branch change

[getmeupthere]

Hello all,

New to this web site and was wondering if there was anyone out there who could offer some advice.

Went to Oasc in feb 04 with my choice of branches being pilot and WSO, I was a raf vr pilot on Emuas having completed about 19 sorties. After three different "selection meetings" and 9 months later I was informed I was a strong candidate but didnt get it due to uncompetative aptitude scores, which for pilot I got 128.

I'm aware due to cut backs the recruiting numbers have been dramatically reduced.

Therefore wrote to them explaining I would like them to consider me as fighter controller and have recently been accepted on to an IOT starting at the beginning of next year.

Was wondering what the policy and chances are of a branch change to pilot/wso when i come out of IOT.

Also would appreciate any information from fighter controllers as to what i can expect after successfully completing IOT.

Any feed back would be much appreciated.

Cheers guys.

[theboywide]

In the current environment I'd say your chances lie somewhere between Bob Hope and No Hope
Sorry fella

[PPRuNeUser0172]

I would be very reluctant to go through IOT as an FC on the off chance that you may be transferred to Pilot afterwards. This is very rare in my experience and is highly unlikely to happen when they are not exactly desparate for Pilots. Guys who get a lot further down the line than UAS are not automatically given another role in the Pilot branch if they are unsuccessful in a particular stream, let alone other branches.

If you are keen on being an FC and are prepared to spend your 6 years or whatever it is they offer you in that role, then go for it. You have to be careful though, in my opinion there would be nothing worse than going through the process of IOT hoping for a branch change and assuming it will happen. You would be much better off pursuing a civvy flying career or reapply at a later date providing you meet the age criteria. It really comes down to one simple choice, do you want to be a Pilot or do you want a career in the RAF?

I know that when I was at IOT there was the opportunity to transfer branches toward the end of the course, not that this ever happened it seemed, but you could be considered. I would put money on the fact that this process has been removed now?? any one from DIOT care to shed any light??

Good luck

[BigGrecian]

First of all congratulations on being selected for FC and good luck on IOT.

If you apply for re-selection following IOT, or even during professional training your chances of being re-selected for Pilot/WSO are minimal.
A pass in Pilot aptitude is no longer good enough due to the competition out there, it now has to be quite high to be selected.
They are only taking approx 30 Navs a year now and again the aptitude scores have to be competitive as well - and think about whether there is a long future in the Nav (WSO) world - (beyone ISTAR platforms!)
If you apply for re-selection you are likely to be offered just your original branch of FC - as has happened in the past to other officers.
Don't apply for re-selection whilst on IOT, wait until you have your commission, and are holding etc.
I am sorry if this is a grim picture, and not the answer you were looking for but just remember - if you don't ask - you'll never know what could have happened! If you want more info on re-selection for Officers look here : RAF Re-branch (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=142766&highlight=reselection)
Good Luck!
BigGrecian

Wow - been a few replies whilst writing this - OACTU (Officer and Aicrew Training Unit - to incoporate Airmen Aircrew initial training who now share No 1 Mess with IOT cadets) has replaced DIOT now as well.

[Mightycrewseven]

Getmeupthere

As your name suggests it sounds like you want to be an aviator. If you want a Commission then FC is for you, however, if you are desperate to become an aviator don't limit your options to pilot/WSO. The RAF are actively recruiting Non Commissioned Aircrew in the role of Weapons System Operator (WSOp) serving as rearcrew on numerous platforms such as Puma, Chinook, Sea King, E3D, Nimrod MR2, Hercules and Tristar.

For further info see:

http://www.rafcareers.com/yourmove/trainforlifencaircrew.cfm

and

http://www.airmenaircrew.freeserve.co.uk/home/frameset.htm

If you have not started IOT it is not too late to think about this option. If you want any questions answering please PM me and I'll see if I can help.

Good luck

M7 :ok:

[Spotting Bad Guys]

One thing you need to consider is that, should elect to apply for re-selection, make the grade and then subsequently fail the training course of your new Branch, OASC are under no obligation to keep you in the RAF. Until you complete your professional training, there are no guarantees!

SBG

[Snakecharmer]

Sanchez... spot on.

If you want to be a pilot above all else, embark on the civil aviation path, keeping the door marked 'RAF' ajar at all times.

If you want to be in the RAF above all else - problem solved.

If you'd rather do something other than what you find yourself doing... go and do that something else! Good luck.

[Pontius Navigator]

Getmeupthere, your chances of becoming a pilot, even from where you are now, is probably better than becoming an FC.

Seriously they still have an horrendous failure rate and most of their intake have aircrew apptitude but not the full medical quals to go with it. You are given basic training before being chopped as a controller. Then you are trained in systems before being chopped from that too. Then you get to do a tour of the air force branch hunting before returning to OASC.

