Terms and Conditions for Professional Instructors

[blagger]

I have read a lot on these pages about pay and conditions for PPL instructors - but can anyone give any gen for CPL/professional instructors? (I notice Atlantic FT are advertising in Flight Int this week which got me thinking - is it worth thinking about aspiring to as a second career??)

[Flying Farmer]

Terms and Conditions for Instructors !! in reality there are none, best laugh I have had all day.
Have had many days where the petrol alone has cost more than I have earnt, fruitless drives to the airfield only to find no student, did I hear retainer, oh I fogot we don't get one of those.
Use it for getting the hours or as a hobby, you sure can't make a career out of it. Should add this applies to PPL instruction only.

FF

[King Kenny]

How about $10 an hour for CPL instruction, and yes it was for a JAA CPL!

[RVR800]

Yes, unfortunately ours is a profession that pays what one would get as the common or garden office cleaner.

This situation will continue as long as the supply of instructors exceeds the demand. GAPAN are proposing to do away with the requirement for a CPL so that will encourage many more weekend pilots to join our swollen ranks and this will reduce salaries still further if one believes economic theory. The CAA would then stop the CPL exams (no need)

Really the money is made by the guy who owns & hires out the aeroplane (not the instructor). These owner guys want a plentiful supply of instructors to reduce cost.

The guys that instruct dont even have any insurance in the main so the terms and conditions are really a joke..

Most of this flying game is about vested interest dressed up as quality or safety and the port and wine by the fire brigade are endlessly looking to find ways to feather their own nest and minimise costs.

The whole JAA thing is a case in point - its partly designed to shift the burden of cost onto the pilot from the fare paying public. In the UK that has meant more difficult and expensive licensing and more competition for the jobs thet exist. Good for the low-cost carriers.

We dont know what the stats are on all this expense to UK pilots as the CAA do not freely give information on pilot progression presumably because such info is revenue limiting...?

[NotamCheck]

The worst thing about instructing is by the time your first career pays well enough (say £30K to £40K) and you can afford to train for flying you never want to go back to low income i.e. £15K.

There are some good terms and conditions for some instructors, my insurance is covered, we also have regular (free) training, discounts on aircraft hire etc.

As Flying Farmer says, use it as a hobby, its a great way to meet new faces and very rewarding when you see those students pass a skills test with a big smile.

At least the students know the instructors are doing it for the love and not the money which the same cannot be said for the wannabe airline pilots.

[RVR800]

Yes as NotamCheck says that is my experience also....

My problem is that my day-job ultimately eclipsed the T&Cs for instructing and for any other aviation job when you add it all up..

[homeguard]

RVR800

A very bitter outlook on the whole scene! Not as bad as you make it out.

There are very few flying clubs/schools that make the vast profits that you infer. All clubs must by law hold Employers and Public Liabilty Insurance. Instructors are covered by the policies however they are paid.

The limiting factor with regard to wages, amounts simply, with what the members are prepared and are able to pay. Most clubs in this country and in many others were founded to be just that, clubs. Many of theses clubs are ran and managed by unpaid commitees and just as often by unpaid owners. The law grants an exemption to allow Instructors to be paid (without operating a very expensive AOC) because of this fact. All Instructors must be a member of the same club as the student.

Instructors should consider it a bonus that clubs exist to provide them with the opportunity and experience to progress to Public Transport if that is their wish. The option to pay £60-70,000 is the direct route. I wish that I could pay my Instructors £30,000 per annum to maintain teaching standards and continuity but the money is not there.

Take your venom to the airlines who pay nothing - but for a few exceptions, reducing each year - toward the training of their pilots. I believe that the 2002 census indicates that in excess of 80% of current UK airline pilots are self improvers.

Both the club owners and the Instructors are subsidising the industry. Clubs need the Professional Instructors, full or part time, in line with what GAPAN is suggesting. Clubs cannot exist forever subject to the volitile recruiting demands of the airlines.

[GRIFFIN2000]

Well guys, all instructors dont have it all ****e. I have approx £25000/year regardless of how many hours I fly, paid licence checks, paid Loss of licence insurance, great working schedules, discount travel etc. All this with a normal FTO... So its fully possible to survive as an instructor, just have to be a bit lucky to get the job. Aren`t the guys and gals at Oxford quite well paid?

[D 129]

Instructor Salaries

It would be of interest (to me at least !) to hear what the range of instructor salaries is at the moment ... Here's a few from me and some friends ...

