Flt Sgt doing gate guard duty?! [Archive]

Letsby Avenue

15th Dec 2004, 22:19

SSgt A2 QHI at Shawbury - I regularly had to ditch my students and take 24 hours off to sit in that sh*tty little guard room :} - It used to drive the CO of 705 Sqn nuts.... and why was I there? The dullard RAFP Cpls needed a SNCO to clear their weapons when they came off shift! It was around about this time that I was asked if I was going to extend my service... :yuk: Byeeee.

ZH875

15th Dec 2004, 22:21

However, some units which have few junior ranks have SNCO's as guard and if there is more than one FS on guard shift, then one is Guard commander and others will be guards.

Its been like that at Wyton for years.

Radar Riser

15th Dec 2004, 22:57

If we've got SNCO's doing guard duty, does this mean that the O's will start doing guard commander:E

Yeah, right, what was I thinking of!:rolleyes:

Mind you, if OC Blunt see's this..........

wg13_dummy

15th Dec 2004, 23:11

ZH,

Its been like that at Wyton for years.

And us dung chompers thought we had it bad!!

I seem to remember Sgts on pilot courses had to do Gd Comd. At least the RSM would never let SNCO's do the RAFP resettlement course- gate goes up, gate goes down.

Milt

15th Dec 2004, 23:30

Guard Duty Problems

You won't believe this.

Not long off flying course in RAAF and now a bogey fighter pilot on Mustangs at Iwakuni in Japan. Rank was Pilot 4, equivalent corporal but entitled to use of Sgt's mess. Stupid post WW2 RAF NCO ranking system adopted by RAAF for a while.

Korean war had started and am now flying combat ops. Adminos had been rostering us bogeys for guard duty before the war. Very quickly fronted up to the CO with the proposition that we either do guard duty or fly. We flew.

Big Cat Handler

16th Dec 2004, 08:21

If we've got SNCO's doing guard duty, does this mean that the O's will start doing guard commander

Radar Riser,

Yes! I believe some lucky, lucky people off my IOT were sent to hold before specialist training - at Digby, as Guard Commander!

BCH

KPax

16th Dec 2004, 08:26

Up until recently on Christmas Day the Stn Execs used to cover the Gate between 12 & 2 so that the guys could get their Xmas Dinner, was a good touch much appreciated by all at Shawbury. PS it's not a bad idea for NCA to do some guard duty, they know very little about service life, they don't even do IMLC or AMLC.

SirToppamHat

16th Dec 2004, 08:44

Officers as Guard Commander?

Been there done that and seen it since. Not just for 'holding offrs' either. At my last Unit it was a joint requirement to be picked up by the JOs and the SNCOs.

Glad to see that most of our guards are now MoD Guard Service.

STH

Stupid Boy

16th Dec 2004, 11:17

KPax, agree that NCA should do Guard Duty as some, but not all, are direct entrants. However, a large proportion including myself are former ground trades and have already done our fair share of this stuff. Yes we have not done IMLC or JMLC as ground trades do, but as my wife has just completed IMLC I find that our courses at Finningley/Cranwell are comparable and physically much harder. ;)

RAF_Techie101

16th Dec 2004, 12:20

Up here in the north the NCA do Guard Commander all the time. We wouldn't have enough SNCO's to cover it otherwise...

teeteringhead

16th Dec 2004, 12:33

Up until recently on Christmas Day the Stn Execs used to cover the Gate between 12 & 2 so that the guys could get their Xmas Dinner, was a good touch much appreciated by all at Shawbury. What! You mean thay don't do it any more!

Clearly they don't make Station Execs like they used to......;) ;)

Ginger Beer

16th Dec 2004, 15:18

Frankly,

Having witnessed Flt Sgts' checking numptys' passes on the main gate, I find it astounding that the "grownups" see fit to pay up to £46k a year for his services !!!

That's right, £46k is the top wack that a Flt Sgt can earn these days, check the pay scales.

What a waste of taxpayers money and how innefficient it is?

No problems with doing grd cdr however, any jnco worth his salt should be doing that one too.

What a waste.

Ginge.

