ATC Radio Scanners and all that [Archive]

sss

10th Nov 2004, 21:21

DanL just out of interest, having read the ofcom section of the thread, how have you come to the conclusion

it isnt illegal to listen to the airband radio

from the ofcom website

Question: Isn't it all right to listen as long as I don't pass on what I hear?

Answer: No, using radio equipment to listen in, except as provided by section 5(1)(b) of the WT Act, is an offence, regardless of whether the information is passed on.

PPRuNe Radar

10th Nov 2004, 22:26

Dan L,

We've been over this a lot in the last couple of days. It IS illegal. The fact that no one bothers about it is irrelevant to your statement.

If you practice discretion then it will continue to be ignored probably, it's not a big deal, but the law still stands. Bear in mind that a schoolboy doesn't set the laws of the land or judge on what is and isn't legal. That's down to the authorities, such as OFCOM (you've been given the links already several times). Readers should take their view as the correct one, not your flawed assertions.

BTW, I'd estimate that 90+% of drivers break the motorway speed limit. Very few are arrested or stopped from doing so. Must be legal then ??

sss

10th Nov 2004, 22:28

thanks for the quick and cheeky reply, however back to the legislation, how have you come to the conclusion that its not illegal.

Gonzo

11th Nov 2004, 00:28

Maybe this should be a new 'sticky'....

It is illegal to listen to the airband, but UK authorities tend to turn a blind eye.......

Snigs

11th Nov 2004, 06:28

So, is it illegal even if you hold an RT license? :E :suspect:

BOAC

11th Nov 2004, 06:41

All those who require a definitive answer should read this (http://www.freqofnature.com/scanninglaws_uk.html), which although being suitably confusing:D does offer an email link if you wish clarification.
Edited to include this link (http://www.ofcom.org.uk/codes_guidelines/radio_comms/enforcement/ofw156?a=87101) which quotes Section 5(1)(b) of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949

which

"makes it an offence if a person "otherwise than under the authority of a designated person", either:

"(i) uses any wireless telegraphy apparatus with intent to obtain information as to the contents, sender or addressee of any message whether sent by means of wireless telegraphy or not, of which neither the person using the apparatus nor a person on whose behalf he is acting is an intended recipient"
This means that it is illegal to listen to anything other than general reception transmissions unless you are either a licensed user of the frequencies in question or have been specifically authorised to do so by a designated person. A designated person means:

a. the Secretary of State;
b. the Commissioners of Customs and Excise; or
c. any other person designated for the purpose by regulations made by the Secretary of State.

or:..."

a further email link is available on that site.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

11th Nov 2004, 07:49

Snigs - YES!!! Licence holders are only entitled to use the radio equipment for which they are authorised whilst in the course of carrying out their duties. For example, an airline pilot is authorised to use radio whilst he is flying and carrying out his duties, but he is NOT entitled to go home and listen to the air bands. The same applies to air traffic controllers. As for why scanner users are not prosecuted it's all down to money and the disgusting state of this country. There used to be effective policing of the airwaves but, alas, no longer.

Dan L - for someone who claims to be a "wannabe pilot" you need to accept facts and to understand that on here there are many professional people who know what they are talking about. When/if the time comes for any airline interview... if those on the other side of the desk saw your postings on here they probably wouldn't invite you into the room!

zed3

11th Nov 2004, 13:25

HEATHROW DIRECTOR ..... as to why scanner users are not prosecuted etc. etc. etc. I can remember , before I worked in ATC back in the sixties one could go to Manchester Airport or Ringway (aaah) and use an air band radio on the old viewing terraces above the apron IF one had had the radio checked over in an office at the base of the tower ! Nothing really to do with the state of the country , in my opinion . As I remember , it was illegal to listen-in then also .

eal401

11th Nov 2004, 13:50

I guess this must be like growing/using hash. Perfectly legal to buy the component parts, totally illegal to use them.

So, it's illegal to listen to ATC, but OK to buy a radio that allows you to? :rolleyes:

I've visited ATC before, should I have closed my ears? :p

I do hope some of the individuals in the ATC forum are not reflective of the ATC community as a whole. The "if you are interested in our job, p*ss off" attitude is not constructive!

Simtech

11th Nov 2004, 14:17

zed3

Think that happened about the time that airband receivers became widely available (Volstatic - anyone else remember them?). I seem to recall that EMA had a similar policy. Most sets didn't cause any problems but there was a cheapy converter available that you stood next to your medium-wave broadcast receiver. The box down-converted airband sigs to a frequency that could be picked up by the broadcast receiver, but in the process emitted enough RF to present a real hazard to ATC communications. The powers-that-be came down very hard very quickly on the importers.