PPL - £ 8 / flight hour
PPL - £ 10 / flight hour + £ 250 / month retainer
PPL - £ 12 / flight hour (restricted)
PPL - £ 17 / flight hour (un-restricted)
CPL - £ 20 / flight hour + £ ??? retainer

CPL / IR / Multi - £ 25 K to £ 35 K (Oxford ???), subject to certain hour thresholds etc etc.

[BEagle]

I run a not-for-profit RF which relies upon a stalwart group of part-time folks to instruct. The deal has always been that we pay home-to-aerodrome-and-back expenses to our FIs (or a small amount for instructional/supervisory time if that's greater), plus give them a free IMC reval and £250 every 3 years towards FI reval. We cannot hope to pay a full-time wage and all our FIs know that.

As Chief Flying Instructor, all I take is £4264 per annum. I also pay for my own revals, Class 1s, personal flying etc - and don't pay myself for turning up.

If we paid a couple of FIs a decent full-time wage, we'd have to up our prices by about £50 per hour. Our 'price sensitive' customers wouldn't countenance that, so as unpalatable as it may be to some, we'll continue to rely upon our part-timers for the foreseeable. That way we can still charge only about £83 per flying hour for dual instruction in FM-immune PA28s with ADF/DME/VOR/ILS/GPS.....

[Send Clowns]

Yes, BEagle, and you keep the pay down for all other flight instructors who have to rely on the money to live (I don't, I have another part-time job that is much better paid). I fly for schools that pay instructors £15 and £20 per hour respectively, and that is not a lot considering the restrictions of flying in the UK. Even they cannot hope to compete on price with you who are saving massively on your labour costs.

D129

Here the rates are up to £30 per hour for CPL, £20 for PPL, and the flying is not especially expensive. The slightly better pay brings in a reliable quality of instructor, and the school has a very professional feel.

homeguardThe option to pay £60-70,000 is the direct routeThis means nothing. There is no such thing as a separate, more expensive, "direct route" any more. Modular and integrated training are now substantially equivalent, and have been for 5 years.80% of current UK airline pilots are self improversWhich cannot have increased much since 2000 when the self-improver route was legislated out of existence.

The only things gained from flight instruction are some flying hours and currency. There is no reduction in cost, in fact it is increased (have you seen the cost of an FI(R) at a decent school?) and of course most instructors could earn more if they worked a bar instead. I agree you cannot substantially increase pay, but there should be a change such that instructors get paid a minimum of £15 per hour. I know places where £12.50 or even £10 is normal, D129 mentions £8, and considering 1 hour flying is at least 2 hours work if instruction is conducted correctly that starts to drop below minimum wage!

[homeguard]

Send Clowns.

You say what you fancy but you are not realistic. Beagle and others like him are not keeping your wages down but on the contrary they are keeping the flying CLUB alive. The 'self improver route' does still exist all be it that it is in a modular form. Doing the PPL/Night/Multi and the IMC ( although no training credit for it ) and hours building at the local club/stateside saves a large lot of dosh in comparison to the cost of the full Intergrated Course, which is not all that much different from the old UK '509' course except in how the training record is written up.

A large number of CLUBS are historically called 'schools' but the schools are as already made clear required to be 'clubs' if they are non AOC in operation. The Chicken and the Egg maybe. The majority of clubs around the country are non profit member owned or ran on a shoestring as an early retirement working hobby. Sometimes they are a beneficial adjunct to something else. i.e. The British Airways Flying Club and the BBC Flying Club.

It has been said the 'SCHOOLS' for commercial pilot training are desperate for Instructors and it would be reasonable for them to pay a good commercial rate for they are teaching those who are wholely there for the purpose of making a living later. Therefore, so should these Instructors be able to earn a good living!

The british 'club', which so many contributors to this site prefer to ravage, is not unique for it is replicated throughout the world. I was in Fredericksburg, Virginia a few years ago and got to know the owner/operator of the airfield/flying club quite well. The husband and wife team worked seven days a week, dawn to dusk to make the place pay. The Instructors were paid 15 dollars per hour.

But there again the USA pilot dosn't have to suffer the same degree of bull**** as it exists in the UK and much of Europe. It is possible in the USA to pass through PPL to CPL/IR with the same Instructor and pay the same hourly rate. The massive cost of the modern day CPL, FIC, IR within the UK is totally unreasonable. Why, because you train as an Airline Pilot and then turn to the 'clubs' for work. It's all upside down i'm afraid.

However, I could put your arguement on its head if you wish. For it is only because people like you are prepared to pay the very high cost of training in the UK that we have a condition of such great debt amongst young prospective commercial pilots. If you didn't get in to such onerous debt it wouldn't be necessary to ask the flying clubs pay off your debts with wages they do not have. The airline should pay for 'Commercial Pilots'. The clubs should pay or not for a Flying Instructor.

