good places to do an integrated JAA course in the US

[scientifics]

any help will be very much appreciated.

EFT
Comair
Michigan etc

I am very interested in what your experiences of these places is like.

[BigGrecian]

I'm pretty sure they aren't integrated courses. They are just modular courses that are done with one training establishment all the way through.

[xbilz]

BigGrecian is right. These are just structured modular course. If you search on these keywords you will get loads of information based on some real experiences. Following thread could be a good start.

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140698

Hope this helps.

[scientifics]

I am getting more and more confused. Is EFT modular? Is Delta modular? Are they packing in the instructor thing? whats going on?

[Penworth]

Start by looking in Lasors, there's a pdf file which lists all the current JAA integrated and modular FTO's and groundschool providers. They also show who is approved to carry out FI ratings and MCC's etc. At least that will be a start. Sorry but I don't know whether they are packing in the instructor courses.

PW

[scientifics]

Any chance of a link?

[Penworth]

Approved fto's (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG_FCL_APPROVEDFTOS.PDF)

[BillieBob]

The only complete integrated ATP course in the US was provided by WMU but they have now pulled out of JAA training. Oxford, Lufthansa and, I believe, Sabena do part of their European based integrated courses in the US but all other US based JAA training is modular.

[lostconcern]

I was told by a sales person at Delta Connection Academy last week that they have now also pulled the plug on JAA training and will be offering only JAA PPL's and hour buildings .

[BillieBob]

Well, to be fair, Delta haven't got a plug to pull. It's AFT who have fallen out with Delta and are terminating their sub-contract, Delta have never been approved to provide JAA training in their own right. Presumably, the 'JAA' PPL will be the same ersatz version that UKFT provide - actually a FAA PPL with a JAA 'conversion' tacked on the end.

So, WMU have gone, Delta are going, IFTA is all but finished - is the writing on the wall for overseas JAA training? The CAA's line seems to be that EASA will take responsibility for the overseas training organisations away from the UK and allocate individual organisations to different countries. Given the antipathy in most EU countries to modular training in the US, it could be that these three FTOs are jumping before they are pushed.

[scientifics]

I might be able to scrape 30k-40k together but I won't be able to scrape 60k together. The US was my only hope!!!!!

[scameron77]

Mate,

Have you thought about gaining FAA qualifications but to JAA standards? (From what I understand the JAA require that little bit extra crossing t's and dotting i's).

A few of the operators in the States do this. If you want me to pass on the details of who I intend using after hours of research on here send me a PM. Don't want to be accused of advertising them on an open forum.

Stephen

[scientifics]

When selecting a FO do airlines look where they were actually taught or what qualifications they have? would someone who went to Naples be at a distinct disadvantage to someone who had lots more money and went to Oxford?

I ask this as Jerez, Cabair and Oxford seem to think that they are without a doubt the best around. But surely everyone has to reach the same standard when passing exams?

[Alex Whittingham]

We used to say that airlines were not bothered where you did your training but recently several operators have expressed preferences for students from integrated schools although, to be fair, the BA and BA CityExpress recruiters have now modified that requirement to also include the 'structured modular' courses.

One of the operators' concerns is the failure rate of low hours recruits during their initial type conversion and line training. One way round this is to not formally employ them until line training is complete, this is the attraction of schemes like CTC's and Astreus'. Another option is to tighten up their selection procedure so they don't hire any duffers.

There is no evidence at all to suggest that an integrated school produces better pilots than modular schools. There is quite a bit to suggest that students who have been selected and filtered with decent aptitude tests are less likely to fail than those who haven't. Of course, it has to be a decent selection procedure. There is a second perceived advantage in having students trained 'all in one place', their training records can be easily inspected.

Those are the advantages that some airlines currently see in hiring from the integrated schools and the CTC Wings scheme. We don't really know where it is going to go from here, it may be that they can't afford to be that fussy for long, it may be that other modular providers like Multiflight, EFT and Stapleford will introduce a credible selection procedure. The question still stands, though. Is it worth the extra money? You should be able to provide integrated training as cheap or cheaper than modular, it involves less flying hours.

Back to the 'training in America' question. We only see the PPL groundschool output, and it is dire. It is not unusual to get pilots starting their ATPLs with no idea of the difference between heading and track and who are completely unable to use the nav computer. I understand flying standards are higher, although people I know who run IR schools are scathing about some of the 'IR preparation' training done in the States.

