Integrated course vs hour building

[joe_ninja]

I'm a reasonably mature wannabe (31) and have finally made the decision to chase my life-long dream and change career to train as a commercial pilot.
I've shortlisted a couple of potential training establishments that appeal to me - Oxford Aviation and European Flight Training (EFT). The thing that really attracts me to the APP programme within EFT is the extra hours that can be built up as a flight instructor - they claim that you can graduate with approx 1500 hrs. I was hoping that this would set me above the low-hours wannabe's and perhaps offset my age.

I would appreciate any advice you guys could give me on this, as it now appears that airlines currently prefer low-hour pilots from an integrated course rather than flying experience from being a flight instructor. If true, would the OAT APP course give a better chance of securing a First Officer position? :confused:

Any comments most welcome!

Thanks,
JN

[Dan 98]

Hi joe_ninja,
I'm 30 and am also training to be a commercial pilot, I have 9 hours of my PPL to go before starting the ATPL exams with Bristol. I had always assumed that doing an integrated course would be best, however the overwhelming opinion seems to be that at our age ( yes we are old at 30!! no plenty of time to get a job ) Modular works much better. This is the route that I have chosen, it allows you to work for much longer in your current occupation ( I'm presuming that you have one ) costs about £15k less than Integrated and you generally have more hours as well.

Even if you put an Instructors rating on the course it still works out cheaper. You need to do a search as your question has been asked many times before hence the lack of response you have recieved! Obviously you must pick the route that fits your circumstances best, but dont assume that doing an integegrated course gives you an advantage over Modular, you will be told it does because they want your money all £55k - £60k of it, so do your research and pick what you thinks best. I believe if you have the determination and enthusiasm you will get a job eventually, at our age almost certainly on Turbo props to start with, but there is nothing wrong with that, most pilots I have spoken to look back on their time in Turbo props with very fond memories.
All the best

Dan

[joe_ninja]

Dan,

Many thanks for your advice. I didn't mean to reopen the modular vs integrated argument, I'm just a tad concerned that as Airlines begin to recruit pilots again their preference seems to be for students from integrated courses (e.g. BA approaching OAT & Cabair). I also read that some airlines have a minimum hour requriement for modular graduates - i.e. 1000 hours, but none if you are from an integrated background...

However, after a fair amount of research I admit that I'm tempted by the EFT course. The thought of gaining over 1000 hours certainly appeals to me! And, lets face it, a job flying turbo props certainly can't be a bad thing, especially compared to my current desk job! I'm flying out to Florida in Nov to have a look around the school. I should have a clearer idea after that.

All the best to you & good luck with your ATPL exams
JN

[Frank Furillo]

Hi Joe
I too am a mature wannabe 34 to be exact I am almost finished with my atpl theory's (through Bristol groundschool), and I chose to go Modular.
Many reasons for this, mainly why pay the extra.

You say that EFT will give you 1500 hours as a flight instructor, but you WILL need a US Visa allowing you to work.

I went to Florida for my PPL and hour building and it is a pain in the ass just getting a student visa. I am going back in the new year to complete my CPL, ME and IR with EFT.

Save some money, intergrated courses have very shinny brochures and promise the earth, then deliver nothing.

Look at it this way, the money you will save by going Modular you could buy a type rating!!!
FF

[joe_ninja]

Thanks Frank.

Good to see that you too have picked EFT for your training. Did you visit the school when you were in Florida? I had a chat with the owner Trevor over the phone and he seemed a decent chap. He answered all my questions without the usual salesman spin which was quite refreshing.

Also - good point about the visa. How long did it take you to get a student visa? I assume its not impossibe to get a visa to work in the states for a couple of years or EFT would be struggling to getting any APP students!

JN

[Frank Furillo]

Joe
Check your PM's
FF

[Jumbo Clingfilm]

Hi Joe.

Would be good to hear what you reckon of EFT on your return.

I too am looking at doing the same instructor/hour build early next year and reckon it offers future employers something beyond the mountain of other 200hr CPL/IR people. Having met & worked with recruitment people at an airline I reckon it will be a BIG help in getting our CV's higher up the pile. Also, it seems good that EFT allow pay-as-you-go and not all upfront. Safer by far if problems arise. Must also be a good way of making contacts for future job prospects beyond just Ryanair!

I've not had any problems or hassle with visa applications yet! Seems quite straight forward. Flying school fill out one form and send it to you. You then fill out 3 forms and take them with your passport to US Embassy in London. Takes a few hours. Well worth the £thousands saved.


Anyway, drop us a line and let us know what you reckon of EFT. Sounds good on paper.

Cheers///

[joe_ninja]

Jumbo

No probs - I'll mail you on my return.

JN

[Send Clowns]

joe_ninja

You are wrong, or rather 4 years out of date, except in the specific case of BA. It is the only company that is considering (still only that) recruiting low-hour integrated pilots in which there is reliably-reported preference for integrated students. Considering what you could do with the extra money and extra hours to persuade other employers to give you a job, and the few jobs there will be available ab-initio with BA, that is hardly a sound reason for going integrated!

The minimum hours in other airlines was for the old CAA self-improvers, from non-approved courses. All courses are now approved to the same standards, so there is no logical reason for any preference.