[Send Clowns]

Homeguard

Modular training is not self-improver, it consists largely of approved training. This is very different from the old self-improver route - I should know, having taken the whole course and taught an approved part of it for the last 3 and a half years. In relation to the current discussion of instructors this is a fundamental difference, as it is not worthwhile to build hours as a flight instructor towards the CPL/IR (you need more hours to instruct on a PPL than to take a CPL course!). Therefore the hours no longer have the intrinsic value they once did.

BEagle is reducing prices, as his keeping the club alive is at the expense of clubs that pay instructors. Therefore those clubs cannot c harge as much so cannot pay as much. Most clubs I know are limited parterships, owned and run for profit either by enthusiasts with another source of income or by flight instructors. The only flying clubs I could name that are not run for profit are owned by one of the services or by another large organisation, primarily for the benefit of their employees and not open to unrestricted public membership. Even in a non-profit club I don't see the relevance. It is hardly charitable giving to teach flying, even at £83 per hour!

Since I would rather work for a small operator than an airline, and want the flexibility to move as necessary, it would be ridiculous to expect my training to be paid for by an airline, who would then bond me for years.If you didn't get in to such onerous debt it wouldn't be necessary to ask the flying clubs pay off your debts with wages they do not haveIt would still be necessary for me to feed and shelter myself! It is still a skilled profession, and I would still like to earn as much as a decent cleaner or other conscientious manual worker can! That is impossible. Don't assume my financial position - I have no more debts than many mortage holders, adequately covered by the rent I receive.

I never said anywhere I expect a club to pay value for money for my flight training, I just think they should be able to pay a living wage. I sat an FI(R) course that costs over £6,000, and have other background skills, as do my colleagues who are all well-suited to instruction. These are worth more than the £10-12,000 per annum I could get as a full-time instructor, with a legal maximum of £13,500 for 900 hours a year. My employers could not pay much more and still have enough business for me to work. Note that all this applies when I am paid the £15 minimum I suggest! Why do you say others can't pay it? How can you justify saying that this is "not realistic"?

In the US hours do still have intrinsic value, as it is very difficult (almost impossible) to get an airline job with just a CPL/IR, let alone with only a couple of hundred hours. Most companies expect an ATPL, which requires 1500 hours, so the comparrison is the same as the false comparrison with the 509.

[NotamCheck]

Send Clowns - I agree with your comments that non-profit clubs (help) reduce pay for instructors but they are not totally to blame. We, ourselves are not helping as we all knew the pay conditions before starting a FIC costing around £5K to £6K but still continued down that route. Until a real shortage of instructors appears I wouldn't hold out much hope.

On the Wannabees forum is a thread about instructors leaving a well known large flight school. It does prove that schools cannot make terms and conditions worse and still expect instructors to carry on as usual.

[RVR800]

At the end of the day there are just too many of us.....
One elderly FI told me that between the wars it was possible to
make a fair living as an instructor. That changed after the war when all the military pilots swamped the market and the labour rates fell.

Most of the profit? is often made by the guy who owns the aircraft
Owners can sometimes see the FI hourly rate as something that eats into their profit and would probably like to see a return to the 'hobby pilot' PPL/FI days and an end to the professional pilot requirements like the one that exists today. One thing is for certain the legislation will continue be changed - we have had the nPPL .... standby for a national FI rating ..!

The massive cost of the modern day CPL, FIC, IR within the JAR countries is one assumes partly because of the higher standards set by the authorities like the CAA in Europe. Suppose that's why only 25 PPL/IRS get issued every year out of 30,000 PPLs in the UK for example. What about a GA IR that enable flight into controlled airspace to stop all these FAA IR people flying all over Europe? Are there any accident stats that show this to be unsafe I wonder?

On ething is certain the flying schools of the UK and the pilots that frequent them will continue to subsidise the fare paying public.

[offspring]

There are many schools which pay a fair wage to CPL instructors both small and large.

I worked for a very small flight school in the North East which paid £25.00 a day retainer and £35 per hour flight pay teaching JAR CPL. I earned £30K in a year.

You gave the ground school for free.

In addition I got discretionary rates for hiring aircraft and after 1 year the boss got me a job with an airline.

You can't ask for more than that.

My story is not uncommon. I have met many collegues who had a similar experience.

[fibod]

CTC McAlpine were advertising at £38,500 pa last year and are still expanding. I was earning a little less than that when I hung up my flying boots.