FatBaldChief

16th Dec 2004, 15:26

I am a fat bald chief and I do guard as required. It seems that every time I am promoted my new rank is included in the guarding rosters soon after.
It is a conspiracy to sap my morale.
I don't mind doing my bit for Q and C but feel that I could be doing more productive things with my time.
Then again Guard gives me time to polish my head and eat pies so it is not all bad.

fatbaldandoften'BarrierupBarrierdown' :8

Big Tudor

16th Dec 2004, 15:53

KPax
I recall a few years ago now, the Shawbury Station Commander appearing at the Guard Room on Xmas Day bearing a bottle of Glenmorangie's finest. Guard commander pointed out that loaded SLRs and p1ssed airmen don't mix so Stn Cdr bid a merry farewell and disappeared, bottle still in hand. I hope he enjoyed it! :{

DP Harvey

16th Dec 2004, 20:41

The main gate at Innsworth is manned by SNCOs 24/7. Obviously there are not enough JRs there to do it. The Sgt on the gate told me that he does it for 1 week in every 10.

As we spoke, 20 yds away in the MGR was a MOD plod eating up the hrs and minutes of the day entering personal and car data into a pc (using only 2 fingers of course) so that the visitors can all have nicely printed temporary passes to show the SNCO on the gate and impress the mobile RAFplods on the unit.

The time taken for a visitor to park his car 50 yds away in the vistors car park, get to the front of the lengthy queue (caused by the MOD plod and his pc), walk back to the car and get to the SNCO was clearly longer than the time that the SNCO (MOD plod, preferrably) would have taken to hand write the same info at the gate itself.

Total cost to the tax payer: 60K a year at least.

Brilliant, system......f@@king brilliant.

polyglory

16th Dec 2004, 22:46

Some things never change:(

JessTheDog

17th Dec 2004, 10:11

The rank system needs looked at, particularly with regard to responsibilities. It may have been appropriate for a SNCO to act as guard commander back in the days when there were lots of bodies - that is not the case nowadays. If an Army Corporal can act as section commander, why can't a RAF Corporal act as guard commander?

jayteeto

17th Dec 2004, 10:44

When I did flying training, the officers did guard duty at Shawbury. Only last year, the station decided that all junior officers would qualify for that duty if the security alert stayed high for a bit longer. I had to tell my spec aircrew officers, some with 30 years service the good news. They would have been working for a SNCO Guard Commander. (Not rumour by the way.)

Sideshow Bob

17th Dec 2004, 11:26

KPax
You're talking out of your @r$e!!! I am NCA, I also completed GST1 & TMT1 as it was then, and I also spent 12 years taking my turn on guard duty. After 18 years I think I know enough about service life. By the way I also dislike small-minded individuals who believe that because you are NCA you found your tapes in a corn flake box.

Mad_Mark

17th Dec 2004, 12:56

Hear! Hear! Sideshow :ok:

NCA earn their rank in the same way that the officer brethren do, by passing an intensive training course, and many of us after spending several years as groundcrew. Many of you commissioned types may be surprised to hear that IOT and AAITC are very similiar both physically and academically. Obviously officers need to be taught how to use a knife, fork and spoon and spend more time learning thier primary role, that of being a career officer (i.e. how to s#!t on your men to get advancement :uhoh: ).

KPax, you really are a CR(S) tw@ :oh:

MadMark!!! :mad:

KPax

17th Dec 2004, 13:28

I have worked with NCA for nearly 30 years now and have nothing but the utmost respect for them, however when you do the IMLC & AMLC and you have very senior GD officers saying that it is a great concern that the NCA don't do these courses. Some may think that they are a load of twaddle however getting 24 FS's on one course proved a real eye opener. The other concerns that these officers had was having spent a long time on a squadron you then faced a ground tour where you were reporting on JR's, now I am not saying you know nothing about report writing (who does), but the Gp Capt who briefed us said 'it is one of our priorities to get ALL SNCO's on to the AMLC & IMLC. However when it comes down to it we are all part of the team and I do not wish to offend anyone, so if I have pls accept my apologies. PS Merry Xmas and a Guid New Year.:O

Mad_Mark

17th Dec 2004, 13:36

you have very senior GD officers saying that it is a great concern that the NCA don't do these courses

That would be because NCA do the AACMT Pt1 & 2 courses.

MadMark!!! :mad:

Skeleton

17th Dec 2004, 14:03

NCA have not come up through the ranks, have not got "hands-on" experience and do not get there SNCO status through competitive promotion amongst there peers.

Maybe thats why terms like "Real" SNCO exist.

The flying brevet works both ways.

left one o clock

17th Dec 2004, 14:31

Big Cat,
What constitutes 'hands on experience' please?
Thankyou.

KPax

17th Dec 2004, 14:41

This is not supposed to be a contest. All I am trying to put across is that the NCA have a different set of skills and training that CAN on occasion leave them at a slight disadvantage when they go on a ground tour. I have no doubt that the C130 rear crew have plenty of hands on experience with JR's.

