London City - Traffic Flow

[CaptAirProx]

Thought I could be cheaky and ask you ATC guys/gals to answer a question for me.

When operating into LCY I find it quite disheartning to be told at the last minute that we are no4 etc in the queue and that we will be vectored through the centreline to go round the houses. I don't mind this but having screamed down the descent at max speed to try and keep the sector time as short as possible we then waste fuel going round the houses.

I often hear LATCC telling Heathrow/Gatwick/MAnchester etc inbounds that there will be approx delay and if required reduce speed.

Can't London on 118.82 or Thames tell us this so that we can do the same? I hate asking every time because some controllers audible get agitated.

Today we came in at 245 knots (DHC8) to LAM and were then told a bit later as we passed LAM that we were no4 and we would be vectored south of the centreline etc. We then started to slow down to save fuel and help the situation and told ATC. They shat themselves cos something was screaming up our jacksy probably doing max speed as well. Can you not co-ordinate this b4 or am I barking up the wrong tree? Please help me out cos it only requires a quick movement of the throttles and we save £70 pounds in fuel. Thats another pax ticket onboard!

[Warped Factor]

Capt A,

It is probably due to the fact that different sectors, sitting on different sides of the ops room, are feeding aircraft into the same airport.

Similar situations do happen into the other TMA airports as well. Someone will be given no speed restriction into OCK and then be surprised when on transfer to LHR they're told to hold because BOV and LAM are full.

We could do a lot better here with our own internal co-ordination, IMHO.

WF.

[ 21 December 2001: Message edited by: Warped Factor ]</p>

[Expedite your backtrack!]

One way to solve this situation would be to put on an inbound flow rate into City (similar to the one that seems to be permenantly on in Paris). This has been discussed, and I am sure that Thames Radar would appreciate it as they only have 2 levels and not much room to vector you guys around (some times up to 8 inbounds all pitching up at the same time).

Of course this would delay everyone in the long run.

Another way of solving this problem would be if the airlines stick to their scheduled arrival times. We have limited space at City (both in the air, and on the ground) and in the morning rush the parking slots are given out to enable all 10 (or 12) stands to be occupied, and then further aircraft arriving on a 1 in 1 out basis.

It only takes the BEE IOM flight to be 20 minutes ahead of schedule (as per usual) and the CRX Geneva flight to arrive its usual 15 minutes early etc (and this does happen most mornings) and both us on the ground and Thames in the air suddenly have more traffic than was agreed by the clever company ops/slot allocators. This does invariably cause grid lock.

As for advanced warning that you will be delayed, thats a radar thing, and I would hate to comment being but a mere (thick) tower controller!

[ATCO Two]

Hi Capt AP,

E-mail me to arrange a visit to Thames Radar, (situated at Heathrow Tower - currently!), and/or to discuss this matter. The short answer is that if you arrive at peak times, the days of straight in approaches are nearly over. As Expedite says, Thames have only two levels to play with and this means that a lot of vectoring has to occur, especially when 8 nm spacing is required. There are plans afoot to establish "proper" holding patterns, and your company will be informed in the near future of these and other developments.

[JuicyLucy]

If you are screaming off LAM then you have already saved the fuel by not flying the full STAR - that saving may go if Thames then have to slow and vector you around the (very) small bit of airspace they have. It does tend happen at EGSS - I have been told to keep high speed by London then dumped in the Lorel hold by Essex.

[4g_handicap]

Hi guys,

Just another question about flow control.

I was once inbound and given a hold at the IAF, with the appropriate EAT. I managed to slow down sufficiently to make my ETA exactly the same as EAT(marvels of GPS).

Just after getting my EAT, another airliner behind us in original ETA, was given a EAT 10 mins after us. Our new ETA(same as EAT) was now after the other aircraft's ETA. When ATC discovered that our ETA was later than other aircraft, they promptly swopped us around ie I ended up as number 2 because I had slowed down.

Should I have objected?

PS this obviously did not happen in your part of the world(nor JHB for that matter).

Thanx

4g
<img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Scott Voigt]

4G;

I expect that an objection wouldn't have gotten you anywhere. It is "normally" first come first served. However, you do what you must do to make it the easiest on everyone and yourself to get aircraft in line and on the ground. If not, it goes to hell in a handbasket rather quickly.

Merry Christmas

[Pointer]

It always amases me that atco will put 'faster'ac ahead of us ( yes the f50 again) because of mear numbers at that moment. Many times it works out that because of the speed of the 'fast' ac it needs to reduce eurly in the app fase (or because SOP) and will delay us as a consequence. due to our experience in LCY and the flexebility of the F50 (it'll do anything but go fast in cruise) we can normaly get down and on to stand before the other ac can say "established". (ok a little bravour) and we can park on stand using just one (without a tug)

That brings me to airport congestion due to long a/c /8-400. How about that? I'm not taking a delay due to some-one operating an A/C of exceptional size (for LCY)????

Any comments on this??

EYB could you get in contact with me on above mail???

[eyeinthesky]

Ref Speed control (especially into SS/GW): Of course we will try not to make you do 320 kts into a 20 min hold, but you have to appreciate that the speed control might well be to keep you separated from someone in front or behind you. There is really only one track available through Logan for GW/SS and the level is FL180 from AC to TC. Therefore you have to achieve some sort of stream if you have any hope of getting traffic through there in some order and apart. Consider also that the only stack information we have in AC is: 1) Less than 10 minutes; 2) 10-15 mins; 3) 15-20 mins; 4) EATs over 20 mins. So it is quite possible in the first of these to have 0 or 10 mins delay. How are we to know which it is in the very peaky environment that is GW/SS traffic? We have to make a best guess and separation is ultimately more important than a few kilos of fuel.

Ref LCY inbounds: A similar problem here. Through Tripo the agreed level is FL70, and if the D138 is active there is only room for one aircraft at a time. Therefore speed control is often necessary (especially when a certain Flemish airline insists on sending its traffic from Antwerp, Rotterdam and other places all converging on Logan at the same time. Perhaps they should communicate better to coordinate arrival times). Combine this with the traffic from 3 different directions and sectors, only 3 holding levels within CAS and no direct link between Thames and AC and you don't have much chance for anything different, do you?

[CaptAirProx]

Thanks guys for some helpful and informative answers. Sorry for not responding earlier but work and all that kept me away.

Juicy Lucy, I appreciate we have saved fuel by not doing the full star, but it is just a shame we cannot save further fuel by a little communication between us and you guys on the ground.

I'm just a sad pilot how is glad of a job at the mo and will do my best to save costs for the company, within the safety margins.

I know the TMA is busy and little time to chat but I still think a controller telling us what his plans are and we could then tailor our profile to suit him/her without cause for too much heart ache. But then when is there a perfect day!?

If holds are introduced I think that would be good. I would rather poodle around in the hold at Vmin drag, than fly AWAY from the airfield with a stonking downwind component at full bore (Vmo) to then be vectored back onto the ILS and spend ages fighting the head wind back! Or is this mind over matter!?

Otherwise keep up the good work guys. Still find LCY a great pleasure to operate to.

[Pointer]

eyeinthesky don't you be speaking about our fat woman painter in that voice. we are with excemption to the illuster 'RD'(yes RD i know ...too much honor) THE most flexible going into LCY. plus we don't make the slots...
You need speed ...we give you speed..224kts that is.
you need slow....w'll hover a bit faster than a chopper.
be we hate being discrimminated just because some one higher and "at the time" a little faster is being put ahead just to slow us down at the later stage in the arrival.