[edited for spelling]

[scientifics]

What about somewhere like Naples. The IR there has some sections done in the UK. Is that a good place to go?

[Biscuit]

At the recent BALPA Employment Opportunities Conference a couple of airlines did express a preference for Integrated students. However, these airlines were hardly recruiting anyone over the next year e.g. six FOs. So it was no factor on the grand scheme of things.

I think the problem with doing a PPL in a short time out in the US is trying to grasp the fundamentals of the ground school and learn to fly the aircraft is quite demanding. You may get the ticks in the boxes but thoroughly understanding everything is another matter (I did mine in the US). Most people in the UK doing PPLs will do it over many weekends and thus have plenty of time to absorb all the new information they are learning.

Biscuit

[scameron77]

Scientifics,

Simple as this mate, if you are learning to drive you can go for lessons over a number of weeks or an intense course.

In the US you can fly virtually every day because of the weather, from what I'm lead to believe the FAA qualifications look more for practical pilot skill where as the JAA look to see that you know the theory before flying in an aircraft.

Yes the airspace rules are different to a degree as is the communication with ATC and charts. But I defy anyone on here to say that someone with the nonse to attain a PPL can't master the UK equivalent information upon their return. As for open airspace in the UK versus congested airspace here, I'd say pick a flying school based in a high density area, problem solved.

Also if you overrun in the UK, you go home and then return to the school as and when you can. In the US you have a flight booked and work to get back for, so there is a greater degree of urgency to get everything finished.

In the UK you may have distractions and as sure as the sun will rise in the East tomorrow, you'll be grounded on a few occasions because of our inclement weather.

All I can to you is, if you opt for the US ensure you pick a school with a good track record and when you phone up offering your business (rember £3/4 grand for a PPL to £30/40 grand for a fAPTL gives you the right to question them rigourously), ask pertinent questions such as, where are the intructors from, what qualifications do they have and from which authority?

Stephen

['I' in the sky]

Billiebob,

Quote: "IFTA is all but finished" - can you expand ?

[boredaccountant]

To answer the original question, the EFT APP scheme is a full-time structured Modular course with encorporates the strenghts and weakness of both Modular and Integrated training. The course can be completed in almost identical time to that of an integrated course, like Jerez or Oxford but the price more closely resembles modular training, so its a ' win win ' choice for the student. The course allows students to choose their own ground-school provider with many of us taking -up distance learning full-time whilst living with our parents back in the UK. You can then decide which training provider is best. Other students feel that full-time ground-school is more beneficial for them. But it is only ourselves that know which system of learning most suits us. This is why the EFT APP scheme is so student friendly and in my opinion a great choice. I'm currently doing phase 2 with Bristol back in the UK and was very happy with everything in phase 1.

If you have any other questions about the EFT APP please PM me and i'd be happy to answer them!!

Regards, William

[nasher6]

can you shed some light on the IFTA situation?:confused:

[kurty]

I visited all the major ' JAA ' providers in florida 4 weeks ago. I took a 5 day trip out there to see them personally. I was very disappointed with what I found. Websites make them look very professional but they are no more than a 3 room operation with the exception of Delta and OFT. But as someone said Delta aren't offering the program anymore just PPL and hour building.

Anyone needs more info just message me

[RVR800]

I find it amazing that any FAA IR people are allowed to land at Heathrow at all if what one hears is correct.

Mavbe there should be a change in international law!

Most of this stuff is about vested interest dressed up as safety and has nothing to do with the accident rates for FAA IR vs JAA IR trained people....

The schools in the UK would say that.. if ICAO IRs issued in the US were directly tranferable into a JAA IR they would be out of work....

[Alex Whittingham]

OK, but I've no axe to grind, as far as I'm concerned you can do your IR where you want.

I don't think your argument is right, though. It works for Heathrow because the R/T and procedures into and out of big airports are fairly international and usually pretty straightforward. That makes the argument sound good but it's less convincing when you consider small regional airports and the more difficult and ritualised aspects of the IR test. I would be prepared to bet that most FAA ATPL holders would fail a JAA IR test if they had to do it without any preparation, in a Duchess, flying out of somewhere like Exeter or Bournemouth.

Before I get jumped on, I also doubt a UK ATPL holder could pass an American IR test without being properly prepared in theatre. Apart from the flying, the oral exam would blow his/her socks off.