Skeleton

17th Dec 2004, 15:04

Fair one KPax, I meant in general.

Sideshow Bob

17th Dec 2004, 15:18

Skeleton
Yet another to$$er talking cr@p. I have come up through the ranks, I have "hands-on" experience, and I believe OASC is one of the biggest competitions for enhancing your career in the RAF, you are not only competing against your own trade but the rest of the airforce and civilians too. What's a matter did you not make it through selection or were you simply not good enough to be even considered. I didn't know the term "Real" SNCO and "Plastic" SNCO actually existed in the RAF, I thought it was just made up by jealous small minded individuals who didn't have the gumption to get off their backsides and do the hard work to further their careers

Anita Bush

17th Dec 2004, 15:29

Skelington

and do not get there SNCO status through competitive promotion amongst there peers.

Do you mean non NCA peers? How would that work then?

Oh dear, I had better tell the desk officers that my last two promotions are worthless.............and my elevation onto the PA spine................and my top level of flying pay......oh the shame of it all....and I worked so hard to get here;)

NCA left the old time promotion system in favour of competitive promotion some years ago my good fellow. Best check your facts.

To qualify for promotion we have to pass our command management training courses (Part1 - Sgt to FS, Part2 FS to MACR).

FatBaldChief

17th Dec 2004, 15:39

Is this about Gate guards or playground NCA bashing?

Sorry lost the thread me.

If you want to bash the flying snecks please start a 'Lets Bash the NCA' thread.

FatbaldandlovesallSNCO'sequally :8

Anita Bush

17th Dec 2004, 15:58

.......oh yes..and I've done my share of Gate Guard, Guard Commander, Ord Sgt and Ord Officer......

Skeleton

17th Dec 2004, 17:19

: hmmm: Touchy or what, nothing changes then.

Nobody said you Slideshow Bob, but seeing you’re being so pleasant I will give you the respect you deserve and ignore you completely.

To the rest:

I said in general, In fact I will qualify that and say in my experience of NCA.

And if it is competitive promotion to Sgt (I didn't mention above that rank) then I apologize, I must have missed something.

I am not "anti" NCA as it happens; far from it, worked with you long enough to know that. It’s a different skill set you guys possess in my opinion that’s all. One that does not, or should not preclude you from doing the gate. (Again in my experience many NCA seem to think there flying status should preclude them from doing the gate.)

But ok Anita Bush seeing your so rich, its your round again :)

Still beats me how they pay someone £100 a day and shove him on the gate though. Bet that would not happen in a civvy company.

Anita Bush

17th Dec 2004, 17:50

"Same again?"

"I don't mind if I do"

"Large one Sir?"

"None of your business!":p

Mad_Mark

17th Dec 2004, 18:36

I am not "anti" NCA as it happens; far from it, worked with you long enough to know that. It’s a different skill set you guys possess in my opinion that’s all. One that does not, or should not preclude you from doing the gate. (Again in my experience many NCA seem to think there flying status should preclude them from doing the gate.)

I think you'll find that we think that our SNCO status should preclude us from the gate unless ALL SNCO's, regardless of trade or specialisation, have to do it. We already do Guard Commander, and so do our share of the guard duty, just like all SNCO's.

As I said earlier, NCA earn their rank in the same way as officers earn theirs, by passing an intensive course of training. If that makes NCA lower than a 'real' SNCO then it should equally mean that officers fall into that same category :ooh: I look forward to seeing junior officers manning the gate in the mornings :ok:

MadMark!!! :mad:

Skeleton

17th Dec 2004, 18:48

I don't think MadMark any SNCO should be on the gate purely on economic grounds, and that includes Guard Commander.

My last camp they got rid of the feds, and then paid lots more money to a SNCO Guard Commander to unload and load the bobbies that were left.

:confused:

Junior Officers on the gate... now theres a thought, no maybe not :uhoh:

JessTheDog

17th Dec 2004, 19:02

What really p!sses me off:

Camps (such as many RAF ones) that straddle a main road or are on split sites, that require multiple guards.

Spend a bit of money and either rationalise the sites onto one side or follow the example of Culdrose and have only one entrance into one site but a raised footbridge linking them both (I think). Mind you, RN bases are seen as ships so it's probably called a gangplank!

Sadly it is easier to screw guys around than spend money.

And please don't get me started on the many flaws and iniquities of the High Wycombe sites - I won't stop!:E

Daveholio

17th Dec 2004, 20:24

I spent last week on night guard down at Halton, and the mutterings between the guard commander and orderly officer when he/she popped their head in the guard room door was that soon SNCOs will be manning the gate as well, with Junior Officers taking up the guard commander role. Seems a bit strange to me when you have a very high concentration of ACs to man the gate instead!

