So, what's the latest with the 49ers?(Merged).

[amos2]

The 49ers been reemployed, fellas?...or not?

Some one care to inform us?...or not?

[Togalk]

There are NO ex Cathay pilots at Etihad.

[6feetunder]

Gainful employment??

Many are still unemployed and some have left aviation because the likes of Emirates, Virgin and Dragonair won't hire them in spite of being very short of crew.

There are a couple who have found decent jobs but many are stuck with what's left, namely Air Atlanta and European, hardly gainful employment especially for the FOs.

[FlexibleResponse]

Future prospects poisoned by the "poisoned dwarf"?

[411A]

...and it is no different at CX.

Some, apparently uninformed, tried to twist the tail at CX, and paid the price.

You can't fight city hall, and I expect those who tried, fell by the wayside.

Peanuts and all. :uhoh:

Silly boys.:oh:
A lesson for all who 'think' they know better than the airline folks in charge.

[BusyB]

411A,

" apparently uninformed"

doesn't apply to U does it. Completely uninformed is much more accurate.

No point repeating the facts to those that refuse to listen!! but if you'd managed to qualify for CX you'd have been gone long before the 49'ers.

[Wizofoz]

Emirates, Virgin and Dragonair won't hire them in spite of being very short of crew.

Utter C:mad: . As there has been since 9/11, there is a severe over supply of qualified crew, and the above mentioned carriers can pick from a huge number of highly qualified applicants.

This "There are plenty of jobs" delusion was used as a justification for the totaly immoral and ultimatley futile employment ban (which, of course, was dropped like a hot potato when CATHAY pilots jobs were threatened!).

By the way, I have enquired by e-mail on three occastions how the HKAOA intended to honour there pledge to "Support the application" of pilots who refused employment during the ban.

The result has been...silence.

[BusyB]

Wizofoz,
Utter Crap is totally correct concerning your posting. Having spoken personally to the previous DFO of Emirates they have not been considered in the past. I hope that they (Emirates) have grown up. You. I think have shown your ignorance in the past. Perhaps you should check your facts before making comments.

[Wizofoz]

Busy B,

I suggest you re-read my post- It wasn't the suggestion that the 49ers would not be hired, it was the idea that the airlines mentioned rejected them in spite of there being not enough qualified pilots around that I was objecting too.

So aside from your mis-interpretation of what I thought was a pretty clear post, what other facts do you suggest I've got wrong?

[404 Titan]

Wizofoz
This "There are plenty of jobs" delusion was used as a justification for the totaly immoral and ultimatley futile employment ban (which, of course, was dropped like a hot potato when CATHAY pilots jobs were threatened!).
What bullsh*t. No one ever threatened us if we didn’t drop the recruitment ban. Some of us realized that the company was trying to divide the pilot body. Something they had been trying to do for ages. If we were to prevail we had to stop it. A number of us told the AOA committee that the ban was futile and was playing right into the company’s hands of divide and conquer.

[BusyB]

Wizofoz.
Wrong, read what I said. Despite Emirates needing to recruit 49'ers due poor quality DEC's initially, there was pressure not to employ them.

[Wizofoz]

A number of us told the AOA committee that the ban was futile and was playing right into the company’s hands of divide and conquer.

Titan,

Do a search and you'll find that is exactley what I was saying here at the time, and being very "Robustley" rebuked by the HKAOA. But tell me, was it simply co-incidence that the ban was dropped almost as soon as the SARS crisis hit, with it's associated threat to incumbebt CX pilots.

Busy,

You still don't get the thrust of my argument. I have nothing but sympathy for the 49ers. My beef has always been that the HKAOA refused to take any effective action on their behalf , instead lumping the responsibility on less fortunate pilots trying to get a job. During the recruitment ban, the attitude of the HKAOA was "Go work for Emirites instead", as if it was as simple as turning up in Dubai and starting work. As the 49ers found out, it isn't that simple, and a job with a Major Airline is worth a hell of a lot. Denying aspirants that opertunity because of your argument with the company was immoral as well as futile.

