NAC and the Award - Part 3

[jon.pierre]

For background, I refer readers to....Topic: NAC pilots threatened with sack...PART 2 - page 3 (http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141565&perpage=15&highlight=NAC&pagenumber=3) and Topic: ALL NAC pilots threatened with sack! (http://www.pprune.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=138104&highlight=NAC)
31st August 2004
I have received a communication from the operator... It would appear this operator’s employees have obtained an equitable and legally acceptable format of employment. This PPRuNe thread has achieved it’s objective and in all fairness, is now locked. Feel free to open a new thread, but only if the conditions being offered to existing and new employees are not in accordance with Industrial Relations law.

Woomera It is more 7 months since it became law, and more than 2 months since the last significant comment on this topic. NOTHING NEW has happened about it at NAC. Despite promises to both his staff, and major contract customers, of an EBA and award back pay; HA has DONE nothing to indicate these words are anymore than that, words.

Staff are still getting payed little to work a lot, and open to who knows what sort of liability by flying for a travel agent, who call itself an airline, own there own plane, publicly advertise a schedule, but use NAC pilots as they don’t have an AOC, chief pilot, op’s manual or any of the airline infrastructure required to operate its aircraft. Ref… Tiwi travel and freight website (http://www.tiwitravel.com.au/schedule1.shtml)

The supposed EBA negotiations have been sitting in HA's court for 2 months now... and nothing!

There have been plenty of posts noting NAC’s loss of A/C and inability to pay bills... IF the company IS falling apart, it is the staff who will loose out before HA you can be sure of that.

Common' HA, you agreed on public record to an EBA and that staff would be receiving full back pay!

Are all your words meaningless and promises hollow? It's dragged on long enough, time to cough up.

JP

[ginjockey]

And in addition to the above, is HA even back in Darwin? I heard he left Darwin in a rush after his much publicised car accident and have heard no more.

[Dj Dave]

Looks like NAC is going down baby ....

Mate it felt bloody good peeling the NAC off the baron we got of you !

Hope all the pilots will get to see their entitlements, keep harrassing guys

DD:cool:

[dasjab]

Jon.Pierre

Can you explain to me the rules that Tiwi travel and freight are breaking as I see many Airlines around that operate under an alternate AOC. There are many aircraft charter brokers around that use other operators to fly their charters. I think Big Sky Express are operated by Transjet??? I believe as long as the AOC holder is still responsible for the crews, duty times ect I cant see a problem. :ok:

[jon.pierre]

Dasjab,
Correct me if I’m wrong (I could be if you think so), but I cannot find any reference on the above linked web site to the fact that their RPT schedule is actually just bookings made on behalf of a third party supplier. As far as there website reads to me, TT&F is advertising a “Tiwi Travel & Freight Schedule.”CIVIL AVIATION REGULATIONS 1988
- REG 210
Restriction of advertising of commercial operations

(1) A person must not give a public notice, by newspaper advertisement, broadcast statement or any other means of public announcement, to the effect that a person is willing to undertake by use of an Australian aircraft any commercial operations if the last-mentioned person has not obtained an Air Operator's Certificate authorising the conduct of those operations.
Penalty: 10 penalty units.

(2) An offence against subregulation (1) is an offence of strict liability.
Note For strict liability, see section 6.1 of the Criminal Code.In fact in their terms and conditions the statement… The Company may arrange with any other person, firm or corporation to undertake the carriage hereby contracted for, or service ancillary thereto (including the transportation of the passenger and baggage to or from any airport or taking off or landing place). …indicates that under normal operating conditions, the company contracted by the customer to carry out the travel service is “Tiwi Island Travel and Freight,” but that they may be substituted.

On demand charter, could be but for the schedule they so publicly advertise. Flight No 007, 009, 011… Ha. Looks like an RPT airline, but certainly doesn’t act like one when the check in agent is weighing pax and freight with bathroom scales on GRASS. But it’s all fine, “J-J-J-Just Go.”CAO 82.0
3.3 Each certificate authorising charter or regular public transport operations is subject to the condition that its holder (“the AOC holder”) must not, without the prior written approval of CASA, enter into an arrangement with a person whose application for a certificate is still pending (“the other person”) under which the AOC holder agrees:
(a) to use, in any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any aircraft proposed to be covered by the certificate sought; or
(b) to use, in connection with any operation covered by the AOC holder’s certificate, any person proposed to be employed or engaged by the other person in connection with any operation proposed to be covered by the certificate sought; or
(c) to conduct any operation, or any part of an operation, proposed to be covered by the certificate sought.Tiwi travel and freight SHOULD be advertising that their bookings are for/on behalf of NAC, and as NEITHER COMPANY is RPT, should not be advertising a RPT schedule.