Incidentally, now that direct entrant NCAs start of at Halton with the lowly rank of AC (like myself), it is more than likely that they will do a stint on guard before they move on to NCAITC at Cranwell. Infact all of the potential aircrew on my RTS intake have had guard duty over the last two weeks, being told 'well you'll never have to do it again, so make the most of it'. Looks like that might not necessarily be the case anymore!

Always_broken_in_wilts

17th Dec 2004, 20:47

Now here's a thought..... what about at each unit EVERYONE Cpl and below takes their turn at gate guard and all SNCO's take their turn at Guard Commander:ok:

Here in wilts there are lots who are exempted citing "duty stacker/blunty" blah blah, let alone those who "Scuff" or those who teach mine clearance:} If everyone took their turn it would make the pill a little easier to swallow:ok: Just a thought!

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

Jobza Guddun

17th Dec 2004, 21:40

Quite right ABIW.

At the College of Knowledge in the late 80's early 90's, Harry Staish was a particularly pleasant fella named E* J*****, and in my time there, he saw to it that during the week of Christmas/New Year, IOT cadets and most of the JO's manned the gates. With himself and his Wg Cdrs doing a stint on Christmas Day I might add.

This was a brilliant scheme for us JR's and much appreciated, to the point where nobody really minded doing 3 stints per year the other 51 weeks, as we knew we wouldn't get jacked over Xmas.

Obviously not manageable anywhere else, but thanks to anyone who did a stint at the time!!:ok:

And a word for those officers and seniors who seem to enjoy snarling and huffing at the guards when they come through the gate:- no, we don't know who you are, after a hundred cars and countless pedestrians its difficult to remember faces. Thats why we check ID's, not to deliberately make you late for the briefing / meeting you're rushing to. Give me stick, I'll just bonnet and boot yer each time I see you. .:}

And yes, I know it's a two-way thing, that's why I always keep my end of the deal; a smile and greeting costs nothing.

jayteeto

18th Dec 2004, 08:22

ABIW. Absolutely right on the button old chap. Not just non commissioned ranks either. In Ireland, you will remember half the people didn't do duties because they did Duty Rock or Duty Policeman etc etc. We did freaking duty everything as aircrew but still did SDO. At sleepy shawbury, the DHFS senior officers (there are a lot) did not participate in the station duties because they were a 'lodger unit'. The easy answer is that EVERYONE should be elligible for duties, NO exceptions. Talk about a simple answer.....

Hoots

18th Dec 2004, 14:21

As a so called plastic or unreal SNCO according to other in this thread, I find comments such as KPAX and Skeleton really narrow minded. As one who has followed the rank structure done GST at Hereford etc before changing over to NCA, I feel that i am like many others qualified to comment on this subject. In my previous life i was an L Tech AD, working on Rapier Sqns for 7 years both in Scotland and in Germany. Although a technician, being on a regiment sqn meant doing your fair share of guard duty. A few examples are manning the Cruise Missile site at Greenham Common for a month doing 12 on 12 off with a wednesday swing shift, when CND was at its peak. Manning the gate and doing armed off base patrols at Wildenrath when the IRA giving the German bases a hard time (army included of course). Having Sqn members killed (RIP Ian Shinner) and wounded is not a pleasant experience but one that brings home the reasons for doing guard duty. It is only a deterence and to be fair if they cant get you on the gate they'll get you elsewhere if need be, ask the wife of the late RAF Cpl and his 6 month old daughter, (names witheld) murdered in Wildenrath village by the IRA. So even now when I am guard commander, i can appreciate the reasons why i'm doing it. With a 16% manpoer reduction in the RAF between now and 2008 i suggest that having SNCO's on the gate is something we will see more and more of. Returning to the plastic snco comment, around 50% of NCA are ex ground tradres, some where even Sgts before changing over, not only within the RAF but army also. So before people go making general comments about plastic NCA etc. give it some thought. I appreciate that a lot of the ground trades are working bloody hard, and cant always do their primary job due to guard duty but until the forces are properly funded and all get mod plods or the military guard service its going to get worse. But when i think of the reason of why we do guard duty then its something i will accept and tolerate until we get the required manpower.

Pontius Navigator

18th Dec 2004, 14:48

Jubza Gudun, so that's where EJ went. Did you evry see him making notes with his hand in his pocket? Or ever see him with inch long pencils? But that's another story.