If you are starting just to fly for BA from the beginning, get sponsored or go and be an accountant. The chances are remote, after spending a fortune, and the job will get tedious. You'll never do any proper flying.

If you enjoy flying, go modular and work your way up, have fun now and fly the majors later when you have responsibilities and need money and to go home on a regular basis. If you want a good job and think flying is it, go modular and try to get into the low-costs or charters, possibly hrough something like the CTC JOC, work up like that.

[daw]

Jumbo if you want to improve your networks above all else then heading to the US isn't I believe the way to go for you. If networking/job prospects are what you want then:-

- go to a UK school/club. The sort of place where you come across the nice bloke that owns his own airline/charter and you ply him with booze and show him that you have a personality and can get along with anyone

- ensure it is at a airfield which has a mix of GA/biz jets/air taxi/air ambulance (see above)

- join a sports team that an airline operates

- find a school with a CFI that is "connected". There are some where personal recommendations are taken above all else. Don't forget many many jobs are never advertised, particularly for the smaller outfits.

There must be others but that is all I can think of for now.

[birdlady]

HI All

Some very good points made here. I have to agree with daw there about doing training in the UK. If you want any reasonable hope of getting a job flying charters, airlines etc this is the way. However, maybe to save yourself some bucks, do the PPL and hour building elsewhere then return to the UK for CPL/Multi. You are more likely to get a job in Europe if you train in European airspace. It apparently has a lot to do with busy airspace and how the americans approach instrument procedures. I myself have done my JAA PPL here in SA, and will be returning to Ireland to do my CPL. I have done some extensive research and the point that has come up the most is that if you want a job with a Europeanan company they want you to have trained in Europe.

Ciao BL :ok: :ok: :ok:

[scameron77]

I agree to an extent with whats been written regarding training in Europe, but the "busy airspace in Europe vs. US" thing I'm not so sure on. I've decided to opt for Long Beach California for a number of reasons, obviously cost, the people and the fleet available are the major factors that swung my decision over some of the Florida based operations. But the amount of traffic I will encounter was also high up my list. Long Beach is a busy budget airport (in the same vein as Stansted as I've been led to believe) and is only 20 miles approx from LAX plus all the traffic going North/South Between Seattle, San Fransisco and San Diego. It allows interesting trips as part of my training and a lack of big bloody swirling weather systems that involve "Dubbya" coming to the state to try to look empathetic.

Granted most airspace in the British Isles is congested and its really worthwhile learning here. But if you pick your training establishment cleverly and put enough back up, facts and figures and detail in your CV, any potential employer should see that you've got the required skills.

Now I am just starting out on this long road but I increasingly find on this forum that a number of people don't seem to credit the senior recruiters for flight orgs as people who are intelligent enough to ask pertinent questions and qualify the applicants answer e.g to questions such as why did you go "here" over "there"?

Rather it seems to be a lot of people here seem to think they have a sheet full of tick boxes and work their way through it, and if you went to a certain school and have every box ticked you get a job.

[daw]

I don't buy the arguments on airspace either. Sure when flying around LA the various socal frequencies are out of this world. But then shooting an ILS approach or SRA whilst doing my IMC rating into a class D airport in the north east was pretty busy with jets on long finals on my tail. It is all just down to the individual and how well you cope. I kind of like being thrown in at the deep end as it is a challenge whereas others might like the softly softly approach. Each to their own I say!

Point is if you want to develop networks and contacts then doing all of your professional training in the US is not the way forward IMHO. You will be amongst a melting pot of people from across the world and unless you have a green card you ain't going to get a job out there.

My advice for what it is worth is do your PPL, ME and hour building (single and multi) in the US but leave the CPL and IR to the UK and make sure you get a fair amount of UK experience in between.

[A and C]

The reason that the integrated course is sold to the airlines is that the training outfits make more MONEY from integrated students and the personnel directors have swallowed the bull they have been spun by the trainers !.

I know of one UK training outfit that only recomends intigrated students to the airlines despite the fact that a modular student has to meet exactly the same standards in training.

An airline that I know of was not told by the training outfit about this and was about to interview only pilots from the integrated untill I pointed out the money driven policy of the training outfits was reducing the pool of pilots to choose from and recrutment policy has changed.

Changing airline recrutment policy is easy if the pilots do the recruting but as soon as a Personnel officer is in charge common sense goes out of the window !.

[Jumbo Clingfilm]

Integrated vs Modular makes little difference from what I've seen. Perhaps for easy & ryan it does?!?

My experience while working for a UK airline over the last 2 years was quite an eye opener. The Recruitment Captain would do an admin day in the office once every ten days. His way of sifting through the mountain of CVs was to take the top half and drop them in the bin! The bottom half was then reduced by removing everybody over 40yrs. He then removed any that couldn't write a properly constructed covering letter. Anything over 2 pages was binned also.

Having spoken to numerous people who flew with the company it seemed a combination of things provides the winning formula. Hours, personality, team players and also being prepared to go beyond the minimum required. I know of some integrated Oxford students who got rejected two or three times.

[Send Clowns]

Not for Easy or Ryan. They just want to make the money out of you, don't care about where you came from. I know people in both who I trained or was trained with on modular courses. Do a modular, then a JOC is the way into Easy. Pull your trousers down and bend over for MOL is the way into RyanAir, and pay for the pleasure.