[404 Titan]

Wizofoz
Do a search and you'll find that is exactley what I was saying here at the time, and being very "Robustley" rebuked by the HKAOA. But tell me, was it simply co-incidence that the ban was dropped almost as soon as the SARS crisis hit, with it's associated threat to incumbebt CX pilots.
A number of AOA members were telling the committee the same thing. Yes it was coincidence that the ban was dropped at the same time as SARS. Was the pilot body worried about their job security during SARS? You bet we were, just like every other employee of this company. If the company was going to have to down size it was going to affect everyone not just the pilots. Obviously you are speaking from an outside point of view. Let me just clarify it for you because you obviously have some issues with the AOA, the company at no time threatened us with dismissal if we didn’t drop the recruitment ban. The recruitment ban was dropped at the request of the members so we could start some dialog with the company. Whether this was a good move, only time will tell.

[Plastique]

So are HKAOA members still paying 5% union dues for the poor unfortunate 49ers?

[Wizofoz]

Titan,

We are in total argreement. The membership was wise in ending the ban. A shame more of them had not been more vocal so as to prevent it it the first place.

My problems with the AOA are:-

1) They took no action that was likely to be effective in helping the 49ers.

2) They put the onis on prospective joiners to "Do their dirty work" for them.

3) Those that refused to be intimidated have been ostrisised and refused membership to the union.

4) The above only weakens the union, whilst discriminating againts a group that, in my view, took fair-enough action.

5) Stopped the ban when they worked out it was bad for THEM, without regard for the others they had disadvantaged.

As you seem to be a voice of reason within CX, could I suggest it would be appropriate to admit the ban was a bad idea, and lift the membership ban on people who joined under it?

[Abbeville]

What percentage of cockpit crew actually belong to the HKAOA?

[7FF]

Less and less. You wil not get a straight answer especially from the AOA.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Less and less

THAT'S a "straight" answer?

You just have to be an AOA member then.

Abbeville, it's about 50%. I am proud to say that I am amongst the approx. 50% who have not deserted my mates in their time of need.

I find it especially ironic that after 9 years of management persecution of the AOA and it's members, the company finds itself in the position of being obliged (by the courts) to negotiate with them, and is trying to encourage membership.

I sincerely hope you like the housing and rostering deals, 7FF.

[fire wall]

Capt Underpants, I will wager you the rostering deal (for want of a better word.......the AoA signed up for all that the Ghost who walks asked for.....hardly a negotiation) will bite us all on the arse given time........I am still asking myself why you all voted for it....it stinks !

[Plastique]

Soooo, are HKAOA members still paying 5% union dues for the poor unfortunate 49ers?

[spleener]

plastic;
It was 4% last time I bothered to check.

Firewall,
So don't take it then - organise your own x#@%$ COS mate!

The 49ers,
An emotive issue that has brought out the best and worst in people. Part of looking in the mirror in the morning I guess.

AOA,
Well what else ya gonna do. - I don't always agree but at least I get a vote.


Endex.




:zzz:

[Cpt. Underpants]

I believe it's 3% and has been for a while already. FWIW, the money issue seems to have been the motive for a lot of former members quitting and the reason several were expelled.

Why do you ask, Plastique? Thinking of joining?

Firewall - I presume you're not a member. Think on this: For now, anyway, NR and his BoMM are negotiating with the AOA. May I be so bold as to suggest that if you don't like it, change it...but you would have to be a member...

Catch 22

[fire wall]

Spleener, the comment pertains to RP04.....not the COS of which it forms a part. Organising my own !@#$%^& COS as you so eloquently put it is not possible as the motions put foward are passed by virtue of the "MAJORITY" voting for such..........I was not one of the majority. It is possible to be a voting member and disagree with the direction of the comittee......I am not a lemming and I still say it is a crap deal..........mate!

Capt Underpants, I believe the above answers your question.

[spleener]

Firewall,
Sorry, fired from the hip. Assumed you were not an AOA member.

Have to agree with Capt U/pants and the silberfuchs on this one.

Enough industrial ventilation.

Spleener

[fire wall]

Spleener, you just don't get it.
Were I a non AoA member I should not be subject to such a vitriolic response from you.........the fact that I am and you feel the necessity to apologise......maybe I don't get it?
Isn't it about time we stopped the AOA pilot vs non AoA pilot bullsh!t and start some constructive efforts to make this a better job for all.................and the only way to do that is to start by stopping the pathetic name calling ..... we gave that up when we left school mate.