If TT&F are applying for their own AOC, then NAC shouldn’t been anywhere near them.

[dasjab]

Thankyou JP for your response.

And thankyou for all of the material supplied from your document library. I get the opinion from your posts that you are a little more emotionally attached to this topic than myself and have taken in the points you have made.

After many years in the industry I have realised that there are many grey areas in the regulations and sometimes quoting them doesnt really solve the problems raised.

I understand that there are many "Regular Charter Flights" that are allowed to be operated in regional areas that dont get subjected to the legislation that you have quoted. Some are government tenders that are regular flights that you do not require an RPT AOC to operate. Is it possible that this run is in a similar boat???

I do however agree that TTF should have somewhere on their website "Operated by Northern Air Charter"


:O

[jon.pierre]

Daslab,
I agree there are grey areas and loop holes. The authorities know it, don't generally like it, but accept they exist and companies work around that.

But, like someone dodging a drink driving charge, if you fragrantly and publicly waive the laws shortcomings in the authorities "face;" you bring their angry attention to everything that you do. Everyone has a skeleton in the closet, but some have the remains of a genocide.

TT&F is a side note; point of thread is that HA/NAC has done nothing to meet his promises and obligations to its staff, a money pit that keeps getting deeper. Good estimate is $500+ thousand dollars owed in back pay, and time is still passing.

If things are as fragile as they seem at NAC, perhaps the staff should be getting their claim in now and, hopefully, be near the front of the creditor queue come liquidation time.

JP.

[Woomera]

An operator is conducting Regular Public Transport operations if it is operating in accordance with CAR 206 (1) (c):

the purpose of transporting persons generally, or transporting cargo for persons generally, for hire or reward in accordance with fixed schedules to and from fixed terminals over specific routes with or without intermediate stopping places between terminals.

[dasjab]

I dont want to keep going on about RPT but I am still a bit confused.

1. Is a bank run considered an RPT run? (Fixed Schedules, Fixed Routes, Fixed Terminals)??

2. If the operation does not meet all of these requirements eg. does not depart at fixed times, is it RPT.

3. Can a licenced travel agent purchase charter flights of a charter operator on a regular basis and sell seats to the general public?

I have approached CASA to clarify these types of questions and have been told that I have to gain my own legal advise of what the regulations permit. :ok:

Any information would be appreciated.

Cheers

[Tinstaafl]

A bank run is not RPT. Accommodation on the a/c isn't available to the general public (or their boxes). Accommodation on the a/c is only available to a limited number of entities.

That those entities in turn are entreating the public to use their services is immaterial since the public's goods could travel by any method or alternate service at the freight company's whim.

[Woomera]

Tins.

It's called an "interposed entity". CASA seem reluctant to go there where freight is concerned and only goes there in selected cases where passengers are concerned. CAR 206 would not be one of CASA's more concise pieces of legislation!

I suspect Bank Running would be RPT operations via an interposed entity if one were to consider the subsequent Court findings in the October 1994 loss of Rockwell Commander 690B VH-SVQ. (http://www.atsb.gov.au/aviation/occurs/occurs_detail.cfm?ID=332)

("The flight was planned as a regular public transport flight from Williamtown to Lord Howe Island." and "The investigation determined that the flight was not a regular public transport flight as the company did not hold the required approval from the New South Wales Air Transport Council to operate such flights over the Williamtown to Lord Howe Island route.")

It also seems to be the way the UK international holiday market operates. Travel agency sells individual low cost tickets to a holiday destination, then charter a high capacity aircraft to perform the service. Perhaps the UK CAA has more clearly defined legislation to cover these operations?

Woomera

[Dj Dave]

HA wouldn't need to go that high as the Tiwi Travel and freight only go to Bathurst at 2000 Amsl. :}

What happened to the "other" government contracts done in the C500 ??

[T3000]

Woomera, do you seriously believe what this operater is telling you. This operator would sell his mother to the devil.



No operator is communicating with Woomeri. I was simply commenting on the confusing CAR relevent to RPT operations, and how it is variously interpreted and enforced (or not enforced) by CASA.

Woomeri do not become embroiled in PPRuNe debate.

Woomera

[WLM]

Could someone tell me who the Travel agent cie is and the operation location?
Cheers
WLM;)

[Dj Dave]

WLM,

read the first post by Jon Pierre on this topic closely.