OK, that is the cynical view and is possibly wishful thinking from people who either didn't really want to be FC or find out they don't when they get there.

Rather than go for FC with its high risk of failure, have you thought of admin/supply/ops support? They are much less aptitude based (except ATC) and possibly more relaxed about a branch change later.

[rivetjoint]

If you think about the WSOp route come up with a good reason why after having just convinced them you should be an officer that you no longer want to!

[JessTheDog]

Without trying to seem too cynical, the recruiting process is about meeting predetermined sets of criteria and little else - it can rightly be called a "numbers game" although this is perhaps painting too bleak a picture.

If OASC don't want you as pilot at this time because of your scores, then that is the state of affairs and unfortunate luck. If there is a glimmer of hope of a "back seat" job then by all means go for it using the normal arguments about wanting to be a combat flier etc. If this does not work then accept wholeheartedly the FC slot. A word of warning - don't think (as some may say) that you can rebranch during IOT or during ab-initio training. You can't! There was a time when, if there was slack in the system, you could attempt this, however if you VW (voluntarily withdraw) from training hoping for a rebranch in the current climate (or worse still, fail "tactically") then you will be back into civvie life! The RAF is too small nowadays!

Don't be too dishearted about the prospect of 6 years as a FC. I believe the chop rate is not all that high and that this rumour dates back to the days when failing Weapons aptitude and being streamed Surveillance was seen as being chopped. I don't believe anyone is likely to be offered a PC on commissioning so you will have to work for one after a few annual appraisals along with everyone else. You will gain a far better tactical appreciation of the modern battlespace as an FC than in admin, supply or ops support, and these areas (I believe) are likely to see compulsory redundancies. And, once you have your feet under the desk as an FC and are looking at a PC then you could try again at pilot/nav, once the folly of the current cutbacks are recognised and the redundancy pain has bitten. In all likelihood you will be very competitive at the appropriate time ie. once the cutbacks have been recognised as the insanity there are and the RAF tries to redress the shortfall of aviators.

[Pontius Navigator]

Jessthedog, don't be too sure that FC is now more relaxed. I know someone sold his house before he started the course, then failed control, restreamed surveillance, failed, recoursed, chopped. Lasted until rebranched about 8 months of which about 2 was in limbo.

[getmeupthere]

Thanks for the input guys, seems no one really knows how things work within the service..... That which is policy and "written in stone" so to speak very few people manage to use and alot of it, to much, seems to depend on right time right place.

Having said that im determined to get a commision and was just wondering on this intial offer of 6 years would that likely to be extended or would I be out on my arse six years later looking for a job in civvy street ?

So many questions!

Cheers once again

[Bluejet]

Hmmn long time since I went through exactly what you are doing. I joined in 92, was initially accepted for pilot training, but was then sent a letter informing me that due to cutbacks they could no longer offer me aircrew, if I wanted to still join I could as Admin Sec, but If I didn't want that I had to wait a year and try again, with no guarantees of acceptance.

I elected to join then, and try for branch change. On my IOT there were 3 other guys who had the same offer. 2 of them had told the RAF that it was pilot or nothing and they would wait and try again in a year, the other had done as I had. The 2 that said they would wait were then sent another letter offering them GD/P. It appears the RAF wanted those that had the aptitude and also the determination to be a GD/P and not the determination to accept something else (as I did).


Anyway as luck would have it my first admin posting was to RAF Valley. I had a great time, spent some 50+ hours in the back of hawks, and as I was the Flg trg Wg Adjt I spent all mytime with the CO and Chief Instructor. They both wrote on my behalf specially recommending that I be considered for branch transfer to GD/P. So with the Stn Cdr and the Chief Instructor of the RAF's fast Jet Training School both saying I had what it took, of course you know there could be no other outcome...you're right the RAF said poke off and stay a bluntie you loser (or words to that effect). Every year I applied for branch transfer and every year they said no until I was 29 and then they said 'you are now too old to be a pilot stop bothering us'. So I resigned, borrowed shed loads of dosh, got my commercial licences and now fly 737's for easyjet.

Maybe the above will give you an inkling of how things might work.

Regards and best of luck.

BlueJet
Flt Lt (retd)

[getmeupthere]

Thanks for the input guys, seems no one really knows how things work within the service..... That which is policy and "written in stone" so to speak very few people manage to use and alot of it, to much, seems to depend on right time right place.

Having said that im determined to get a commision and was just wondering on this intial offer of 6 years would that likely to be extended or would I be out on my arse six years later looking for a job in civvy street ?

So many questions!