[spleener]

Firewall,
thought I was trigger happy! Relax son, you are absolutely correct of course.
Spleen

[FlexibleResponse]

Were I a non AoA member I should not be subject to such a vitriolic response from you.........the fact that I am and you feel the necessity to apologise......maybe I don't get it?
To be a member requires a level of commitment and support to the other human beings in the community that make up the membership. Those that don't get it may generally be characterized as being solitary individuals who are largely dedicated to themselves.

[Wizofoz]

To be a member requires a level of commitment and support to the other human beings in the community

Refusing to take action that would actually help your sacked members?Telling less fortunate people they can't come and work for Cathay because YOU had a problem with managment? Lying that you would help those that didn't accept employment?

The HKAOA membership would appear to be:-



individuals who are largely dedicated to themselves.

[Five Livers]

To return to the start of this thread: has anyone got any information on what's happening about the 49ers?

[6feetunder]

Perhaps contacting the AOA or even one of the "poor unfortunate 49ers" would get an answer to that question. I don't think you'll get much info here.

[dotcom driver]

Is the offer from NR to be blessed by the AOA ?

[BusyB]

NR hasn't made an offer it was someone else.

[shortly]

Cripes BusyB you are a pain in the big toe. From the company then, my gut feeling is, despite the best efforts of the committee, no. Hope I'm wrong (ok as usual for the pit bulls).

[FlexibleResponse]

"There was movement at the station, for the word had passed around..."

[Cpt. Underpants]

"This letter is confidential and subject to legal privilege"

Keep it in house guys.

[Freehills]

My guess? It will depend on the 49'ers themselves - whether they are willing to take the compromise "cease fire" or not. Hopefully the rest of the membership will take account their (consensus?) views, rather than voting on different agenda.

Of course, doubt 49'ers will all have same view, as they have so many different circumstances now...

[FlexibleResponse]

The only reason that the management would offer a “cease fire” would be to improve a management position in which cracks may be appearing. But properly negotiated, this could play well into the hands of both parties.

[VR-HFX]

Agree with CU, the last thing a potential closure on this issue needs is another 200 opinions..that could at best muster 100 eyes.

[DITW]

Cpt Underpants, that is exactly what the current GC wants. The same one that has just sold out the 49ers and the membership. The same one that shut down a forum similar to this one in order to silence debate. The same one that has probably already agreed to age 60 retirement without consulting the membership.

There is nothing in this 49er deal for the members who have stood by this union for over 3 years in hopes of forging a new relationship with CX management. This deal says loud and clear that nothing has changed. Sorry one thing has changed, they have a new AOA president, one they can dupe.

The details of this “offer” are appalling and if accepted will not bring closure. It will just tell CX management that the membership will swallow anything and it’s business as usual. If I were a 49er I would hope that the membership takes the president to task on this one. I for one will be voting against this because I haven’t stuck it out this long to have me and my colleagues sold out by this president. He has been out maneuvered and out negotiated.

[dotcom driver]

DITW - taking a guess that stands for Dead In The Water.

Well thats what the AOA will be if this insulting offer is accepted, its a sham, a pathetic effort, an attempt to make the issue go away.

Its insulting to the 49ers.
Its insulting to the members who stood resolute by their colleagues.
Its insulting to those members who stood by their union in the hope of achieving some career security.

Accept this deal and its a 3 month contract for one and all.

[Truth Seekers Int'nl]

,,,,,,,,,,,,,as was the '89 pilots dispute....................this issue will never be resolved.......ever........so get used to it and get on with life.

[7FF]

dotcom driver posted:
Accept this deal and its a 3 month contract for one and all.

Effectively we all have a 3 month contract.
Heads in the sand again?

:cool:

[Oasis]

I, for one, thought the 49er were toast the moment they were sacked, unless the airline was grounded by the pilots the day after.

For the Swire boys to change their minds and offer this solution must have taken a lot, imho.
Some may or may not want to come back, but if they do, they will hopefully be given a fair shot at getting back in.
There are obvious trust issues between both sides, and this would be a great opportunity to settle this once and for all.
I really hope the aoa takes the deal. (as this was the 2nd time this was offered?)
It just may be the last chance to settle this.

[DITW]

This isn't a "get back in" offer. It is a new joiner Freighter FO job, the only chance at an early command is because those guys have a lot of experience. It has nothing to do with the fact that they once worked for CX.

