MCC Course

[Gonz]

Anyone out there know of a reputable provider of Multi-Crew Co-operation Courses.

Am looking for somewhere in the Midlands - or close by - with training on in-use jet aircraft.

[moggiee]

As I don't want to be accused of advertising, I shall refrain from mentioning the name of the FTO I work for. However, if you wish to send me a PM then I can give you some more info.

[VIRGA]

Multiflight at Leeds were fantastic. All the instructors know there stuff and the sim is great. You don't need to do it in a jet. Its the crew co-operation that counts not the flying.

The sim is that FNTP2 thing. Its set up like a kingair. 'Good enough'. The cost is fair and Pat was great.

[Megaton]

Virga is absolutely correct: you don't need to do it in a jet....but sometimes it helps.

I did the Oxford MCC on their 737 which, by the way, was a thoroughly enjoyable course. Few weeks later I had an interview for a Dash 8 job. Sim used for the assessment was the company 146. Experience gained on the 737 was invaluable with calls, procedures, handling similar to that of the assessment sim. Without having had the MCC on a jet I doubt I would have done as well (not that I did brilliantly).

The MCC is not a handling course but inevitably you can't help but pick up a fair amount of knowledge whilst learning the crew-stuff.

[timzsta]

If you are prepared to travel a little further I would recommend EPTA who use a TriStar sim. You will get some raw data flying and manual approaches / landings which may prove useful as mentioned above.

EPTA will provide you with a long list of places you can stay in the local area for about £18 per night.

Give me a PM if you want any more details.

[Alex Whittingham]

MCT use a TriStar sim, maybe the same one. I think they charge just under two grand. I would always recommend a jet sim, particularly if you can find a full motion one. More importantly, get a good sim partner and take it seriously. Learn the SOPs and the briefings and then follow them. If you get any manual flight time use it to get used to speed control, particularly on the level off, and the landing technique.

[WX Man]

Yep, Ham Phisted is spot on.

I did my MCC with Oxford, and I'd go as far as to say that if you did your MCC anywhere else you'd be making a mistake. Everything about it was brilliant- they must have thought I was taking the p*** on the feedback form!

BTW, Ham Phisted- who was the sim ride with? How many hours have you got and are they still looking for people?!

[november.sierra]

Avtec in Dublin offer MCC on the B737-200 and from what I've gathered, it is beneficial to do the MCC on non EFIS aircraft to improve scanning skills. Air Berlin offer MCC on the B737-800 including FMC training, and both providers offer a package in the region of 5,000 Euros.

[moggiee]

I agree that non-EFIS for MCC is better. There is not time on a 20 hour MCC for the pilot to become totally familiar with the operating environment and the transition is eased with a conventional aeroplane.

I used to teach MCC on an EFIS equipped jet sim - now I teach it on a conventionally instrumented turboprop sim. I am pretty certain that EFIS is a disadvantage but I am less convinced (now) that jet is an ADvantage.

We used to have a lot of trouble with the pace and performance of the jet sim - it could be hard for trainees to keep up with it to begin with and this got in the way of the MCC teaching - SOP, situational awareness etc. The (slightly) slower pace of a turboprop is a good step up without being too big a leap. The step up to a jet is then not as great as many people would have you believe.

If you are doing a full blown Jet Orientation Course then the situation is different - 50% or more of that course is likely to be manual flying, learning jet performance and jet handling and if you know that you are going onto a jet later (as our sponsored cadets were) then it was valuable.

As an illustration, my multi-engined pilot training in the RAF was carried out on a Jetstream Turboprop. After graduation with my wings, I went straight onto a 4 engined Jet and found the transition to a jet to be no trouble at all - despite being only an "average" pilot. However, what DID cause me difficulty was getting used to working as part of a 4 man flightdeck crew - our MCC/CRM was "picked up" as we went along. An MCC course on any sim type would have been a huge advantage at that time.

[Send Clowns]

Wx Man

So you've also done the same course at every other school, and concluded that Oxford is better than them? How can you say "any other would be a mistake" with a straight face?

I am with Alex here. You pay your money for the certificate. Then get the most you can out of the simulator training. Mine was fantastically helpful, on a Tristar. Full motion made it much more realistic. I kept up with the jet, Moggiee, even hand flying asymmetric, although I was relatively high hour and very current which may have helped.

[moggiee]

Send Clowns - the majority of people in current flying practice should be able to keep up with the jet. However, those out of practice (it may be years post IR that they do an MCC) may not find it so easy.

What were you doing handflying asymmetric on the MCC? Should have had the AP engaged!

[Send Clowns]

Yes, well it was the first course that we had run (both students were staff who needed the course, as we knew we would have teething trouble and didn't want to risk bad publicity due to messing outside customers about), and the instructors had not then learnt all the faults that could occur on the sim. Could only get a lateral mode on the flight directors, so couldn't engage the AP after the engine failure just after wheels off. No problems flying manually on raw data though ;)

Found out after how to get flight directors back. Absolutely agree about possible difficulty keeping up when out of practice, but my partner in the course did fine on the AP even though not really current.

[moggiee]

A decent, intuitive autopilot/flight drector that can be operated by either pilot helps a great deal.

[give me an axe]

Did my IR on the FNPT II at multiflight and it was fine, but did my MCC with MCT Bournemouth on the Tristar sim and it proved invaluable when that first sim ride came along - alot better than having done an MCC on an FNPT II, and for a very similar price.....

the old boys who run MCT were great , all ex- BA, Virgin, BCAL 747 / Tristar training captains - definately helped get that first job, when i had to do a sim ride on a DC-9 !

[WX Man]

So you've also done the same course at every other school, and concluded that Oxford is better than them? How can you say "any other would be a mistake" with a straight face?

Ahhhhhh foiled again, <scooby doo>if it wasn't for those damn kids...</scooby doo>

OK fair point!!! But I did an MCC at Oxford and the whole experience was pretty good. And I would have done it where you suggested, Send Clowns- I did try and get hold of an MCC partner, but in the end I couldn't find one so had to go with what was available! Price-wise, they are all very much the same.