Tiwi Travel and Freight operate from a little donga next to Tenix Aviation at the airport. They don't have a terminal at BTI, which will be very interesting to see R-R-Ray weigh pax in the mud under a downpour.

J-J-Just G-G-Go you are 50 kg overweight but hey it's only bathrooms scales installed in accordance with FAA-TSO 666 (aka might just die loading system).



Cheers

DD

[Howard Hughes]

Hang on this is news....

Is R-R-Ray operating Tiwi Travel and Freight?

Sorry if I'm a bit slow but do'nt get much news down south.

Cheers, HH.


:ok:

[G.A. Boy]

Yes, R R R Ray is the agent for Tiwi Travel and Freight, (ex Wimray), based on Bathurst Island. Hasn't lost any weight either. He'd like to think he operates it.

[Howard Hughes]

Thanks G A Boy,

Are you still CP at Air N?
And what's Ray doing on Bathurst?
Did he marry that school teacher?

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

[G.A. Boy]

Yes HH. R R R R R R Ray married that teacher yes, and moved to YBTI about 18 months ago where he lives with his wife, and is the agent for Tiwi Travel and Freight amongst other things.

[Howard Hughes]

All very interesting, my how things have changed.
Cheers, HH.
:ok:

[The Voice]

If it is that HA is involved in this travel and freight mob, who else is?

If NAC is in the sad state of disrepair that it is said to be, how could a new op. be financed without assistance?

The 'terminal' at BTI aint flash, but it does accomodate the hoardes, for most of which, a trip the airport is a gala social event!

[LUVJET]

Voice,

a guy from down south apparantly runs(owns) this joint tiwi.(He hung out with a german bloke at morrabbin and ran a joke of an operation that lasted two tenths of *%#@ all time.)

It seems people in this industry are definite suckers for punishment.

my sources are yet to confirm that HA is involved officially (or on the books as they say). but the connection certainly seems apparant.

but you know what ???? it does not matter. those who are involved in this industry and play elusive games.......maaaan its a matter of time.

the next two months will be judgement time for all those who believe they are above the law......god.......their family.......and most of all themselves...... i can sleep at night like a baby........can people who do the incorrect thing do the same.....dont think so.

darwin aviation scene will be different story in the next sixty days.


only the professional strong will remain and the rest......well they may have to sell donuts for a living........cool, the farthest away from aviation the better.......

it a great time for aviation in the NT......for once in a long time it looks like it may be done right.........with out those whom concentrate on one flight at a time and worry about 2morrow........2morrow.

TO A GREAT AVAITION FUTURE IN THE NT.......WITH OUT A PAIN IN THE ASS, UN ETHICAL, DO AS LIKE OPERATOR....GONE ......TIME HAS COME FOR ALL EGOS TO BOW OUT GRACEFULLY...AND FOR PROFESSIONAL AVAITION TO TAKE OVER.

[Bill Smith]

LJ

Not one to pick on spelling but couldn't let this one go!

If your going to get on your soapbox about being a professional aviator, then please learn how to spell "aviation" x2

TO A GREAT AVAITION FUTURE IN THE NT.......WITH OUT A PAIN IN THE ASS, UN ETHICAL, DO AS LIKE OPERATOR....GONE ......TIME HAS COME FOR ALL EGOS TO BOW OUT GRACEFULLY...AND FOR PROFESSIONAL AVAITION TO TAKE OVER.

[G.A. Boy]

Well how can he not be involved! Tiwi Island Travel and Freight use HA's AOC, pilots and aircraft! And hes not involved, yeah right! :\

[The Voice]

darwin aviation scene will be different story in the next sixty days

oh? really? do tell ..

my sources are yet to confirm that HA is involved officially (or on the books as they say). but the connection certainly seems apparant

I would suggest then as 'your sources' are 'yet to confirm' that caution may be the best order of your day .. and for the rest of us interested but uneducated few .. could you elaborate on the apparent connection?

[OpsNormal]

Hello again The Voice.

I believe that the next sixty days being referred to will be the rising to prominence on the airfield (at least into public view) of another operator from down south (a fairly 'straight to the point' kind of name) ;) ... hoping to take a rather large slice of whatever action might arise from the possible demise of one company that many are touting is about to happen.

Others wait in the wings with definite interest.

What some operators are unaware of is a sleeping giant (not from the outside, especially in DN), with very deep pockets is stirring quietly... :ooh:

Oh Bill, by the way.... if you are going to slip the boot into LUVJET about his/her fingers not following the directions of his/her brain, at least have the courtesy of ensuring that your own post is correctly punctuated.

