Zimmer frame hampering entry into Sea King cockpit

[Pielander]

Hello. I'd just like to fish for some advice from Fleet Air Arm type people if I may.

I have recenty passed AIB. Good news, but sadly not all that good, as I am near the age limit for pilot, and the last entry I can make is next July.

My AIB score was a bit ropey but my FAT scores were good, and when I spoke to the selection officer, his main concern was my age. He seemed to think I may or may not get called up, largely depending on things such as blind luck.

This is all a bit woolly for my liking and I'd like to do something about it. I have two things 'in my pocket' that I believe could help to swing the decision, and I would appreciate any advice on how I might best use them.

Firstly, I am an engineer with an Aero Engineering degree. I understand that the RN is short of air engineers, so I figure that this could at least be my ticket to Dartmouth (thus also mitigating against my ropey AIB score). I also understand that air engineers can turn into 'test pilots', although this makes no sense to me, since I thought that test pilots had to be experienced pilots for starters. I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me on what the job entails, and exactly how one would go about getting it. Would this be a nifty way around the age problem, or would it waste even more time and make the problem worse?Could it be my most promising chance of becoming a pilot, or an I more likely to get stuck as an engineer (and probably do less flying than I do now!)?

Secondly, I have about 300 hours flying experience, 200 of which have been training and instructing on Air Cadet gliders and motorgliders over the past three years. I do not clain to know it all, or pretend to be a 'proper pilot' (after all, all we do is circuits, and gliders are not helicopters are they?!), but I do strongly believe that this experience makes me far less of a training risk that someone who is, say, two or three years younger, but has never so much as touched a control column in their life. I am tempted to point this out to the selection officer when (or if?) I get my medical and clearances through, but I'm not sure if it will do me any good.


Many thanks,


Pielander.


P.S. I have even given up pies* for the Navy. What more do they want?!

* With the exception of Admiral's Pie

[Dancing Bear]

Pielander,

Not an engineer but hope this helps a little.

Yes Air Engineering Officers can apply for flying training once they have completed Dartmouth, ISC, in service Engineering training or equivalent, an appointment as an Assistant AEO and then a complement appointment as a Deputy AEO, not as I am sure you will agree a rapid evoloution. As far as I am aware the age restriction for AEO's is not the same as pipeline aircrew but I believe there is still a limit, which may be a factor considering your late starting point. The other side of it we have more AEO's than engines in the Fleet Air Arm (including all the spares in the repair train!!) but are desperately short of Observers and then Pilots!!

As for pointing out your lack of training risk to anybody, I have to say IMHO it really doesn't make much of a jot of difference post the initial phase of training. They will already be looking at you slightly differently due to your age, more mature, applied and wordly wise approach.

At the end of the day throw whatever you have to at them to try and convince them but the decision is beyond the level of any of those you can reall talk to. The AIB decides upon the selection point by the score you achieved during the board, they are told the numbers for the entry and fill the requirement form the top down, so there is little you can do to influence that.

The good news is the pipeline is starting to have larger intakes thrown at it so you may be in luck, roll on the good old days of the early 90's when intakes of 52, 3 times a year were common, only way I got in!!

One final note, do not believe everything the recruiters tell you and ensure that if it sounds to good to be true it probably is! You cannot change from Observer to Pilot (as many of my course were told) nor are you guaranteed any particular airfcraft type as others have intimated, once you are in you are there to achieve whatever the service requires of you, yes there is personal preference but it always in the best interest of hte service!

Hope this is of help

PM me if you want any more info not printable on this site!

Keep your fingers crossed and good luck.:ok:

[Si Clik]

Advice above is all correct.

Just sit back and wait for the letter, with any luck it will be in the positive.

As I keep saying though, why does everyone leave it so late?

[airborne_artist]

In the late 70s the RN had 5 intakes of SL aircrew a year and it was common for one would-be ETP to join each course at/just before EFTS, but mine had two. I think one went onto SHAR, I know that the other stayed rotary.

Pielander - the best pilot from my course had been a barrister, and joined at age 25. He went straight onto the Harrier route via the RAF FJ channel. Arkroyal, who frequents this board, was also >25. He had a lot of experience in charge of big vehicles - he'd been a Routemaster driver with London Buses!

[Mikehegland]

Good points from Dancing bear with one exception.

You can change from Observer to Pilot. One Observer has just completed his SHAR training and a certain front line Lynx squadron has just seen 2 observers leave to convert to SHAR.

Agreed, it is not the Norm and it is not easy BUT with CVF on the Horizon the RN are desperately worried that they will not be able to fill the ship with pilots or indeed Ship's Officers with any flattop experience. For instance, the 2 guys who have left the Front Line Lynx sqdn are being touted as the future CO, XO, Wings of CVF.

[Dancing Bear]

Mikehegland

Quote "You can change from Observer to Pilot. One Observer has just completed his SHAR training and a certain front line Lynx squadron has just seen 2 observers leave to convert to SHAR"

Whilst I do not know anything about the 2 Lynx guys and will have to do a spot of fishing next week I was aware of the Observer who is now a SHAR pilot. He was a very dissatisfied bag man who was coming to the end of his time and decided to act upon a very badly worded DCI, he had quite a task in achieveing the required result including threatening to walk several times, thenkfully their lordships saw sense as he is/was a very capable Observer who had natural aptitude as a stick monkey and will only enhance the world of the Whingeing SHAR Pilot(only for a bite fella's, relax!!)

"Agreed, it is not the Norm and it is not easy"

I have to say I think that is the understatement of the week, it is almost unheard of, as I say I know not of the 2 Lynx guys but will try and find out. Going back to Pieeaters case I would not say this is anything like sound career advice, "join as an Observer and attempt to be the 2nd (or maybe 4th) Obs int he last 30 years to achieve the impossible"

That is not to say that the Observer's do not have the necessary skills to achieve this, it just seems at Pieeaters junction he needs to hang on in there for the AIB result he wants.

