then this airline is gonna say ,"oh yeh? no thanks, not after the last guy you gave me cost us £20,000"

So then they don't trust Oxford in providing them with LOWEST RISK cadets who are as near as damn it guaranteed to get through a type rating course. So Oxford lose relations with airlines, this gets around pretty quick and then they suddenly find that not as many people are wanting to train there, they lose their reputation, they lose a lot of money, and probably eventually would go bust.

As for none of the modular course people getting reccommended, I do not know but I agree with flystudent . That was not part of their deal. This is where the extra money goes, which perhaps the modular people didn't believe went anywhere, which is maybe one of the reasons they chose modular, and so have no reason to complain (not that any are complaining) if they dont get put forward. Tough sh:t really.

[dis80786]

After reading this lot, I feel compelled to post my bit.

As an integrated student at OAT who does not come from a rich background, I find it really quite offensive that everyone seems to think that the only reason that anyone gets onto integrated is through 'daddy's wallet'. True, there is a certain small percentage of people like that at the college, as there are in any other industry, but quite how one finances oneself is really not anyone else's business. FYI, I am one of the majority who busted their arses saving to get in.

The truth of the matter is, whether you are modular/integrated or a trainee mechanic, we have all succeeded in getting ourselves into the best school in Europe at this moment in time, which in the eyes of the airlines puts Oxford mods/ints ahead of the other schools before we even open a book. If it wasn't, we wouldn't keep paying out a fortune. It is also absurd to think that just because you fail an exam, you are any less able to become an excellent pilot. I will admit for one that my academic skills are not quite what they should be, but I assure you that I am absolutely busting my balls to do this course to the best of my ability, and surely that counts for more than those who would coast through.

However, those mods/ints who expect OAT to find them a job at the end of their course are quite simply mad. This is one of the most competitive industry sectors to enter, and the OAT career service is simply one tool that a student might use to find employment. If the student doesn't believe that they need to put out CV's or spend hours trying to make contacts within the industry, as those from any other school would, just because they are from OAT are in for abject disappointment. Eggs in one basket, and all that.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

we have all succeeded in getting ourselves into the best school in Europe at this moment in time, which in the eyes of the airlines puts Oxford mods/ints ahead of the other schools before we even open a book. If it wasn't, we wouldn't keep paying out a fortune.

Oh Dear.

Now this is the sort of thing that causes peoples blood pressures to rise - for all sorts of reasons.

1) Best school in Europe. Hmmmmmm. Lets merely leave that as 'debateable'.

2) Being an OATS 'graduate' does not put you ahead in the eyes of anyone. In fact I've worked at places that specifically wouldn't hire Integrated 'graduates'. OATS has no special reputation. A hierarchy if there is one runs simple, small modular schools, larger modular schools, Integrated schools.

3) You keep paying your money because with the best will in the world you don't ever know much about the flying training world until long after you've left it.

Its mildy worrying but not at all suprising that many of OATS customers feel they have an advantage by their choice of basic training provider. Whilst it is a fine school some do argue that their best department is none other than their marketing one..

Caveat Emptor.

Cheers

WWW

[RoyHudd]

For what this may be worth, OAT recommended a group of 14 long-course students to 2 airlines, at very short notice, just as 6 of us were successfully finishing the BCPL to CPL/IR Upgrade course. We didn't get a look-in, and I was personally advised that my age would always count against me. This was said after I had paid most of my money.

Back in the 90's, I know, but I have heard of similar cases recently.

Buyer beware!

[xbilz]

Thought it was time to add my bit...

The so called "BEST SCHOOL IN EUROPE :eek: " has taken more students than ever on their integrated training course (Which presumably will get them a job straight into a Jet :confused: ... the Brochure says so :p).

Their students have logged a complaint about fewer aircrafts and desktop simulators. To avoid any massive blow to their BUSINESS their Managing Director has now intervened to resolve this issue and have asked for the real identity of the student (I bet he is never going to be recommended to any airline ever ... poor guy:( )

Check this Forum !! (http://www.oxfordaviation.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1301)

Hope you all find it informative.

Just another wannabe !!!

(Sorry If I have offended any loyals, lovers and lickers of Oxford)

[porridge]

Have to agree with WWW - especially on the 'caveat emptor' and the best part being the marketing arm.
The one thing that this company have going for them is that there is one born every minute and that applies to both sides of the 'customer' equation!
Frankly my opinion is that the integrated school approach is dead unless you are providing training for '3rd world' countries. in terms of aviation expertise.
The modular approach will be the future methinks and I know WWW is of the same opinion.
Forget the hype, airlines don't much give a damn about the integrated student versus the worthy self-improver these days. Someone who has had to find their own way to licence rather than having it spoon-fed is probably going to be the better employement/training risk anyway,

[Send Clowns]

Pssst! It's not "self-improver" any more, porridge! Such things no longer exist. The whole point is now all training is by approved courses, so the modular course is equivalent to an integrated course in the only important factor, i.e. the CAA's monitoring of the training standards. Has anyone told John Monks this yet?

