NZ ATO Safety Record

[Far Canard]

Is the safety record for NZ CAA Part 135 Air Transport on the decline?

In such a small aviation environment the string of fatal crashes must make the stats look bad.

Christchurch Chieftain
Taranaki Seneca
Cable bay Cessna

[mattyj]

Definately...I have been flying around NZAA for the last couple of years VFR P135 building hours and the NZ weather just keeps getting worse and worse!! Every second day is VFR marginal and the wind!! I can't count the number of times I have hit my head on the roof of my 172.... Anybody else still wearing winter woolies in December? I'm not surprised by the accident rate

[flying ginge]

doesn't that just :mad: you off when you pull your lap belt has hard as it will go without de-sexing yourself, and you still manage to hit your head! Enough of this crap wx!!

[Sqwark2000]

Interesting thread,

A bit surprised myself at the lack of a thread for the Salt Air crash up at Cable Bay. Would be an interesting one as both the Seneca crash at Mt Taranki & the Cessna at Cable Bay both involved VFR aircraft "probably" pushing the boundries of VFR weather which the conditions described in both accidents were worse than the ATO minimum's of 1000' agl and 5km visibility.

Of the three accidents, 2 involved (from what I'm aware of) experienced pilots & 2 were VFR flights crashing in marginal weather. I can't remember the last fatal ATO accident prior to the Chieftain, was it the Sounds Air Caravan??, again the Sounds Air caravan was VFR in less than VFR weather.

S2K

[Sqwark2004]

Can we expect to see more of this sort of thing happening now that the airlines have taken on a lot of the more experienced people from G.A.?

How many people are going to push the limits just to get another couple of hours, be they single or multi, just so that they can get the TT to get on the next round of interviews?

How many operators are going to make their pilots feel guilty about filing an IFR plan 'because of the extra costs & time involved' ?

Makes you think, dosen't it.

[stillalbatross]

If you have a look at the stats for the last 10-20 years I think you are something like 7 times more likely to die in an ATO aircraft in NZ than in the UK (or possibly France or Germany) Unfortunately CAA in NZ don't compare themselves or the stats to anywhere much further afield than Fiji so things always are and will always be peachy from where they sit. Understandable since any problem or blame will fall at their doorstep. Which is sad if you've lost loved ones in ATO accidents in recent years but I can't see their attitude or approach ever changing. If anything I think the NZ CAA will turn their back more and more on changes and advances going on in aviation in Europe and the USA, you only have to look at how totally and utterly different our licensing system is to pretty much all the rest of the western world.

[Swamp Donkey]

Folks,

I don't think we should be placing the Air Aventures crash in the same basket as the other recent accidents. I for one am hoping the department will get the slamming it deserves over it's failure to apply the system and ground the individual/company involved.

Whilst NZ does have a high accident rate it must be remembered we live in a land of diverse terrain and weather conditions.

Unfortunately I can see the CAA getting all silly and carried away...

[stillalbatross]

I would disagree there and say the weather in Europe or the US is considerably worse. Just look at the winters or the terrain in the alps of France. I don't really think we can take our crappy operating procedures and hide them behind the excuse that the terrain and weather are too challenging so accidents are unavoidable. Like I said, a fundamental shift has to take place in how the CAA operates and they may have to look at what other aviation authorities do. But that would entail admitting there is a problem.

[haughtney1]

Swamp I have to disagree with your comments....I wonder if you have flown outside NZ at any point?(thats not a dig at you..just an enquiry). In my own experience of NZ...Oz..Asia...USA..and latterly northern Europe, I would suggest that in NZ you are blessed with a climate that is wholly lacking in unexpected and unavoidable weather. I lost a very good friend with the Convair crash off Paraparaumu.....had my friend experienced the weather in Northern Europe I am exposed to on a daily basis..rather than what is considered by the TAIC as an "isolated & severe" event..he may well be alive today.
I would suggest that the comparatively high accident rate has far more to do with lower aircrew situational awareness(is it training?..Im not sure)..coupled with smaller companies operating antiquated equipment in situations where the aircraft and crew push beyond the limits for what they are capable of..or designed.
My personal opinion is that the NZ CAA need to look outwardly far more than they presently do...and learn the lessons from places that have far more aircraft operating....have far more experience in diverse situations...and have a far better understanding of the bigger picture. Happily the recently released Icing handbook is a step in the right direction..so I am hopefull.


H



:ok:

[Split Flap]

NZCAA admit they have a problem?

Not in this lifetime buddy. They are all to busy running around covering up each others mistakes, arses and credit card expenses.

But I think thats what you meant :ok:

[prospector]

Split Flap,
A good r'esum'e.

Interesting to see how long it takes for this new scheduled Air Transport operation that is supposed to be doing something like twelve legs a day, seven days a week, all VFR, to be carried out with one Cessna Caravan takes to get an AOC, bearing in mind recent coroners court proceedings in ChCh re Air Adventures. It was supposed to have commenced operations 1 Dec 04.

Prospector

[haughtney1]

Prospector...I bet the CAA are doing their level best to create the paperwork equilvalent of an obstacle course for this new operator.....or mayby storing things up for later.:mad:

[Swamp Donkey]

Fair comment guys - having travelled the US and Europe I can appreciate the foul weather they experience day in and day out.....perhaps we are different in the sense that we ask a lot of (usually) inexperienced guys in old machinery to fly to fly remote unattended airfields........don't think must US/European pilots would have experienced the delights of an NDB approach at an unattended field in the middle of the night in a bitching easterly.....

The one thing we seem to have agreement on is the general incompetency of CAA......whilst I don't wont to generalise the impression I get of them is a group of individuals who have had crack at commercial aviation, failed and now seek a placed to justify there existence (oxygen thieves).....in any other "business" the director's head would have long rotted away on the board room floor - anyway

merry christmas folks....

P.S Split Flap - have you got any 'runs on the board' yet? Or are you finding the (higher) quality of purnary in this fair city a little too challenging.....? (Score 3 - 0)

[NoseGear]

HEEEEEEEEEEE HAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWW:p :p :E

Merry Xmas Splitty and SD

Nosey

[stillalbatross]

SD - They're doing NDB approaches because it's NDB's that the aussies have decomissioned first. So, since NZ prides itself on being third world, they've bought the NDB's (I was told at scrap value) off the aussies and are throwing more of those up where they see fit. While Oz gets underway with replacing with GPS app it is thought NZ will get there too but I was told NZ CAA will make sure NZ lags Oz by about 40-50 years. Can't rush into these things.

[haughtney1]

Hey swamp.....I remember the delights of flying a nice NDB into Whakatane..many moons ago......something like 45 kts & gusting out of the east.(something to do with a down-graded tropical storm)......then the sheer at about 500 agl...down to 15kts...talk about sink rate..pucker factor...ahhhhhh NDBs:yuk:

[Split Flap]

Swampa,

No runs on the board yet.

Nosey,

Hope you had a good xmas, regards to the cook and the young scroat.