F-35 vs Eurofighter!

[nick0021]

In a straight dog fight who is going to win?!

:confused: :D

would it be the Much hyped, Over budget, Overdue European Disatser that is the Typhoon,or would it be the cheaper, more stealthly F-35?

:ok:

Has anyone got any testing hours under their belts with regards to these two aircraft?

[fac51]

Nick,

You have obviously misunderstood the user requirements for these aircraft and the world we live in today. JSF isn't really designed to 'dogfight' as you put it, whilst close quarter maneouvrability would have been one of the key original requirements on Typhoon. So I would expect Typhoon to win as a simple answer.

You need to consider Beyond Visual Range etc... and all the changes since the Berlin Wall fell that have impacted the requirement for Typhoon.

Your simplistic 'Much hyped, Over budget, Overdue European Disatser' sentiment is so easy to say, but much more difficult to justify to those of us who put their heart and soul into projects like this. And how you could even contemplate the fact that F35 is going to be cheaper than Typhoon astounds me.

Anyway, just the usual thoughtless and generally baseless attitude that really supports the Industrial Base in the UK. Not.

Thanks
Fac51.

[VoicesFromTheCreche]

I'm guessing that these aircraft would be highly unlikely to come up against each other in a 'dog fight.'

Might it be more poignant to put them both up against existing fighters of known or potential future threats!


derrr

[maxburner]

The Typhoon is in service and the F-35 is years away. So, who says it will be cheaper and better than Typhoon? Look at the unit price for an F22. Makes Typhoon look like good value. Back to the question. I suspect that a Typhoon would eat an F-35 for breakfast.

[Zoom]

fac51
You can't argue with nick that the Typhoon is 'much hyped, over-budget and overdue', no matter how many people have 'put their heart and soul' into it (there, there). It has been fanfared for 2 decades, it is costing a lot more than originally planned and it is xx years late into service. And it will probably be more expensive than the F-35, although I doubt that anyone would be able to get the true figures to prove it. However, I would stop short of calling it a disaster as it is probably not a bad ship after all, and it would likely see off the F-35 in most circumstances.

Acknowledging the facts about projects that go wrong doesn't mean that one is not supporting the industrial base in the UK, but you must agree that the Typhoon debacle and others do give said base a bl**dy bad name.

[STANDTO]

Is the day of the fighter now gone?

looking at the West, who now, in the forseeable future presents a tangible threat to either Europe or the US in any meaningful shape. We seem to have to b*gger off to other theatres to look for a fight these days. Within the middle east, it is only the allies that have any tangible airforces, andwe sold them all the planes anyway.

China is a difficult one to weigh up, and may emerge as an issue in future years. However, they seem to be making so much money out of Western consumerism that they would be foolish to come looking for a scrap.

Unless we all start a ruck on the continental shelf again, short of a credible, mobile, carrier borne force for a bit of global intervention here and there, I can't really see the point.

..........or am i just a misguided fool? :hmm:

[Razor61]

Although China has the main credible 'force', most of it's fighters are obsolete apart from the new build Flankers and J-8 Finback (of which is only an interceptor) I can only think of North Korea but lets face it, again, obsolete in the fighter role (and relying, like China on quantity) and if the NK's and US end up scrapping, would the UK back the US up this time round that far from home?

What would we send, 1 carrier with 12 Shars/GR7s onboard?

On topic, has the F-35 overcome the weight issues of the STOVL variant yet? And although 2012 is the date for our first CVF, will the UK actually have its first batch of F-35's ready and waiting by then?
How long was it from the first EAP aircraft to getting the Typhoon airborne?

[plt_aeroeng]

fac51: Some years ago, during Typhoon definition, I was touring DERA Farnborough and watched a man in the loop simulation of a many to many air combat over the channel. My host commented that their general conclusion at the time was that Eurofighter would have a 6:1 advantage over an F-18B, and that most of this advantage was due to the ability to use off-axis launch of the new missiles.

Subjectively, Typhoon seems to have a (small??) manoeuvrability advantage over current generation aircraft. Still, the degree to which the systems are integrated is likely to be the biggest discriminator between individual aircraft.

Also, we should pay attention to the current controversy playing out in AvWeek about a recent exercise between USAF F-15Cs and the Indian Air Force. The Indians had the audacity to trounce the F-15s, using adaptable tactics and their IRST capabilities. Neither the F-35 nor the Typhoon seems to have any characteristics which would have significantly changed the results of this exercise. On an individual basis, they may be better aircraft, but the force doctrine and battle plan of the day seems to have had more influence than incremental aircraft capability.

Nevertheless, my suspicion is that F-35 might overmatch Typhoon simply due to its ability to supercruise and newer avionics. (Until Typhoon gets its next generation radar).

Should be interesting when F-35 gets to the point of being able to participate in major exercises.

With respect to China, there doesn't seem to have been much public information about their capabilities, doctrine, training levels etc. This needs attention, as China is getting to the point where they may well get quite aggressive in the region. Does anyone have knowledge of how they may develop in the next few years?

I would think India/Singapore/Australia are the places which may best understand Chinese capabilities/plans/threats. Any comments?

[Archimedes]

Although it's dependent upon computer modelling, the Typhoon is meant to be better in the air-air role than anything in the sky today apart from the F/A-22. It's intended to be more than capable of dealing with any upgraded Flanker/Fulcrum that it might run into.

I don't know how it's meant to perform against the Chinese J-10 (the aeroplane formerly known as the IAI Lavi, if you're a cynic) , but I'd make a guess that it is at least equal to it.

[the_cyclone]

The one with the bigger stick.

(Your cynicism of the Typhoon is astounding! Weren't you very impressed when you flew in it?)

[Spotting Bad Guys]

Cynical? Yes...maybe. I have attended a few of the BAe roadshows and presentations, and had the opportunity to ask the high-paid help some fairly direct questions.

IMHO the Typhoon claims are flawed when you consider the lack of RCS-reduction techniques in the construction of the aircraft...squared intakes, 90 degree angle between fin and wing etc (would go ito more detail but not in a public forum). I've no doubt it's a delight to fly and fight, but if the bad guy can see you on his radar a long way out....

Cheers

SBG

[Melchett01]

I've no doubt it's a delight to fly and fight, but if the bad guy can see you on his radar a long way out....

If we end up getting the STOVL version, we won't be any better off with this than the Typhoon. The STOVL version has a reduced internal bomb bay capacity - certainly can't get a PW in it, so they must be put on under-wing pylons. And if that doesn't make the aircraft light up like a Christmas tree on radar then I'll be bu****ed.

Personally I think they will both be outstanding platforms, as long as we get the numbers we originally thought of and the government doesn't give all the funding for them to the afro-caribbean-bisexual-one legged-buddhist-single parent association of camden leaving us with half a jet and things bodged into the cockpit with duck tape!

[the_cyclone]

Stealth is a very expensive technology and no doubt you would be criticising the project more if the cost per a/c was increased significantly. Certainly being stealthy would be an advantage, but at what cost and for what bonus? If you are concerned about 'bad guy' aircraft seeing the Typhoon, then aslong as it has a better radar and a better missile, they will see it just before the BVRAAM slams through their canopy. Job done.

Over budget and late it is, but a peice of ****e and useless given today's threat, it isn't.