[High Wing Drifter]

The modular approach will be the future methinks and I know WWW is of the same opinion.
In my humble opinion, the future will be split into two even more distinct streams: Integrated for MPL and Modular for CPL/IR.

[flystudent]

..and so the thread slowly evolves..... lol :zzz: ;)

no offense to anyone

[Send Clowns]

My apologies. The term "self-improver" is too slow to disappear from people's vocabulary, and this is leading to some people receiving bad advice. The post was intended only to be a single aside! However it is also relevant; there used to be a reason a school might put forward integrated students only, as the courses were very different. They no longer are.

[batty]

Oxford graduates Might and I stress the Might have a very slight edge compared to other FTO's. The airlines more often are concerned with wether or not you have gone down the integrated vs the modular route than which FTO you went to.

The posting by Dis80786 saying

in the eyes of the airlines puts Oxford mods/ints ahead of the other schools before we even open a book

smacks of believing all the marketing that is fed to you. Unfortunatly this just isnt true, and I speak as an OATS graduate who was fortunate enough to get a job. The airlines will go to the FTO that they have a history with, be it OATS or wherever.

The edge you will recieve from an FTO like OATS is that they do have limited contacts within certain airlines and if you are one of the very few lucky ones you may get an interview through them. The VAST majority however who get jobs, will do so through their own efforts,not due to which FTO they went to but because of the shear determination they put in to getting the job.

If you go to OATS do so because you have researched all the available FTO options available and you have decided that OATS gives you the best package overall. OATS is good, so are many of the others. You are far more likely to get a job because you have done well than you are to get one because you went to OATS.

One thing I noticed at OATS, about the students was that there were many who believed that the OATS label would get them a job. Many scraped through, put little effort into job hunting and didnt get jobs. Unfortunatly these tended to be the people who had had it given to them on a plate, and hadnt had to work to get into OATS and didnt pay their own fees. The ones who worked hard, got good results, and worked equaly as hard at getting a job where the ones who succeeded, this is the same whatever FTO you go to.

Your fate after graduation is in your own hands, you have to put in as much effort and determination as you did to get through the course in the first place. Should you get a job through the FTO then well done and good on you, however this is in reality a pipe dream. 99% of you will get jobs through contacts, CVs and shear determination. The most important of theses being determination, if you dont have that then find another career.

[porridge]

I would suggest that every Wannabe should print off Battys post and stick it up somewhere and read it regularly to remind themselves of the facts of life in this industry and this advice could be applicable to any other profession.
Well done Batty - that's one of the best posts I've seen on this topic!

[UnderneathTheRadar]

Back on topic for a second:

A&C - unfortunately it's really not news that this practice goes on. All of the big integrated schools - OAT, EPFT, Cabair etc - make it VERY clear when you talk to them that they will only put forward integrated students for airline positions. Lets face it - it's the only logical reason for forking out the extra cash and it's the key marketing tool they have. Having said that, EPFT were giving hints recently that they believe that they'll soon have more airline placements available than integrated students (competent ones anyway) and so modular students might get a look-in - but I would suspect they'll find some way of charging you for that which is fair enough in context of the the current market philosophy.

But like WWW (Lord of the modular wannabees - all hail WWW!) says often on these boards, integrated courses are not necessary the way to airline jobs. As a modular student I (have to(!)) believe that if the market picks up then integrated students will struggle as airlines will be forced to look outside their current cost driven recruitment methods as the average integrated student quality will fall and the vested self-interest of the schools will eventually affect the bottom line of the final employer.

To dis80786 - if you've not got a limitless supply of cash and have saved to DIY then why go integrated? What do you think you'll achieve that's worth 20k? As an integrated student it's almost expected these days that you'll also pay for your 737 rating - how will you afford that if needs be?

The key question I'd love to ask integrated students is 'how will you get a job if you're NOT recommended by your FTO?' Surely the risk of having a big L stamped on your forehead means you should be paying LESS than a modular student for taking the risk? Ask OAT what happens to their graduates who don't get put forward.........

So yes - the current system is that integrated go forward, better modular get left behind. In fairness - caveat emptor applies to modular students too - if you didn't know this going in then there is no point bleating about it now! Personally, my risk profile is relying on the big employers realising/being forced to accept that taking students from FTOs with differing financial aims is not a long term viable option. Could backfire badly but you never know (which is what makes it fun really!).

Viva la revolution.......

UTR