All this deal says to me is that the company is trying to get out of this for virtually nothing. Since it doesn't include removing the paragraph in the COS that allowed them to do this unprofessional, unethical and immoral deed in the first place it means they have will be happy to do it again and they can't be trusted. Niether can the current AOA president by the way. I'm glad I'm not a 49er on his watch.

[wagga wagga wanderer]

This news doesn’t appear to have featured on the AOA’s website or to have been made available to the members.

“Cathay Pacific’s latest appeal has been dismissed by the Australian Court. They (CX) have also been ordered to pay the 49ers costs."

This means that the substantive issues will be dealt with by the courts
At the same time as the jurisdictional issues.
This appears to be the final
Step in Cathay Pacific’s efforts to try to stop the true story being told in open court.

The same day this was announced, Cathay came up with their derisory offer for the 49ers.

The Star Chamber members seem set to have their day in court, in Australia.

Nothing short of a respectable deal for the 49ers will stop this reaching its inevitable conclusion in the Australian courts, I suspect

[shortly]

WWW I noticed you did not put a date on the news that the appeal had been dismissed or provide a web reference. Could you please? I would like very much to read that article/s.

IMHO, winning or losing the court cases won't hurt CX much or really help the industrial situation here at CX. Sure it may, perhaps, sort of exonerate some of the 49ers. I do not believe that they were picked at random, I do believe that most of them had 'issues' with/against CX which had been documented on their P files and this had been advised to them. Maybe CX should stop being Mr nice guy and start producing some of these 'letters' in court to show why they had lost confidence in those individuals. But that would go against Swires long held policy of keeping dirty linen in their own laundry basket.

[cadence]

The AOA has chosen not to share with the membership the results in Australia. Funny that, not sharing a significant development in a legal action with the very people that are paying the bills. Who's side are these guys on?

[wagga wagga wanderer]

Hi Shortly,
Sorry can't provide a weblink. I was forwarded an email by a 49er advising the result of the appeal . The result seems to have emerged the day before the deal was offered. I suggest calling the AOA office for confirmation.
We all have our opinions on the 49ers and and I'm not going to get into it here. I do however wish nothing but the best deal available for them and I think MG has come up far short of the mark. I feel the decision should be taken by the 49ers and not the membership. I will be voting against the deal.

WWW

[shortly]

W3. I completely repect your position and opinion. Mine is a little different. Best regards. I have done a few searches and read a few papers on-line, can find diddley squat. MG is at least trying to save the AOA, sad for them but the 49ers were history from that dreadful day. Come back and join us guys, swallow your pride, we will all think the more of you.

[6feetunder]

shortly,

What do you care if MG saves the AOA? You aren't a member. But you'll gladly take any improvements they manage to get for ya...

It will be pretty hard for him to save it when he's the one selling it out.

[shortly]

6feetunder. You hit the nail firmly on its top. In all my years as a member of the AOA they did nothing for me other than scorn any advice I was stupid enough to give them. I will take my chances with 'market forces' from now till the end of my working life. Profit is a good motivator for management and I feel some improvements to my COS on the way with nothing contributed to them by the AOA.

[6feetunder]

In all your years as a member, hmm. When did you quit?

[shortly]

The same day I was advised by the Union paid secretary that I was naive and to mind my own business and let the committee get on with running the AOA. Many things I am but naive is not one of them. Back to the post.

[DITW]

Dodged that one rather nicely...

[VR-HFX]

Shortly

I couldn't agree more but will certainly try.

I believe Dr Findlay's Casebook is worthy of review in this whole sorry mess.

I would like a job where people paid me to insult their intelligence.

[shortly]

HFX, at this very sad time in asia it seems remiss of me but nonetheless compliments of the season to you.

[6feetunder]

I agree shortly, JF is well beyond his sell by date. I personally think he has a lot to do with the current low membership numbers. You aren’t the only one who has him at the top of their list of reasons for leaving.

I am curious though, where did you gain all your industrial relations and negotiating experience? I mean to disregard advice from you, they must be really stupid. Maybe you could have saved us all a lot of trouble, heartache, and money and dare I say it a few jobs. What exactly was it you tried to pass on?

[FlexibleResponse]

Thanks for the update wagga wagga wanderer.

As we suspected, it would indeed appear that cracks are forming in the management’s position.

The swine boys never give anything away for nothing.

[Slapshot]

" I do not believe that they were picked at random, I do believe that most of them had 'issues' with/against CX which had been documented on their P files and this had been advised to them. Maybe CX should stop being Mr nice guy and start producing some of these 'letters' in court to show why they had lost confidence in those individuals."

While I can not speak for all the "49" I take exception to your characterization
in one instance.

One Gentleman who works with me now is a "49er". He had just completed an upgrade from 2nd Officer to 1st Officer. After being given the "handshake" and "well-done" he went on a well deserved leave. While on leave he was send an air couriered package informing him of his termination.

If he had "issues" as you allude, why would the company promote and congratulate him? If his personnel file contained items which warranted his dismissal why would they expend the time, effort, and energy upgrading this individual and then informing him of a "job well done"...

What could he have done between receiving the upgrade and going on vacation that warranted a dismissal while on leave?

I sorry, your justification of the company's actions is assinine.

[shortly]

Goodness me but I love a rational response, I also feel that some of the 49ers were great guys and ostensibly 'company men'. You accurately quoted my 'asinine' support of the actions of the company and then selectively rant over 1 person. He would have been one of the first offered his job back if not for the actions of the pit-bulls in the disassociation. Where is he now? In a good job I hope. The myopic prejudices of a few destroyed any hope for compromise those years ago and will do again this time. The need for revenge in these few is directly against the company and would hurt all of us, take for example FR who calls Swire - Swine management. I actually feel that the best result would be to let the court cases take their natural course. Even results which find in favour of the 49ers will only tickle the company not hurt it. Even if changes have to be made to OS COS then they will of course be made in the companys favour not ours. Winning battles and losing wars is not a good strategy.

[BusyB]

As if the AOA stopped CX giving guys their jobs back! The only people who could give their jobs back were those who took them away unfairly. You can blame the AOA for lots of things but there was, and is, only one side that has the power to sack or employ so lets put that blame squarely where it belongs.

[Slapshot]

"You accurately quoted my 'asinine' support of the actions of the company and then selectively rant over 1 person."

You have un-selectively slandered a whole group of people with the broadest brush possible. I pointed out one case in which you were unabashedly incorrect. I would assume there are others. You admit- "...that some of the 49ers were great guys and ostensibly 'company men'" and yet you say "that most of them had 'issues' with/against CX which had been documented on their P files".

I have given you one example of wrongful termination. There are others. You as much as admit to the same thing.

It is my hope that they will be proven in a Court of Law. These Gentleman deserve their day in Court so that the actions of CX Management will see the light of day.

[shortly]

I assume you mean 'randomly', which is of course incorrect but no matter. At the least we agree that the court cases not being stopped and reaching their natural conclusion is a way to end this thing. And BusyB, there were offers made to re-employ the 49ers, with conditions, these offers were rejected by the union.

[7FF]

Shortly posted:
And BusyB, there were offers made to re-employ the 49ers, with conditions, these offers were rejected by the union.

Are you able to confirm that there were offers made by the company.....are you better advised than the general membership?
Because as far as I am aware, If it were true, then the decision must have been made by the GC and maybe the 49 ers themselves to reject the 'offer' without informing the membership.
Worse still not allowing the members to vote on such an important issue. Maybe the GC wanted to fight the company anyway, without regard for the consequences. Which imho has happened.

[BusyB]

At the risk of rehashing previous threads I would point out CX has always presented offers direct to the pilot force, either through the post or in mailboxes, when the AOA did not agree with them.

The supposed "offer" was never presented to the pilot force by CX and that tells me it didn't exist.

[Hangin' on]

If CX has such compelling evidence of wrongdoing by these guys, then wouldn't it be to the companys' advantage to show it in open court, rather than fight a series of rearguard actions to prevent the courts in other jurisdictions hearing the cases at all? Ockhams razor seems to apply.....:suspect:

[shortly]

I agree H, but it has never been company policy to hang the dirty washing out for all to see. It might come to that and I for one hope that it does. But I doubt it. The company, for whatever reason, want to appease the AOA, to whom, the AOA that is, in the 49er days Hanlons razor was more the norm.

[Harbour Flyer]

Truth Seekers Int'nl :


Not so many posts from you these days, thankfully.

Still enjoying it all no doubt, especially as you are probably now actually flying and your fellow crew members are not so interested in how and when you joined.

Perhaps you should look back at some of your earlier posts, just to remind yourself how you sounded. Try 21.11.02 for starters..........

HKAOA still going, thanks very much.