At the ANS at Finningley in the late 80s the nav studes stopped doing orderly officer and became guard commanders. SDOs were demoted to orderly officer. Nothing is new.

While I agree that it is a waste of resources to misemploy someone on £46k per year most guards are extra duties and therefore 'free'. Only when holding a firehose can the bill be passed on to 2-Jags.

KPax

18th Dec 2004, 16:09

Who introducd the phrase 'Plastic Sgt' into the thread. I find the term offensive.

jayteeto

18th Dec 2004, 16:15

The term is offensive and has been for the last 24 years I was in the RAF. It is not new....

The Gorilla

18th Dec 2004, 17:30

Hoots

Couldn't agree with you more, was exactly the same as you down to rank and trade!

I always used to just smile at the narrow mindedness of it all!

Having seen it from both sides of the fence I would say there are a small number of NCA Sgts who are dissapointing in their standards but I have seen an equal number of "real" SNCO's let the side down badly as well. That's life though and can be quite entertaining! (Not referring to anyone on E3's before I get PM'd!!)

Going back to the original thread, SNCO's doing gate guard has to become more common as the Farce gets smaller and yes eventually you will see Junior Officers doing it as well!! I was at Finningley in the late 80's when the IRA stepped up a cog. We had an RAF of 99K then but Finningley still had to put Sgt's and Officers onto guard duties, went on for weeks.

It is quite simple maths which very few senior Air Officers have yet to grasp. If you have less people doing the same amount of work or even more work, then EVERYONE no matter what their rank has to get involved in the mucky stuff!!

And if you don't like it you have a choice, you can always leave!

:ok:

Spotting Bad Guys

18th Dec 2004, 20:52

Not sure if this is entirely correct, but I seem to recall that there was some reg or other precluding the use of airmen/airwomen under basic or professional training as live-armed guards.....

Different times, I know but when I was an apprentice (yeah, yeah...) on guard, only the permanent staff were armed. (SLR, with magazine, no rounds of course). This could have been a local reg though.

SBG

SRENNAPS

18th Dec 2004, 23:14

Nice to see an old topic re-visited with not much change in the responce. Please see my old thread "Station Guard Force Meals".

For most in this thread, Guard Force seems to be something that everybody seems to have done at some time in their life, and for a lot of people a a light hearted adventure they have been through . And that includes aircrew and NCA that may have ended up doing it because of politically correct desicions to make the erks feel better. The reallity is that Guard is an absolute essential part of our life. BUT!!!

As a CT who has been in a mere 26 years I have to do Guard and I get on with it. (I hasten to add Guard and not Guard Commander).

However for people like us that do it "ON A REGULAR BASIS" it can be quite frustrating and humiliating. Last year I was sat on the gate about 2 in the morning and a high ranking officer I knew came in. His remark was "What the F$%K are you doing on guard, and at 2 in the morning on the gate".
When you are doing a good job in the RAF within your trade, you feel like a million dollars. Then you realise that you are just an erk and 26 years means nothing more than sitting on the gate at 2 or 3 in the morning.
I have no doubt that many peoaple here will say "Well if you dont like it - Get out" Easy answer.
Well mark my words the rank of "ERK" is getting higher. Then the norm will be to have Officers as Guard Cmd's, WO and SNCOs as Guards and SAC's gate openers - we cant possibily trust them with a gun!!!!!

One final note, NCA, I got to know you on Chinooks. You are a great bunch of lads/lasses - stop trying to prove yourselves to thoses higher or lower than yourselves. You do a great job.

PS I am quite minged and a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.

insty66

18th Dec 2004, 23:26

Like most here I believe common sense should prevail and Guard duty should be the responsibility of all on camp ( iaw WS Churchill's edict about us not being armed civillians);)
HOWEVER I do not like seeing Chiefs and above stood on the gate but that is because I reckon they have "been there" and are probably better placed to pass their experience on than any others in the system but from the outside.
Jobza forgot to mention that at our picturesque home the Regt section, with friends, do the gate twice a year ( at least until recently) and that is/was usually v. well recieved.

Gorilla When I returned to Finningley in 1989 I was astounded to find a Cpl manning the Gate and when I mentioned this to him the look I got was pure "who the hell are you?" It didn't take too long to have my turn defending us from the PIRA and the Bawtry commandos!

As for "plastic" Sgts we ground crew only ever referred to those in training at Finn as Plastic the rest were Sgts as they all got pi$$ed in the mess.
BTW is it true the Sgts mess used to have Ex CPLs nights?:E