WHBM

11th Nov 2004, 19:24

Licence holders are only entitled to use the radio equipment for which they are authorised whilst in the course of carrying out their duties.
HD:

Do you have a reference for this as I don't find these words in the regs.

As far as I am concerned my RT licence gives me authority to use a radio on the airband in the manner described here. Has this ever been found to be otherwise ?

And as a recreational PPL I don't have any "duties" anyway !

rej

12th Nov 2004, 10:31

WHBM

If you look on the ATC Issues Forum and look under the 2 Questions thread some kind soul has provided a link to the rule and regs. I'm too much of a computer dinosaur to link it myself!!

Hope it helps.

Rej

airborne_artist

12th Nov 2004, 11:01

If it's so vital that non-licensed users don't overhear ATC frequencies, why not use digitally encripted radio similar to that used by GSM/TETRA (I'm referring to the encryption, not the mobile system itself)?

OK so the answer is cost and compatibility, in which case, why the fuss about people listening to a broadcast on an un-encrypted network, so long as the equipment used by listeners does not degrade the service?

Jerricho

14th Nov 2004, 16:44

I do hope some of the individuals in the ATC forum are not reflective of the ATC community as a whole

Nice sweeping statement there. Care to expand on that. There has been countless threads on the legalities of scanners and listening to ATC frequencies. And if you're referring to certain comments in a thread over there at the moment, perhaps you should go back and read them AGAIN, and have a think about why they have been written.

I draw you to this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=149591) thread. Read the second and third lines. Says it all really. Something like that gets quoted in a paper, or a journalist thinks "Yeah, I've got a spare couple of hours, where's me scanner". And believe me, Halo wouldn't have the luxury of being able to contact them to put them straight (as in this case). Also, some controllers are very easy to recognise over the R/T, and it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to work out who they are.

They say a little information can be a dangerous thing.

eal401

15th Nov 2004, 08:42

It is not a sweeping statement as I very clearly state that I hope SOME individuals are not reflective of the whole.

The individuals in question were unreasonably offensive to what appears to be a reasonable request. I could quote, but I don't particularly want to "name names" nor do I think it is necessary to point them out as it is bloody obvious!

If listening in is so horrendously bad, then make it illegal to buy the means to do so and ban everyone who asks about it here.

Wouldn't we then have a happier world?

I should point out I did not intend to cause offence.

Jerricho

15th Nov 2004, 14:38

If listening in is so horrendously bad, then make it illegal to buy the means to do so and ban everyone who asks about it here.

That whole statement is no where near the basis to form an argument. Is your car limited to 70 mph? Can you download music from the internet using Kazaa? I don't believe you intended to cause offence, however, I don't really think you have objectively look at it from the other side.

Personally, I have not the slightest problem with spotters/enthusiats using a scanner. What get's under some people skins is the whole fact that some of the things that can and will be heard ARE sensitive, or can quite easily be taken out of context. I believe the law states that what is heard shall not be recorded or repeated to anyone. Yet, some of the questions that pop up here just shouldn't be asked, and they stem purely from from something heard over a scanner. That thread I linked above is a prime example. Also the whole "Oh, I heard/saw a go-around at where ever" has been thrashed to death many times. Ever read the next day in a newspaper an event you were involved in, with information that could only have been gained from a scanner in there, that was written about a totally standard procedure, IE a go-around. I have.

I guess the crux of the matter is what's being done with what's being heard. Like this very medium, perception of what is actually being presented can vary from individual, and misunderstandings can occur. Someone who rips on here after hearing an operator declaring a TCAS RA and starts asking quesions is going to be met with a little opposition.

And don't for one minute think I am sitting here with a holier than thou, superiority complex. I'm happy to sit and talk about aviation all day. I love answering questions, as well as asking them. I've still got a lot to learn, and you only really learn by asking questions...........intelligent ones.

jguruz

18th Nov 2004, 19:06

I was wondering if anyone could advise me on a good atc receiver. I am an enthusiast and travel as well, i would like something that would enable me to pick up atc at heathrow and also if possible when travelling, the flight deck. Is it permissable to listen to the exchange between atc and the flight deck during travel?

thanks

PPRuNe Radar

18th Nov 2004, 19:47

Don't think it advises on equipment models, but the legalities, etc, are all covered here :

Listening to LHR ATC (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151544)

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

18th Nov 2004, 20:08

This question has been oft covered on here! The basic fact is that it is illegal to monitor such transmisions. I'm not denying that the equipment is available for purchase but it is as well to know where you stand in law.

Using radio sets on board aircraft is subject to the regulations of the particular airline. Some airlines have live R/T on one of the audio channels on the passenger seats.

BLK 33

18th Nov 2004, 21:05

"ATC receiver "

There was me, thinking NATS had gone belly up:\

eal401

19th Nov 2004, 07:42

Careful, jguruz. There are some on here who will now think you a journo or terrorist! Or just scum.

Sad but true.

BOAC

19th Nov 2004, 10:14

jguruz - in the absence of recs from users here, type 'atc scanner' into Google and you will find an online forum where the merits of various types are discussed.

BALIX

19th Nov 2004, 14:45

First bit of advice is not to get a cheap one - there are a number on the market for around twenty quid. Unfortunately, these simply expand the FM band upto 136 Mhz. Whilst this covers the correct part of the VHF spectrum, airband transmissions are in AM and your tranny will not be sensitive enough to distinguish between frequencies. I had one once that could listen to Prestwick tower (118.15) and approach (120.55) simply by tuning in to a frequency half way between them.

I've now got a proper AM hand held scanner which does the trick quite nicely (Maycom is the make). I think they range from about £60 upwards.

PPRuNe Radar

19th Nov 2004, 16:49

Oh no, BALIX could be listening to me on the RT on his days off ;)

BALIX

19th Nov 2004, 19:26

Actually, I'm listening now to my Watch as I'm on leave. 124.82 is a good frequency as it is transmitted from just up the road so the Galloway controller is loud and clear. It's amazing how different they sound on the RT compared with chit chat in the canteen ;)

Billings

20th Nov 2004, 04:57

Hi Guys,

In relation to this thread, does anyone know what the law in Ireland is regarding this or where I could get information on it?

Thanks in advance!

Paul.

radeng

20th Nov 2004, 17:17

As I recall, it all goes back to the bits in the Radio Regulations that Administrations are required to preserve the secrecy of radio traffic, or words to that effect. The Radio Regulations are international law, and are signed up to by governments like any other international treaty. The requirements date back to when personal telegrams and so on were sent in plain language by morse: these days, it's a convenient weapon for the enforcement agency to have available.

'If any message, the reception of which is not authorised is received, the contents of the message or its existance shall only be revealed to a duly authorised person or a competent legal tribunal'.

As to why not digital, there's a number of reasons. One is the installed base. Another is that digital is either there or its not - but analogue can have a lot of degradation and still manage to get the message over. Similarly, aircraft VHF is AM, not FM, because with FM the weaker signal is suppressed: on AM at least you know its there, and there's a better chance of realising it. Which, I understand, was the original reason for choosing AM for aircraft VHF fighter control in 1939, although it wasn't widely available until about 1941/2. Incidentally, the fact the band is 108 to 136MHz stems from that band having been used originally. After WW2, there were a lot of surplus 4 channel VHF radios available (the American SCR522), and they got fitted in civil aircraft for a while until purpose built equipments with more channels became available. Having said all that, there are moves afoot to bring in digital voice for aircraft control: how it will perform in practice when there's a lot of people trying to talk at once will be interesting. I can see nobody getting through at all, instead of one or two making it.

Still, in modern radio engineering, it's like the quote from Animal Farm, - 'Analogue bad, digital good'.

RomeoTangoFoxtrotMike

22nd Nov 2004, 13:02

If listening in is so horrendously bad, then make it illegal to buy the means to do so and ban everyone who asks about it here.
And deprive my aircraft of a very cheap and effective box 1.5 just because you cannot obey the law as it stands... :hmm:

gingernut

22nd Nov 2004, 13:39

slim_slag

22nd Nov 2004, 13:55

gingernut,

An example of this service is here (http://www.cheaptickets.com/trs/cheaptickets/galileo_flight_tracker/galileo_home.xsl). There was also a free US service which gave information on UK flights which were sent to the FAA in real time. I understand the UK authorities shut that down, probably because they were not getting paid for it rather than any fallacious but oft quoted security reasons. I think it all boils down to a different approach to freedom of information in different countries.

gingernut

22nd Nov 2004, 14:59

thanks for the link, its taking ages to download, so I'll try it later at home.

I have been known to listen to aircraft on my radio, at the same time as watching the arrivals board on Teletext.

Should I get out a bit more, or do you think that I may need help of a professional nature?

foxile

24th Nov 2004, 10:12

Legal issues aside, domestic and international, it appears that to an extent it has found its way onto the net.

www.liveatc.net

Mainly US and South American. No UK airports figure although you can follow activities at Cork should you wish.... ;)

Mmmmm....

Apologies if this is old info

steve181

1st Dec 2004, 07:01

i have a Maycom AR-108 scanner. The transmissions are crystal clear, it picks up the entire aviation band, and most importantly it sells for a really good price.

If listening to aviation scanners is illegal, it's one of the most relaxed laws i've ever heard of!

DX Wombat

2nd Dec 2004, 00:33

RTFM, surely one solution to your problem would be that radios capable of reception on these frequencies could only be purchased on production of a valid licence? If you then held a relevant CAA Licence you would have no problem. I have a Radio Amateur Licence and would love to see this apply to my hobby too. As it stands anybody can puchase a transceiver capable of being used on the Amateur bands without having to provide proof of holding a licence. M3WOM (aka DX W)

ionagh

2nd Dec 2004, 08:18

Your definitive answer is here:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/ra/publication/ra_info/ra169r7.pdf

However, friends at Ofcom inform me that there is no actual 'enforcement' of this. They do not have the manpower to go around and stop you. Therefore the regulation will be applied on a complaints basis.

So provided that 'no one knows what you listened to because you told no one what you overheard' then you are probably in the clear..........

Rest assured that one day it will go digital, but that will take years to get international concensus on the technology to use.

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

2nd Dec 2004, 09:07

<<If listening to aviation scanners is illegal, it's one of the most relaxed laws i've ever heard of!>>

Just think of the millions of speeding motorists and look at the litter alongside our roads - all caused by law-breakers. I agree it's relaxed, but that's the state of the country we live in...

eggc

8th Dec 2004, 20:44

Hi all

I know that scanners are not wise in France / Italy etc etc, but have you ever thought about the UK....

part of a post elsewhere on pprune....

"IF your info came from a scannner, be careful in 'publishing' the information. There has been an extensive thread on another forum about the legality of scanners. If firmly pressed legally, Pprune could not guarantee anonymity for those who do."

Does anyone know if it is the use of scanners or the publishing of info that is in question, as i cant find the thread in question.

sss

8th Dec 2004, 21:01

from the ofcom website

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/codes_guidelines/radio_comms/enforcement/ofw156?a=87101

Question: Isn't it all right to listen as long as I don't pass on what I hear?

Answer: No, using radio equipment to listen in, except as provided by section 5(1)(b) of the WT Act, is an offence, regardless of whether the information is passed on.

Ranger 1

8th Dec 2004, 21:22

Interesting read from the Ofcom link. The old saying was ;If you heard something, you Never,
1. Pass it on. 2. Write it down. 3 Act on it .
Guess a load of Reggies better watch it then :rolleyes:

RUDAS

11th Dec 2004, 10:44

it seems an interesting anomaly that scanners are even sold then,if they are effectively illegal as SSS said???

BOAC

11th Dec 2004, 11:38

Two similar threads merged

Squadgy

11th Dec 2004, 22:28

not sure of the relevance, but there was a scheme mooted several years ago, which was to allow subscribers to follow real time radar traces on their pc, via the internet. I seem to remember that it was aimed at commercial companies interested in tracking flights, and enthusiasts.

I remember this too - It was being developed by NATS actually, and they actually had a website up which IIRC asked those interested to register - I did but never heard anything. When I next checked the site it said that development had been put 'on hold' for technical reasons. Trying to think of what it was called, but can't right now !

Ronaldsway Radar

16th Dec 2004, 10:41

Considering the fact that if you somehow manage to find ANY site broadcasting london or any other UK ATC freq. for that reason, wil automatically be illegal due to the fact it is being broadcast to your net server then to you.
I shudn't get caught up in this but I will!

That is a gd point, if listening to freq's on an airband scanner is illegal why do they sell them. I have been to Ronaldsway- Isle of Man airport many times (my home airport) with my AB Scanner, and pilots, ATCO's, security officers, police and who knows have walked past me. If it is illegal they certainly dont make it clear enough, and if the scanner is a receiver only, it should be legal as if you are just an enthusiast listening, it is just as simple to hear ATC as popping to ur local flying school and taking an intro lesson so you can listen to ATC.
Crazy.
Illegal or legal, it wont stop people buying AB scanners and going ona day trip to manchester aiport to listen to CC_TWR etc..
RR

HEATHROW DIRECTOR

16th Dec 2004, 10:59

RR.. Yes, it is crazy.. but no more crazy than being able to by cars which will do 120mph... and plenty of policemen walk past showrooms where they're on sale.