You will let us all know wont you Pieeater?:ok:

[airborne_artist]

I'll second that DB, and add that it's not unheard of for those who have passed for both P and O to be offered Obs first.

[Mikehegland]

Heard today that the age limit is going to be reduced from 26 to 24. Anyone else heard that?

The source was very reliable and senior

[Oggin Aviator]

Just to get the facts straight:
I was aware of the Observer who is now a SHAR pilot. He was a very dissatisfied bag man who was coming to the end of his time and decided to act upon a very badly worded DCI, he had quite a task in achieveing the required result including threatening to walk several times, thenkfully their lordships saw sense as he is/was a very capable Observer
Bagman-Correct
Dissatified-Incorrect, just wanted to be a pilot.
A very capable Observer-very correct, one of the best. Personal recommend from CO NFSF(FW) and CVS Captain.

He would have left to fly commercialy had he not been accepted. A big risk for the Navy to accept him, but they had faith in him and he did very well on course. Now not a SHAR driver but a GR7 driver. And best of luck to him. How do I know this - well he is a good friend who held a sword at my wedding.

Oggin

[Si Clik]

MMMM

News travels fast in these parts.

RN align with RAF?

Well we fly with them in JHC/JFH.

Don't dither join.

:hmm:

[Mikehegland]

Not only was he a quality looker...he is also a top run ashore.



anyway, to return to my previous point. The (dis)appointer is almost touting for Observers to transfer to pilot....in fact, any Observer coming away from a trap with a 6 or above is being offered a place on a 309 course. The FT shop are seriously concerned that we will not be able to man the CVF.

[Oggin Aviator]

Not only was he a quality looker...he is also a top run ashore
agree entirely ...... and a top bloke!

[Mikehegland]

Apart from the night we had a stripper arrive whilst enjoying a ruby on the top floor of the Raj in Weymouth...now that very nearly got very tacky !

[360BakTrak]

Oggin....Why did your friend end up on GR7's? Was he poached by the opposition?!

[amb_211085]

I would have thought because the SHAR is being replaced by the GR7 and 9

[Mikehegland]

Exactly that. The SHAR is no more and all the Navy guys are converting.

[Longstick]

Almost there.............

In fact he chose GR7 during role disposal at Valley and his course mate went SHAR.

Many RN are indeed converting to the GR7 as the migration process continues. They are slowly outnumbering SHAR pilots. This is our future and we have no choice. Tough

[Pielander]

Well, they must be desparate for pilots - they've accepted me subject to medical clearances!:cool:

Thank you to everybody who came back with helpful advice. The reason I went 'fishing' in the first place was that I was expecting to be having another chat with the selection officer once my medical came through, but happily enough, he's pre-empted me!

One thing I didn't mention before was that I had rung the selection officer shortly after AIB and that he mentioned that I 'might be offered observer'. I then mentioned that I 'might just hold out for pilot'. I'm glad I did.

So, hopefully you'll see me flying around in about a year's time. If you do, then please take timely avoiding action.

Thanks again, shipmates! :ok:

Pie

[goffer hopper]

Just thought i'd say congrats on joining the senior service. I was just on the age limit when i went through. it is a long road, around 5 years BRNC to Front line for me but keep the faith and never let things just pass you by!
The age limit is changing but i'm sure you've already heard that from sources more senior than me!
If you do end up going down the MTP road then that is even longer and i have a feeling you may be too old for the training to even start once you have finished SEMC.
Shame you wasted time on a degree really....... you won't need that where you're going!

Good Luck!

GH

[Dancing Bear]

Congratulations pielander, I look forward to meeting you around the training establishments or when you're front line. It is still quite a task you have ahead of you, good luck and always remember your sense of humour, god knows we all need it!!

"If you couldn't take a joke you shouldn't have joined" :ok:

[Paul McKeksdown]

He was a good poler as well, thank f:mad: k!

Got a bit boring flying those things around the sky so he took over and let me read ma' book!!!
Just needed a bit more practice on deck landings :}

Hello Oggin, everythin going good over there!

(Saw your post about pension ;) )

[Arkroyal]

Well done pielander (great handle too!)

Bit late (in fact, too late:D ) into this discussion, but good luck with it.

As airborne_artist said aerlier, I was 25yrs 11mths and 2 weeks old when I zimmered me way up the hill to BRNC.

I was told early on that I wouldn't be considerred for SHAR due to age. I reinforced this decision with a lack of ability.

Had 16 splendid jungly years though, and would swap places with you now, if time travel was possible. Jammy git.

a_a, was the engineer SHAR man on your course the same one who parked said jet in my neighbour's garden in Cattistock, Dorset?

And the barrister? CG?

[airborne_artist]

Arkroyal

Totally off topic, but the previous Ark was the vessel that my old man took his car in on her first commission, I think in 1952 or 53 The car was a 1923 Rolls Royce! I'll try to dig out a pic to post here.

The barrister was indeed CG.

Kevin (I can see his face, but not his surname) was the SHAR AEO from my course. Bob Bateman was the other, to perish very sadly with Marcus MacDonald, also from my course (87) and three others in January of 81.

I'm cheating slightly here as I was on 87 until Sept 79, when I was medically back-coursed to 88. Marcus, Kevin the AEO and Bob B were 87, while CG was 88.

Pielander - check yr PMs

[Oggin Aviator]

Dont read anything into the pension question - just trying to investigate all my options :}

Any idea if Fluff got a job in the end?

Take it easy

Oggin