Risk Vs Reward

[stewpot007]

I have been on this forum for some, time undertaken a massive amount of research and have finally decided the self sponsored route in terms of risk is just too great.

I was willing to sell my flat and use the equity built up to fund the training, however: -

If I drop £35-45k modular – will I ever get that lump sum amount back, probably not, it would take my whole working life to save that amount again, even on a captains salary it would take forever, property has peaked may not happen again for a long time.

I will earn less than I earn now probably for 3-5 years (i.e. under £30k)

It could take a long time to land an Airline Position although now in my opinion is the best time to commence training.

I have been trying to understand if I really would like to fly an airliner and the only way I can get close has been to go and take some flights as a passenger, NYC, Vegas, Cyprus in the last 6 months – to be honest I have felt like crap after each flight, swollen body, gas, nose burn from Air Con – maybe its different on the deck.

You may also need to pay for a TR

Maybe I am just doom and gloom, but the reality is if you have the cash you can do the training. The best way to go for a 27 year old is straight to CTC Wings, ok you’ll be on £14k for the next 5 years but the risk vs reward graph looks a lot better. I might even have a cheeky go at that, depends on the air con burn from my next holiday flight.

S
:ok:

[scroggs]

If you can't cope with air conditioning, you're unlikely to cope with flying for a living! And no, there is no difference to the atmosphere on the flight deck (bit more smelly occasionally!).

Scroggs

[B727-200]

Stewpot,

Check your PM's.

Cheers,

B727 - 200

[willby]

I have been trying to understand if I really want to fly
Stew if you really wanted to fly you would be passionate about it and would'nt have to understand.
Good luck.
Willby

[Frank Poncherello]

The risk is not making it to a decent jet job, and having to pay back £500 a month for ten years.

The reward is the best office in the world, decent pay, wierd hours, and not forgeting the lovely ladies (or men if that floats yer boat)

:yuk:

If you believe you can make it to take the prize, then you will convince yourself the risk is not as big as it seems,.......

Frank

[scameron77]

I think the airline industry is like every industry now, no champagne openings and amazing playboy lifestyles, just graft with a pretty nice view, a uniform that impresses some women and fills others with rage because of the reputation, the bonus of duty free goods, not to mention the odd mini bottle from the trolley and a pretty nice company vehicle.

I'm personally doing it because I want to a job that’s tactile and not pushing numbers round a spreadsheet. A job where I have to keep myself pretty fit and in good working order and also have to test myself at regular intervals throughout my career to keep me on top of things. Also the travel, opportunities and is it un-PC to say the glamour of it and the salary, I don't know. Also because I like being up high, having a pretty responsible job, and the thrill of flying and the adrenaline injection.

However it seems to be a regular occurrence on here that if anyone wants to fly and doesn't state that they want to do it because they have a passion for it since an early age, dream about it every night etc. then folk get their backs up. Everyone needs to chill out a little, for a lot of people it will be a calculated business decision to become a pilot, for others it will be following the old adage "do a job that’s your hobby and you'll never work another day in your life".

Whatever it is, for me it’s not about the individual motivation behind becoming a pilot that important. Its about your work ethic, the skill you attain and primarily if you have the balls to do it and not talk about doing it, despite the risks of not walking straight into a job and the significant financial burden you then shoulder.

Gone on another rant on here and for that I apologise, just sometimes I get the rage reading some comments such as "if you really wanted to fly you would be passionate about it and wouldn't have to understand"

Stewart, we've spoken quite a bit on PM, I hope you decide what’s best for you mate, just do what makes sense, “quality of life” in one side of the scales and “earning potential” in the other, what floats your boat more? I think that going to be the issue for you now certainly in the next 10 years because they should be your best according to popular thought.

[EGBKFLYER]

Scameron77 - exactly mate.

However, given that getting into a professional flying career is a little more oddball and subject to lots of setbacks, some of which may cost a lot, having a passion for it could help to keep you going where others give up. I don't think being passionate about any job and having a realistic picture of what it means to do it are mutually exclusive...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The risk reward ratio on professional flying is all to cock.

£60,000 just to get to the starting line, then getting a job is a lottery. It will probably involve moving a long way from home and then doing very unsocial hours. You'll rarely see a free weekend or public holiday and you'll be doing shift work in a cramped and not too healthy environment.