A full-stop every now and again in your own post might well be in order there Bill.

Glass houses etc.... ;)

My own spelling and syntax is far from perfect, but I don't have a need to impress upon others a desire to prove myself a being of higher intellect than they are, just because I can.

You have a fantastic day now, y'hear!!?!:ok:

[The Voice]

Hiya Ops ..

What some operators are unaware of is a sleeping giant (not from the outside, especially in DN), with very deep pockets is stirring quietly

ooha .. now THAT'S interesting news!


another operator from down south

I read something only the other day advertising the impending arrival of DirectAir, expanding north from ASP? .. I don't mind spelling it out .. (I believe it was in the NT news on wed.)

[Woomera]

The title of this thread is: "NAC and the Award - Part 3"

I am not comfortable with the "thread drift" and certain statements currently being made regarding both individuals and companies.

Lets stick to the subject, shall we?

Woomera

[maxgrad]

ok ok
NAC should get an award for running this long.
except that nac will probably be running away shortly.
Amazing isn't it. If a company treats it's staff well and works within the regs the staff work hard, the company moves forward and stays around.
doe sorry just day dreaming:E :E

[Bill Smith]

I by no way implied I was of a higher intellect!
I just think that if we are in the Aviation Industry, it's a word that we should be able to spell.

Have a nice day:D

[Guest]

Heard a rumour today that NAC are not only loosing planes because they don’t pay the lease but pilots are leaving because they are not getting any hours.

Direct are looking to give NAC some real competition for customers too.

[Howard Hughes]

You can see the future right here. (http://www.directair.com.au/)

Cheers, HH.

:ok:

PS: Impressive stable of aircraft.;)

[dasjab]

I would not get too excited, I hear that Direct Air Charter are also looking to x-hire a chieftain to base in Darwin. Maybe they dont have an abundance of their own aircraft to send to Darwin???

Perception is half the battle.

[OpsNormal]

Das, funny you should mention that, the last one went awry in the process......
a "stolen" PA-31, VH-RDA (http://www.abc.net.au/news/australia/nt/alice/200410/s1226848.htm)

It was a nice break from the usual routine to ferry that PA-31 back to YSBK a couple of weeks ago after the bank took ownership of the machine that caused all the fuss in that story.

Owners of aircraft need to be paid for the use of the equipment or the unfortunate follow-on of that is the bank becomes the new owner of the aircraft. It is as simple as that.

Operators of aircraft need to pay maint. organisations for work carried out or the engineer concerned loses that income, or if lucky (or the bill is big enough) becomes the owner of yet another airframe. In Darwin one of the biggest aircraft fleet owners is one of the local engineers!

Direct are pushing into Darwin, but aren't the ones to watch in the near future..... Perception is indeed a double edged sword that some use to appear a larger threat than what they really are, and others use to hide behind so as not to tip their hand until the last moment. My lips are sealed. :ooh:

Bill, I was probably being a little too harsh, my apologies. The general standard of literacy in this day and age would appear to be somewhat lacking in general society as a whole. The internet (and these types of BB's) would seem to be one of the larger culprits.

OpsN. ;)

[gary gearbox]

Impressive stable of aircraft, yes, but I believe they only operate the ones with propellers, perception indeed! (even HA operated the jet he advertised) I would not get to worried about the perceived threat in DN or AS just yet. There is alot of talk but not alot of action.

GG

[George.Handel]

Maybe they dont have an abundance of their own aircraft to send to Darwin??? Don't understand that, as they own a couple online with NAC, thought they'd just take them off the competition... they're already in Darwin.

BUT... I heard today that HA was seen out negotiating with another big, recently unemployed, name in the DN aviation seen.:ooh:

[dasjab]

George.Handel

I think you might be getting Direct Air Charter (Who are looking at operating in Darwin) mixed up with Direct Air Services easily done. Direct Air Services is a Newcastle based Charter Airline with about 7 or 8 cheiftains and they have a few up in Darwin with NAC they operate all their flights two crew not a bad operation. www.directairservices.com.au

Cheers :ok:

[dasjab]

23

I think you misunderstood my last post. I was just pointing out that the chieftains currently operated by NAC are owned by a Newcastle company by the name of Direct Air Services. I believe the company based in Melbourne in called Direct Air Charter and that the Newcastle based Direct Air Services run a very tight operation. I am sure that Direct Air Charter are a fine operation as well.

:O