I wonder why people find it so difficult to understand the law - Thou shalt not do it. Full stop!

eal401

16th Dec 2004, 11:04

I wonder why people find it so difficult to understand the law - Thou shalt not do it. Full stop!
Far worse crimes in the world, but some people have no sense of priority. (No having a go at anyone here BTW!)

Fortunately the police that ignore spotters engaging in their hobby have common sense.

anartificialhorizon

16th Dec 2004, 15:41

Check out the following site

www.futurastudios.com/atc.html

for realtime ATC comms and radar displays and webcams at selected airports around the globe.

Beware though don't let heathrow director catch you!!!

As for listening in, on a list of crimes it probably ranks alongside driving whilst eating or drinking or watching TV without a licence. Really serious.... ;)

BOAC

16th Dec 2004, 16:51

Oh dear! This one seems to go on and on and folks just cannot understand what HD and others are saying.

The question "is it illegal to listen too ATC in the UK on a scanner" has been asked. The answer is YES. References have been given (look back in this thread).

ionagh has summed it up neatly on the previous page.

"Your definitive answer is here:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/arch...nfo/ra169r7.pdf

However, friends at Ofcom inform me that there is no actual 'enforcement' of this. They do not have the manpower to go around and stop you. Therefore the regulation will be applied on a complaints basis.

So provided that 'no one knows what you listened to because you told no one what you overheard' then you are probably in the clear.........."

_________________________________________________

as for 'anartificialhorizon' - to you I would say "follow the guidelines given in this thread". It is not HD you need to worry about - it is the plod if you transgress.

...........and as for watching TV while driving..................

:rolleyes:

PPRuNe Radar

16th Dec 2004, 17:18

Check out the following site www.futurastudios.com/atc.html for realtime ATC comms and radar displays and webcams at selected airports around the globe. Beware though don't let heathrow director catch you!!!

The subtlety is probably lost on you but I expect HD would have absolutely no problems with you listening to the ATC sites which are featured around the globe on that website. Now I wonder why that could be ?? :rolleyes:

Steam dream

18th Sep 2005, 10:14

As alicensed radio amateur, I think that if one hears a communication, they must not act on it. Taking that to stupid reasoning, if you hear on the police band that there is a speed trap, you are not to slow down 'cos you heard it on the radio!!
You must not tell others of the communication either. Dont know where that leaves a mayday!!
For info, I was operating with the Air Training corp on their frequency which is around 430. Mhz, also a downlink for a stellite radio amateur. As priority user I was LEGALLY obliged to tell the American Satellite to close down. ( I did not, I am not that stupid)
Enjoy and do not interfere with the communications.
Anyway in the next few years you will not be able to hear anything as they will all be digitallised to to spectrum shortage.:hmm:

Out Of Trim

21st Sep 2005, 20:06

Whilst respecting the official legalities; It has come to my notice that it is possible to listen to both LHR and LGW on the internet using web based PC controlled scanners on this Website -

Here (http://www.dxtuners.com/servlet/IBMainServlet/?ib_page=1)

It does cost you a small fee - approx $5 per month I think, but works quite well if you don't own your own scanner, although sometimes you have to wait in line to control the frequency to be set.

mocoman

21st Sep 2005, 21:59

Now that link is VERY interesting.

I received an email from the owners of that site a few months ago asking if I would be prepared to host a site for Gatwick and Heathrow ATC RT.

I entered into a long exchange of emails with the owner of the site and pointed out that what he was asking was illegal in the UK and would leave me, as the host, exposed to legal action.

After this exchange, during which I referred him to the OFCOM website and various other sources stating the UK legal position, he agreed that it was, in balance of probability, not a good idea to continue asking me to illegally monitor and re-broadcast restricted communications.

Obviously he has changed his mind and has managed to find a host who doesn't care about the legality or otherwise of their actions.

I wonder if OFCOM will turn a blind-eye to this kind of activity, somehow I doubt it but I'm guessing that no action will occur unless they happen across this site.

Sadly the person to bear the brunt of legal action will be the local host in the UK; not the instigator who is resident in Scandanavia.