Cheers once again

[Big Unit Specialist]

Getmeupthere,

Have you considered another option........ the RAF Regt. A fine upstanding bunch who end up in all the interesting places that the aircrew just fly over/inadvertently land in!:E
But seriously it's a good laugh and there are promotion prospects comparative to other branches of the RAF (though we are a Corps don't you know - yes, just like the WABC.....).
I am writing this from sunny ('twas raining yesterday) Baghdad and have also been to (insert any current popular war zone/smelly place) recently and have collected almost enough frequent war miles to get a day off.
The FC branch aren't a bad lot, they can drink and know how to throw a party - 2 years with them at Boulmer almost did for my liver. The chop rates seem to have calmed down but the courses are intense - at least in the minds of the students:}
Go on try the water it's lovely and you can always leave if you don't like it.
There are rare cases of Regt changing branch to aircrew but it's usually the other way round........ not that they arrive with a chip on their shoulder or anything! Tee, hee! Am already wearing body armour (with ridiculously small ceramic plates) and helmet waiting for incoming........
You could always throw your lot in with a private military company here - about $1000-00 a day and all the guns in the world to play with! No experience necessary, the fact you have applied to the RAF would get you hired!!!!

[Yeller_Gait]

One point which nobody so far has mentioned is that as a commissioned FC you do have a good chance of flying, as either weapons or surveillance on the Sentry E3D. There are FC's now at Waddington who have completed not much more than 1 tour before being accepted onto STF and a posting to E3's.

[Pontius Navigator]

Getmeupthere, you seem to say that none of us knows [what we are talking about] of the rules in tablets of stone.

The first thing you need to remember is that Flexibility is the key to air power. Then the general services one, Hurry up and wait, and the final one, more usually applied to self-loading freight, Time to spare go by air.

Then the thing you learn as you start your second tour is Never believe what the poster tells you UNLESS his tourex date is AFTER yours.

Big Unit Specialist, apart from my Son in Law being in the RAF Regt, and daughter too! There have also been RAF Regt cross-overs too.

As a young un you may not recall AN who switched from, I think Fg Off, after one tour to nav training. He was stn cdr at Kinloss I believe and last I heard was an Air Cdre. Could be higher now.

See your PM BUS

[Bunker Mentality]

Getmeupthere,
I am a Fighter Controller and have been for years - and I've never regretted a minute if it (well, not often). Most of the advice so far has been very wise. The chop rates are not too bad compared to what they were but, because the branch has always been short of people, it is offered to many who would really prefer to do something else. Consequently, there are a few youngsters about who feel trapped, having swallowed the recruiters' BS about being able to rebranch later. I think FC is a great job with an excellent future - but only do it yourself if you think you'll enjoy it - not as a 'foot in the door' ploy.

Have you asked your careers office/UAS Sqn about whether you could attend a 'Realistic Job Preview'? This would take you to Boulmer for a couple of days, let you have a look at what we do and give you the chance to chat over a beer with both U/T and qualified JOs

Whatever you choose, good luck:ok:

[getmeupthere]

again replies much appreciated, i seem to be getting the bigger picture, seems life within the raf is all about grabbing the best opportunity as it goes past and crawl upwards when possible. I am very determined to succeed in my role however was really unaware of these chop rates, thought that was only an issue for aircrew !! So slightly concerned about that news!

Thanks again guys much appreciated.

[Spotting Bad Guys]

"life within the raf is all about grabbing the best opportunity as it goes past and crawl upwards when possible"


No, no, no, no, no, NO!

Life in the RAF is what you make it. Short service or PC, flying or ground Branch, fast-track to * rank or career spec aircrew (PAS) Flt Lt...it's what you do and the circumstances you find yourself in that make it what it is for you.

Yes, opportunities will present themselves, and it's a foolish man/woman who passes them up - but if it's not for you then so what? Don't be so focused on 'crawling upwards' - life in the RAF has changed but it's still a great job - you should be looking forward to the cameraderie, the banter, detachments (some good, some not), and making your way in your chosen Branch.

I'd suggest that if you want to 'crawl upwards' or have any illusions that you want to be CAS, then the FC Branch may not be for you. The RAF's executive Branch is GD(P) (mostly) and if you aspire to the heady heights of *dom then FC may not be the right choice. Not due to any lack of quality on the part of the FCs, just the hard reality of the fact!

Be warned about the chances of airborne FC though - whilst I am not on E-3s, I have good mates who are and the impression I have been given is that once trained, the E-3 FCs tend to stay put. This makes it more difficult for new guys to get in to the programme. I'm not saying that this is right or wrong - just that you have to ensure that the rose tinted specs are removed before you sign up on the promise of a flying tour!

That said, best of luck.

SBG

[Pontius Navigator]

The guys on the E3 did stay put it is true many ducking and weaving to retain their flying pay. I know some however that had to accept ground tours under ground to get the FC ground time in as E3 FC did not count as an in-branch tour.

This may have changed with the recognition that we are an expeditionary force.