After a few years your airline will either go bust, close your base or maybe you'll be free to move to a better employer with better prospects. So you move again, risk failing a whole load of new training and start at the bottom of another seniority list. If you manage to make a go of this new company then in time you may be able to apply for a promotion.

If you get it then its back to being at the bottom of another seniority list and probably you'll have to move back across the other side of the country again. By now you'll be taking medicals every year or every 6 months that could at the stroke of a pen remove your livelihood. Not to mention the sim check every 6 months which has the same potential.

By now you have got used to a pretty good pay packet and think your career is sorted. Whallop, Sept 11th happens and you are out on the street begging some airline you'd never heard of before to let you be a second officer for them on their exciting night freight operation based in Shetland for less than the average working wage.

The view is nice but it won't be long before you barely glance up from the paper/plog/manual to note the sunset lit Alps sliding past your window.

As wannabes you may be suprised by just how many pilots on the line lament their decisions to enter the profession and swear that their kids never will.

Personally and on balance - I love it. Nevertheless, its not a career to be embarked on lightly in the belief that boundless enthusiasm at the start will carry you through 40 years of grueling career.

It might not.

Cheers

WWW

[stewpot007]

Firstly, Thanks for the comments there are some good people on here.

Scameron77, appreciate that buddy.

willby,
I have been flying microlights for a couple of years, real fun flying, i am trying to understand the transition from from 1500' to 35,000', the costs, the reality etc etc, i know i like flying VFR, as people say gotta go in with the eyes open.

I am going for the ctc wings scheme as in my opinion it represents the least risk and have to say everyone under & including 30 should give it a go before considering Self-Funding.

Even if you self-fund you'll be probably end up applying to the CTC Atp scheme (hold pool) once you have your fATPL anyway as thats the way its going, unless you hit jackpot and get an interview direct.

This whole training/money/job thing is very difficult to get your head round, once you think you have the righyt decision, something always comes along and installs doubt in your mind.

My Advice on Training in order of least risk Vs reward with a view to getting in the RHS - : -

1. Any Sponsership Scheme (i.e. FlyBe) (RISK = LOW)
1. CTC Wings (if 30 or under) (RISK = LOW)
2. Pay As you Go Modular (will take a while) (RISK = Low/Medium)
3. Full time Modular (upto CPL in USA) (RISK = Medium)
4. Full time Integrated (RISK = HIGH)

And if you buy a Type Rating without a job offer at the end then you have just doubled your risk, i.e Stapleford Course










:8

[kilobravo]

Jeeeeeeeezzzzzzz WWWman

I've been up since 05.00 this morning studying flight planning. I am all full of hope towards the future, excited about ILS approaches, flying at night etc, telling myself that all these early mornings will be worth it once the ATPl's are outta da way.
I then log on to PPrune, as a way to relax for a few mins. before starting my day's work and I read your all soooooo depressing post. Cheers, it's Monday and now I'm depressed.:{
Should I try for work in ops as a back up plan???:E

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well kilobravo - trust me when I say that the novelty of flying an ILS even at night will very rapidly wear off.

Being an airline pilot will cause you to have often an unstable job that requires you to move around and to work very antisocial hours which are largely incompatible with sustaining regular leisure patterns and family life. Might seem exciting when you are in your early 20's but your perspective will change.

Best you are aware of this side of the coin beforehand. Even if it does depress you.


Cheers

WWW

ps Still the best job in the world at least once a week. ;)

[Bluejet]

In a way I agree with WWW, but in another I don't. A good camparison is Christmas......Christmas is great, when you are young its massively exciting, can't sleep, fantastic time...get a bit older, still good fun, out with mates on Christmas eve, massively drunk, say in bed till 2pm get up, eat huge dinner sleep till 8 watch telly...excellent!! Then all of a sudden...boring, cannot be bothered to even put tree up, cards piled up on cofee table and not hung up, shopping for pressies pain in the proverbial.......then one day.....little munchkin baby person arrives, put tree up, put lights on, watch as munchikinn nearly falls over, eyes like dinner plates staring at tree, completely in awe...so you turn round look at tree and suddenly....hey, it is pretty special, does look good, feels good to playing with munchkin...Christmas great again.

Flying is same,it is all a matter of perspective, you have to raise your eyes from your plogs and look out the window with those fresh munchkin eyes. London at night with a clear sky...FANTASTIC. Views over the Alps shrouded in mist at 8am ...UNBVELIEVABLE, seeing the Eiffel tower over Paris with fireworks going off....GREAT. Coupled with the confidence of experience and the job is brilliant...we just forget/cannotsee the good bits after a while. All the worries of being a pilot are the same as any other job, the difference is at the end of the day, almost all other jobs are in themselves s**t, being a pilot isn't.

Saying that....still a risky prospect, don;t go there unless you have the bottle, but better to be sat on you verandah at 70 looking at the sky saying I tried and failed, than be sat there watching the vapour trails wishing you had given it is shot.

Thats me and my bikes outside.

[flighttime2.0]

A few more posts from wee weasley welshman and the likes of me will be guaranteed a job in the future as there won't be a pilot let training out there .
To all those guy's that have been following this forum and are now wondering ! gee have I made the biggest mistake of my life getting that loan or spending that hard earned cash ? well im close to being in the position of applying for job's most of the training is now complete , don't know if ill get one but I do know one thing , If I was to turn back the time id spend all that money and do all that study and training all over again .
I love flying so much and have met so many nice people along the way that I consider it all so worth while even with all the knock backs along the way and even If I have to go back to that job that I never liked in the first placeat the end of the day . So my advise is be passionate and battle on to achive that cpl you have always wanted .. flighttime2.0

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Reality bites.

So far you've had the fun and experience of spending circa £60k on a dream. Glad you enjoyed it. The next 40 years are the tough ones.

Good luck,

WWW

[Scottie]

They are tough - no doubt about it. Put it into perspective though. If you want an enjoyable job that pays big bucks there are downsides too.

In addition any job these days that pays anything close to what I'm on involves long unsociable hours. Ask my partner who earns the same as me in a deskjob, who regularly leaves the office at 7pm and goes in on a Saturday to finish her weeks work.

Best post on this thread is scameron77's. Sums it up well.

But then climbing out of Linate at 6am with the morning sun on the Alps is a memory that will stay with me forever and I'm sure the view of an excel spreadsheet will stay with my partner forever but not for the same reasons!!!!! :}

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

What we don't hear here though are the voices of those that spent the £60,000 but never did get a jet job. Its all well and good us clucking about how nice the sunrise bathed Alps look as we barrel home in a Scruggs WonderJet MkII with a harem of attractive young things brewing us tea and medals down the back.

But what about the poor sprat stuck as an instructor with a massive loan to repay or who is out of currency on his IR out of ideas and out of luck? He or she probably no longer bothers these boards as the sight of so many keen young things with their pockets on fire fills them with a mild sense of despair, dread and sickness.

As it happens this week sees the last remaining chum from the golden summer of '99 (PPL instructing) secure a jet job. It may have taken 5 years but eventually everybody who did take the ATPL plunge in 1998 did make it to a jet. Which is heartening. So I have no reason particularly to be down on the prospects of the average Wannabe.

Nonetheless I do get a bit worried from time to time that the forum can resemble a castle in the sky built on the hopes and dreams of people who have not much idea how the industry is or the life a Pilot has to lead. It very much isn't Cath Me If You Can anymore is it??

Cheers

WWW

[scameron77]

"There were these two little mice in a bucket of milk, one gave up right away and drowned, the other kept on paddling away and eventually he churned the milk into butter and walked out." That’s in Catch Me If you Can as well :)

To be honest I've found out some invaluable info on PPRuNe, but every so often I have to remind myself that there are a lot of "tire-kickers", people who'll never take the plunge but offer their opinions as if they are gospel truth.

I've only seen a few posts on this thread however I don't fully agree with. WWW is 100% right when he says you get jaded over time, tell me any job that got a degree of repetitiveness in it and that doesn't happen. Also rosters, working unsocial hours, Stand-by, really early starts or really late finishes, 1 weekend off in 4 during peak times and days off when all your mates are doing 9 to 5. But that’s the key . . . when your mates are doing the 9 to 5, YOU are not, not sitting in front of a desk, not moving numbers from A to B, not attending countless meetings that achieve nothing other than for the sake of meetings, Not battling with rush hour traffic where a 20 minute drive takes an hour and an hour back every day, Gay office politics, photocopiers and stationary orders . . . yuk yuk yuk!

I decided recently I was going to take the plunge and I start training in LA after Christmas, pending my medical at Gatwick on Monday afternoon. It took a lot of soul searching and the knowledge for the first time in my life, if I failed any exam or got pissed off half way through I'd have paid out a sizable number of g's. But I'm doing it and not talking about it as so many others do.

Stewart, have you made a decision mate?

[stewpot007]

Scam,

Yes mate, I have......I am half way through completing the next stage of CTC, just got to fax the Q&A back and wait and see.

If I get through that then I’ll take the next stage on 100%.

I would rather do CTC and have my money in the back pocket, rent a flat etc etc. This will compensate for the £14k salary or whatever it is whilst the airline pays off your loan/bond thingy.

Additionally you can pay the loan off earlier to increase your monthly wage, so that would be an option..

All I am trying to do is minimise risk.
If all this fails then my next option would be to go full time at NAC for £25k, live like a dog for a year on £5k in the US - IR in uk though which is included at this price.

I could just about handle a £25k hit maybe £30k top whack any more than that and it becomes stupid.

I would never touch a loan for so much either (only under CTC with 95% chance of Airline Placement), its good times at the moment but if interest rates go up.... trouble. Plus it could be a problem getting another mortgage with £60k (integrated) or £45k (modular) over your head.

Again in order of least risk

1. CTC
2. Any Other sponsorship
3. Self-Fund Modular (USA)
4. Modular
5. Integrated

Stewpot007

[scroggs]

For all of you who are still looking at aviation through rose-tinted glasses, read this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=120500).

Actually, you should have read it anyway, because you all have read The Archive Thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131649), which is 'stickied' at the top of the page, haven't you? :hmm:

It's a fact that the vast majority of airline flying bears little resemblance to the public perception of the job. You are unlikely to be one of the lucky few who gets to a company where life is considered to be much like it was 'in the old days', where your type rating is paid for, your hours are sensibly limited, your days off are sacrosanct and plentiful, and your pay represents the high respect in which you are held by the company.

You are much more likely, should your 60+k investment result in a job, to be working for a company that demands a further 20k for your type rating, pays you less than a McDonalds server, bonds you for years (and makes you pay for any recurrent training in the meantime), screws you from a*sehole to breakfast, and generally treats you as scum. That, whether you like it or not, is the truth of many of the employers out there - the ones who target gullible people (like wannabes) to work for them.

If you consider your 60k as reasonable payment for an 18 month holiday having fun doing something you always wanted to do (and will be paying off for years), then great! If, on the other hand, you approach the process of becoming an airline pilot in a businesslike fashion, balancing the guaranteed spending of lots of money against the considerable risk of either not getting a job, or, if you do, not earning enough to make it worthwhile, you should be asking yourself very serious qustions about your sanity!

There will always be those who have been seduced by the 'romance' of the machinery we operate, and who will have the bloody-mindedness to spend whatever it takes to get into the flight deck. There will also be those few who, as in music and acting and similarly dodgy trades, will have the talent and determination to rise far enough through the system to earn a good living. But the majority of pilots entering the profession now will, I fear, never reach the equivalent heights of today's BA 747 Captain, and will instead be trapped in the kind of nightmare represented by Ryanair and the like, where your debt to the company will be kept at a level where you can't leave, in that you can't earn enough (no matter how illegally hard you work) to reduce the debt.

Am I overstating the case? I hope so, but that's the way it seems to be going. Whatever the future really holds I can't say. I would hope that our unions and employment law will stay ahead of the Ryanairs of this world, but I have my doubts. I certainly wouldn't advise my children to enter this field! But, while you guys are determined to throw your money at the possibility of getting a good life from flying, I'll continue to help where I can.

I wish you all the very best of luck!

Scroggs

[PrecisionLandings]

Hi guys i have just read the contents of this post and it has been very helpful its pulled my rose tinted specticals off and help me to see the real picture. I am 19 and my ambition in life is to be a commercial pilot. At the age of 16 I started saving for a PPL course in the states at the age of 18 i actually got to go and do the course at OFT in orlando. Last year i was doing a university degree i have now quit my degree and I have got a job in flight operations. From here i intend to start my uphill battle to become a pilot. Mind i am not one of these people that if i don't fly for a major airline its not worth it. if i am flying i will be happy with that yes i am aware that like every other job it will get repetitive and mundane but such is life. I enjoy flying theres nothing i enjoy more so i think thats a great start but enjoying and being enthusastic and having determination will not get me there alone.

Thanks for your help guys

PL