[Yellow Sun]

getmeupthere

Then again there is the career pattern followed by a colleague of mine. Joined as an FC, worked hard and did well but felt that better reward was to be found elsewhere. Left and became a civilian air traffic controller. Did well again, worked in the tower at LHR. Worked for his commercial pilot licence during this period. Left ATC and is now a 737 captain. The common thread running through this was that he put everything into whatever he did but made sure that he alone made the decisions about his future, not relying on ther people or organisations.

Good luck whatever you decide.

YS

[Mach2]

... post IOT -

In 2 words - No Chance! While there is some flexibility before you start training, once you are in uniform, that's it!. It is even included as a warning in the final brief before you leave OASC,

Quote
"Once you have accepted any offer that is made, it is highly unlikely that you would subsequently be able to change"

If you do request a branch change before you even start professional training, you are begging the question 'why did you accept the offer in the first place?' and the follow-on ' Maybe the RAF would be better off without someone who doesn't know what he wants'!

[Jacks Down]

Getmeupthere,

M2 is spot on. I am not 'the horses mouth' but I am pretty in regular touch with it!

In reply to a point raised earlier in the thread the pass rate for FC is 60% or thereabouts at the moment.

Good luck whatever you decide.

JD

[getmeupthere]

Mach 2 its not that i dont know what i want. I have always stated throughout, the thing i want the most is to get a commision into the service, its just i would love more than anything to fly but can accept under the current circumstances that its extremely tough to be given the chance to. Therefore i will try to branch change and if i am not successful i will happily continue with the roll of F/C and give it my best.

Thanks for all the input i no feel i know alittle better what to expect and have been made aware of certain facts such as the chop rate and how getting airbourne although possible unlikely due to the E-3 F/Cs staying put the minute they get their paws in the door, fair play to them id love to be given that opportunity.

Thanks Again all

[Bruiser Loose]

There has been a lot of good advice given to you, getmeupthere, but I think something has been overlooked. Have you thought about an aviation career in the RN or AAC? There are good opportunities avail as a pilot or observer in either of these Arms of the forces. There are also Common Wealth Countries that you could look at...........

Good Luck whatever you decide.

:ok:

[Magic Mushroom]

Bruiser Loose,
The Navy boys still have observers, but I think the AAC got rid of observers and gunners years ago.

Good luck anyway Getmeupthere...
Regards,
M2

[JessTheDog]

RN observers are trained as fixed-wing and rotary pilots.

[Pontius Navigator]

getupthere,

Now for a bit more advice whatever you do. Use CAPITAL letters where appropriate. It is I not i and it is never raf.

It is correct to say raff in the context riff-raff but NEVER in the context of the Royal Air Force.

Nothing will go down better at OASC than to here a candiate say he "Wants to join the raf to fly."

ARE A EFF but never raf.

Incidentally "want to join the RAF to fly" will immediately open you to the next set of questions: Why? What? Waht do you know about . . . "

The interviewer is always setting you up for opening questions. If you do not want to go down a given route make you first answer adequate and closing.

"I want to join the RAF to fly in fighters because . . . " It will still open up the interview but gives you more control.

[airborne_artist]

RN observers are trained as fixed-wing and rotary pilots

Either that's not what you mean to say, or you don't know what you are talking about!

An observer in the RN is what the RAF used to call a navigator, and their front line role is in Merlin ASW, the Sea King ASaC (AEW), or in the Lynx.

Pilots are pilots and obs are obs, and that's it! See the RN page (http://www.royal-navy.mod.uk/static/pages/6633.html) on the subject.

[JessTheDog]

Either that's not what you mean to say, or you don't know what you are talking about!

I got my information from working with helo aircrew, who said that their observers had to qualify fixed-wing before progressing to helo, and that they had to be able to fly the beast as well as do their "day job".

I will happily defer to anyone who anyone who knows better and hang my head in shame....:{

[airborne_artist]

RN obs train on the Jetstream, so perhaps that's where the FW connection came in.

The RN website says that some Obs (and it won't be many) may sit in (RAF) Nimrods, but they have had no in service FW role since the Phantoms, Buccs and Gannets were withdrawn.

I understand that the bar for entry has been raised and that pilots have to have "passed" for obs on their aptitude testing. Whether it's also the same in reverse I don't know.

[Bruiser Loose]

I didn't mean to mislead anyone, sorry. What I meant to say was one could have a successful career as a pilot or observer in the FAA and a pilot in the AAC.

Airborne artist is correct when he says the only connection an observer has with the FW community is during training on Jetstreams. Observer's have no formal training to drive helicopters, standfast the one-eyed freak show boys on 849 Sqn, who get a little.

The aptitude requirements stated earlier are correct. To go any further in pilot selection, a candidate must pass for both pilot and obs. The same is not true for observers, who need only pass for obs.

Hope this clears things up.

Fly safe, :ok: