Some words of advice (hopefully) to wannabes at all levels...

[Puritan]

Some words of advice (hopefully) to wannabes at all levels …..

1). Jobs versus experience.

Empirically there are, at present, more pilots (please select which of the following categories you fall in to) with: The Basic fATPL (it being the very least one needs to have prior to being able to apply for employment).
Low hours per se and/or a modest number of hours on a type that is not pertinent to airline operations.
A jet type-rating but little or no experience on type.than there are jobs.

Aviation is somewhat of a cyclic business (with peaks & troughs typically every seven years) though quite where we are now is very much subject to crystal ball gazing and tealeaf reading.


2). Making applications.

Applying for employment as a pilot does not entitle one to a reply, and certainly not if you application was unsolicited, i.e. the airline has not advertised for applications, you just thought you’d send one in anyway on the off chance.

Replying to the hundreds, and/or thousands, of applications takes time and requires that somebody is assigned to the task and, ergo, that costs money; and airlines hate (neigh, loathe) spending money, unless they absolutely have to.

Do not feel diss’d just because you don’t get a reply to your CV from an airline that is not recruiting.


3). Who you know.

Having a friend who works within an airline is perhaps the best way to move your CV to the top of the pile.

That’s not to say that not knowing anybody makes it impossible – it just makes it harder.

Remember also that this is perhaps the biggest and hardest ‘old boys (&girls) club’ that it’s possible to join – indeed it’s probably easier to join the Masons/Lodge.


4). Keeping current.

Keeping current is important, but however that does not mean hiring a C150 from your local flying club and doing a few half-hearted aerobatics and/or a trip down the coast for an hour or so.

Needless to say (but I will) if you are not regularly practicing the privileges of your IR your instrument flying skills will soon get rusty and, when one does finally get a break, you can be pretty sure that an airline assessment will involve a sim check. :eek:

To stand any chance in a simulator assessment you’d be well advised to have spent time keeping your instrument scan up-to-speed as well as continuing to develop your skills (both piloting & CRM/multi-crew).

So, rather than spend a couple of hundred £$€’s hiring the proverbial spam-can, why not get together with your mates and hire a proper/real jet simulator (there are, I’m sure, plenty of PPRuNer pro-pilots who would be willing to help drive the sim panel for you).

Indeed, many moons ago, ‘Raw Data’ used to do just this (using the Trident sim up at Biggin Hill) wherein many of the people he helped are now gainfully employed & seasoned jet airline pilots.


5). Whether or not to buy a type rating?

Just remember, and say after me..... ”THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES WITH ANY OF IT!”


6). CV’s.

When you write a CV remember that we already know the following about you: You were born
You have a name
You probably live somewhere
Your piloting experience and ratings fit anywhere between having the a fresh off the press fATPL and/or low hours and/or a modest number of hours on a type that is not pertinent to airline operations, and/or a jet type-rating but little or no experience on type.
You’ll tell us that you’d make a super employee and will sell your soul to the devil to work for XYZ airline (you’ve got to sell your soul as that’s all you’ve got left after paying for all your training)
etcNow, and I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news if you don’t already know this, there are hundreds of folk out there who fit a similar description to the above, and who are chasing the same job as yourself.

So, you need something that will levitate your CV to the top of the pile (not withstanding any mates who already work within your targeted airline) – certainly so when you think that your present flying background and/or your ratings are not going to be of all that much interest to a bloke reading it (somebody who is probably a TRI/TRE/RETRE/etc with several thousand hours in his logbook).

You have to ask yourself “If I can’t differentiate my flying experience” (because that is what everybody else I’m competing with has too) “then what is it that I can do to promote myself?”…. if you can crack that then you’ve got it cracked! :ok:

Lastly on CV's, if you're using a mail-merge program then for gawds sake make sure that the Chief Pilots name is correct w.r.t. the airline you're applying to (go figure!), and you'd also be advised to keep your CV short (1 page is usually enough)!


7). At the end of the day.

There’s a lot of truth when people say that you should hang-on and don’t give up – wherein for many it was dogged termination, coupled with perseverance and staying power that saved their day.

However, on the flip-side, the harsh reality is that some people will never attain their ambition of becoming an airline pilot.

They will have spent their money (more than likely a lot of it too), they will have done the hard work and all the courses, they will have passed all the exams – they’re probably very creditable pilots – but that lucky break just does not come their way. :{

Nb. This is something that the training industry – from the bottom and upwards – are loathe to broadcast as, I’m sure you’ll understand, it’s bad for business. But it is, nonetheless, true. :uhoh:

So, might I invite one and all to remember some of the above points when you’re being tempted to purchase those rose-tinted glasses, you know the ones, they’re inscribed ‘You too can be an airline pilot… just sign here!’ :E


Finally, and all together now.....: ”THERE ARE NO GUARANTEES WITH ANY OF IT!”

[speed trend]

thanks for your time and your advice Puritan,
for myself I adhere to all you explain in your post, just one question:
you said "Aviation is somewhat of a cyclic business (with peaks & troughs typically every seven years)"
but since 10 years it seems that all the employment situation for the pilot have been deteriotated, so according to you when will be the next PEAK
:confused:

:ok:

[Puritan]

speed trend - Imho, the regular'ish cycle was somewhat upset by the events of 9/11.

Being open and honest about it, much of the above advice is attributable to my own Operations Director ( aka PPRuNe's hamrah (http://www.pprune.org/forums/search.php?s=&action=finduser&userid=3139) ), aka. a total aviation person of considerable experience - along with being an eminent PPRuNer ( though somewhat less an eminent crooner; sorry boss, couldn't resist ;) ) – and of which I hope I have succinctly ( albeit maybe a bit brutally ) reproduced the general tenet of his advice, wherein it's something often repeated at various wannabe seminars, of which I’m sure many attendees can attest.

[Propellerhead]

Before everyone starts going out to buy 6 ft lengths of rope, maybe I can give a slightly more positive slant on Puritan's post. Everything he says is true, however in my experience all the guys and girls I kept in touch with who were on my course (around 4 years ago) have now got airline jobs (or jobs they are happy in). It took some of them up to 2 years, but in my experience provided you are a strong candidate then eventually you will succeed.

Provided you have a strong training record (I don't mean first time passes at everything, but at least in a reasonable time frame, and a good final report), and you have GOOD CRM / PEOPLE SKILLS, then you should succeed eventually.

[Tinstaafl]

No, you're more likely to succeed. Eventually. But no guarantee.

Puritan has very accurately given the reality of our industry.

[shaablamm]

All to true.

I wish it was 2 to 4 yrs here in Australia. That would be the time you'd have to wait for a salary instructing job or a job in the bush driving a C206 around with smelly people on board.

Here it's alot more like 5 to 10 years before you can start paying back that loan. This has a tendency to make it a rich kids game and therefore the airlines arn't really getting a good cross section of talent. Only the cross section of the people who can afford it. It's a bit like going out and buying that rating on the 737 or Airbus just to make yourself that more employable. Fantastic if you can afford it. Lets just hope that the sim checks cut these guys and gals if they can't actually do the job. Would those airlines be willing to look at those that can't afford that rating and do it for them, like the ol' days. I think not, those days are gone.

Its a bit like working for free and I won't go there because thats been done to death all around the world yet it still happens. Its like a cancer in the industry.

Question.... how did it come about that the airlines in the UK no longer pay for LOFT/MCC courses? Now that too has been put back on the cost of a licence. Now little Johnny going to the flying school has to pay for all the flying, the theory to ATP std, the MCC (not cheap I believe) and possibly the rating. Very sad. Maybe you should pay the airline to let you fly it until you get 500 hrs on type. Sounds a bit like Formula 1 racing. I really feel sorry for the guy who is 18 and is hell bent on getting into an airline but the oldies can't afford it.

A rich kids job????

[Straightandlevel80kt]

Puritan

A good post, which I hope all will read and take heed of.

[pancho]

Puritan, I’m shocked, nay, horrified to hear that you condone canvassing! But do you not know that this will automatically disqualify you from selection! Can you be serious about this lack of honour among our airline selection committees! Are you really suggesting that there are senior heads of departments that would allow this sort of thing! Have you never read the warnings at the bottom of those adverts, especially AerLingus! Do you not realise that no respectable airline has ever allowed friends or family to be “eased through the system”!

Wait, hang on a minute, I just realised I need glasses (the Christian brothers must have been right!), that small print actually says, “canvassing WILL qualify”, you were correct all along…again!:ok:

[fly-half]

This is a great post and I go along with everything that Puritan started off saying. I would like to add to it with some advice of my own which I wish I had received when I first qualified.

I recommend finding any work in the aviation industry, preferably with an aircraft Operator. If you are fortunate, it can be a way in through the back door but even if that doesn't happen then it is something aviation-related on your CV. It can be invaluable experience and will be of great benefit to you as a pilot to know what goes on behind the scenes. Going back to Puritan's post, everyone has the same flying qualifications so it is difficult to stand out from the crowd. If you are working in the industry, you could give the positive impression that you are 'prepared to get your hands dirty'. It is also a great way to network amongst people in the industry and you never know who the people you meet will know.

After I qualified I lived in hope of that elusive 'lucky break' and spent a lot of time staying at home writing letters and sending my CV and making phone calls. But I was unemployed and it just didn't look good after a while. After 4 months I realised I should try and beef up my CV with something worthwhile and looked at any work in the aviation industry. I was about to start working as a baggage handler when I was lucky to get a job in Operations for an airline. I have worked for them for the summer and have enjoyed it very much and it has paid off because I passed a recruitment selection and I start a training course in the new year!

So as a summary in my opinion, the benefits of working in the aviation industry in another role are :

1. Excellent experience for yourself as a pilot later on.
2. Something worthwhile on your CV.
3. The chance to participate in an Operator's internal pilot recruitment.
4. Excellent networking opportunities.
5. You give yourself a greater chance of being 'in the right place at the right time'.

[Veryex-pilot]

Hi there! I've literally just registered and this is my first post to a forum, or whatever you call this sort of thing!

I read with interest the posts regarding the chances of getting work in the aviation industry, and have to agree with Puritan.

I saved for years to build up my flying experience, and then spent a year in the US getting all sorts of qualifications (CPL/IR/CFI/blah blahblah...), then hours built up to 800 TT and then came back to the UK to get my CPL. Unfortunately for me, this was around the time of the first Gulf War - the fall-out from that particular campaign was possibly worse than the more recent one, and there was more chance of me becoming a ballet star in the bolshoi than getting a job for an airline. I sent out CV's to about 600 companies, contacted people who privately owned twin engine aircraft offering my free services, spoke to many London Embassies (the Peruvian embassador seemed quite receptive for a while!) and my last ditch attempt to get work involved heading down to Zimbabwe. Of course, when I got there, there was no work. I ended up flying backpackers round the game reserves for a while, sharing the costs - my money soon ran out and it was time to head back to the UK, give up my dreams of following in my father's footsteps, and go to university to study IT.


Well, 10 years further down the line, and here I am - working as a consultant for a Dutch bank - I've long since cleared off the considerable debts I incurred whilst training to be a pilot, hours building and trying to keep current. My enthusiasm for flying is now channelled into paragliding...a far more affordable past-time, but also fraught with frustration (in this case caused by lack of good weather in this country!).

To summise, getting a job in flying is 50% luck, 40% timing (if I had qualified between 1987-90 instead of 91, then I would probably be flying now) and 10% who you know. Maybe I should also squeeze in 2% for talent, but at my cinical time of life, I don't really think it counts for much!

I wish anyone who is trying to get onto the first rung of this career ladder all the luck in the world - you'll certainly need it!

[GlueBall]

And your CV should consist of only one (1) page, and scanned...so as to be attached to and sent via E-mail. :ooh:

[b025053]

It still doesnt motivate a guy with 40hrs, £8K CDL (Training Provider went bust with CDL) at 23 into the frame of mind of continued training.

I am not a rich kid, I dont have wealthy parents, I dont have a house, I just about have a car:rolleyes:

I have a HIGH GAPAN, a class 1 and a deflated sense of self belief in respect to something I always wanted.

Will folk such as myself be screened out of the future crop for airlines in favour of those who could afford it. The social diversity of crews will become fairly laminar?

Sorry, I dont want to hijack the thread with a winge:hmm:

[offspring]

Its good to get advice form people in the know but in my experience an impressive CV means not a jot.

I have been flying commercially for 4 years and have found that I am well and truly stuck in GA.

I trained full time using the modular route, 100hrs to CPL and ATPLs passed in just 7 months.

I have been in a flying job since the day my licence arrived and have accrued 3000hrs TT of which 2000hrs is multi engine command single crew IFR. Flying has been Air Taxi, Air Ambulance, VIP Charter and 1000hrs of Police flying. It has been shear grit and determination to remain in work all this time and to get a logbook full of quality flying.

I have submitted over 70 applications to airlines in the last 12 months and have not been offered even an interview.

What makes matters worse is these airlines have recruited guys with less than 300 hrs in their logbook.

It seems a proven track record, excellent safety record, experience, maturity and a demonstrated determination count for nothing with the recruitment teams.

Or am i wrong?

[empacher48]

Fantastic post. I myself was once green around the ears, fresh out of training here in little old NZ. But through sheer doggedness I managed to crack my first job in the industry flying punters around the Mt Cook National Park.

It does help to know people (I got my interview because of it), and put yourself in their face on a regular basis. Finally just hang in there most people will get their break sometime, and if you're anything like me - get three offers at once and then you can get picky!

[pilotbear]

When I got my CPL etc. I did an instructor rating straight away so I could be current and worked at getting to teach IMC then IR. That keeps you on your toes.
70% of my students have got airline jobs over the past year, I got a job flying Air Taxi for a while but have a couple of openings elsewhere hopefully.
I can always go back to CPL/IR instruction and the pay is not that bad at a good school £30,000:ok:

[Susheel]

Hey,

U guys have got a good topic going here. I have just started a CV for a cadet pilots course thats paid for by the airline...downside..... bonded for what seems like eternity!


Just to get a heads-up...if anyone could spare me a copy of their CV or Resume as a reference it would be bloody awsome. Cheers for that!

[737oli]

Puritan you are true, but wannabe don't have to forget that if they want to learn different languages, it will increase the chance to get an interview. Not in England, because everybody in the world speak English, but everywhere else in Europe. France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Spain...

737 Oli

[Danny]

Just to give you some perspective, I'm not a little rich boy and couldn't afford to do my commercial licence until I was in my mid-30's and had accrued enough assets to remortgage my home to pay for my training. When I did, pre-JAA, I did it as cheaply as I could including correspondence courses for the writtens and local flying school for flight tests.

Qualified when I was 36 and got first job when I was 38 in 1994. In the two years between qualifying and starting the first job and subsequently over the years as I decided to move up the employment ladder I have applied to many companies. In fact, apart from my present company, where I finish in less than two weeks, I have had rejection letters from every company I have ever worked for.

If there's anything to be learnt from my experience is that a rejection letter today has no bearing on tomorrow. What is important is that you maintain a proper perspective and cultivate good contacts. No one told you it would be easy and as some of you are discovering, it is even harder than you may have been led to expect. For every opening that appears for a wannabe there will probably be at least 200 applicants with similar experience and background as yourselves.

So, with that in mind you have to develop a strategy that makes you stand out from the crowd. Make sure your flying skills don't waste away. Make sure you have the personality and fortitude to tough out the bad times and also the personality and fortitude to endear yourself to the recruiters when opportunity strikes.

It's a bit like natural selection, the fittest (not just physical) will survive. Never give up and make those all important contacts. A one page CV should not be beyond the capabilities of any of you, especially one where all the relevant information stands out. If you have to ask how to do it then you are already behind the pack. The answers are all available here on PPRuNe if you know how to look.

[Susheel]

Capt. pprune,

Your quite right about me being back behind the que......but what i would consider most important is learning from others as how not to stuff up. Cheers for the advice and i would take it seriously thanks.


Cheers

[pilotbear]

Actually the same happened to me recently, I kept applying for on a monthly basis to companies that I had rejection letters for over the past two years , then this month I have had three phone calls for interviews and have probably got one of them.
( it shows that persistance pays as was stated at one of them)

The market is definately on the up so keep at it
:ok:

[redsnail]

I got the call from the company I wanted to work for. I got the job. They even paid for my type rating.

[AIRWAY]

G'day Reddo,

And that's the way it should be :ok: Luckly there is still some sane companies around but im afraid it's not many, but "hope" is always the last thing to fade :O just have to keep battling on.

Regards,
Airway

[Kanu]

Fantastic account Puritan.

I think I already knew it deap down but to read that, brought it home nicely. I've already left a career in IT behind to pursue this seemingly hopeless goal. No turning back for me though, so it’s either a job or that 6ft length of rope somebody mentioned a few posts back.

Time is ticking on for me now. My whole working life has been geared around earning enough money to eventually fund myself through the ATPL. Its good that I have a skill to fall back on, but it’s a skill that I didn’t enjoy and never really wanted. It’s taken me 9 years to get this far and I’d be kicking myself for the rest of my life if I turned back without trying.

Either way I shall continue on with the same attitude with which I approach the incredibly frustrating sport of golf… “**** or bust”


EDIT: just read that back to myself and it sounds a little like I'm having a pop. I'm not, just posting that cheered me up slightly:oh:

[10002level]

When I started my training in the late 1980s there were jobs for everyone with airlines contacting flying schools for details of anyone coming up to 700 hours. However, things did not last and by the time I managed to get my BCPL issued, the jobs had gone and I couldn't even get an instructor position in order to build my hours up.

However, eventually I managed to get my foot through the door at a local school and slowly added to my experience until I had the magical 700 hours for the issue of a CPL and I went on to complete my IR. I was now in the position of being employable, but with no relevant experience and in a market where there were many people with more experience chasing up the few openings that became available. I applied to everyone both at home and overseas, but despite to numerous letters that I had "putting me on file", for those that could be bothered to reply, I never gave up.

Eventually, I got my first proper job in 1997, three years after gaining my CPL I/R (frozen ATPL) on a corporate turboprop in the RHS. For various reasons I hated the job (believe me, CRM is really really important and when someone insults and swears at you at every given opportunity, your life is hell). However, I stuck at it, watched my hours build up and 5 months later I got a position with a regional airline.

The point I am trying to put across is that you should never give up. I have seen lots of people enter into training, but not complete their ambition. I remember having a BCPL course booked to start on the Monday morning and on the preceding Thursday my bank turned me down for a £3,000 loan. But I found the money on the Friday. There is always a way. Never give up, and write to everyone. When you have little experience, unless you know someone in a position to help you, it comes down to luck. One day your cv will land on someone's desk and you will strike lucky. Phone everyone, and if one day the person says that the company does not accept phone calls about recruiting pilots, call the next and perhaps you will get someone else answering the phone who put you through. Write again to the airlines who you wrote to last month. Your enthusiasm will eventually make its mark. The job will not find you, but you will find the job.

[freightdoggy]

I have read through this thread and it says it all. I have finalized my flighttraining 3.5 years ago now and my 1000hrs (800hrs ME MP) have as yet not brought me far. I fully recognize the frustration of 200hrs ab initio pilots being hired ahead of me, just because they attended the "right" flightschool....:*

Also I was 25 was I finished training and realized that my CV didn't look like much if I was going to sit an wait for that airline job. Right now, I worked my way up to a ground ops instructor job with a 747 freighter company. It does two things for me. It makes me financially independend from that pilot job and it gave me loads of experience and a very short time. CRM is not only valid in the cockpit...... I can tell that the way you have to communicate during instruction poses quite a few challenges.

Anyway, I am still working on the cockpit job. I guess we are like pitbulls, once we sink out teeth in it, we don't let go....;)

Good luck to all of you!

[Captlucky]

To all of you wannabees, I wish you the best of luck. I am the victim of the mandatory 60 age limit retirement here in the US. I must say that my last 18 years of commercial airline flying has been the most enjoyable years of my life. It took me many years, a lot of hard work and personal sacrafice to get that job. Would I do it again, you bet. Keep dogging those airlines with your applications, sooner or later someone will listen to you. God Bless and take care.

[captwilga]

Many moons ago I ,at great expense and hardship, I managed to get a Canadian ATR and with 120 hrs on DC3s up in the Artic,contacted British Airways(then known as BEA and BOAC) as I had heard they were hiring. No we don't hire from abroad I was told, -so with just enough dosh in the kitty for 1 one way ticket for my new wife and a return for me I set off. On arrival I contacted both airlines again by phone ,only to be told that all interview slots were already full etc. and there was no chance. The next day on returning from a successful interview to fly Aztec air taxis for 30 p a year (well it was ajob!) I was greeted by one telegram(remember them!) and a phone message inviting me to interviews on the same day at LHR, one AM, t'other PM. Both companies offered me jobs and I was able to negotiate the base and type I wanted and the rest is history. Yes, the 19 years to command was a bad joke but we did have Chernobyl and the Gulf war,BUT on the up side we were never laid off or had our pay reduced and the company was a good employer. There is ALWAYS a way if you are determined enough, prepared to go anywhere to get a job and stick at it once you've got it.Plus ca change as the French say, the survivors out amongst you will always make it but the world is full of nay sayers and hopeless optimists. I wish all of you who read this good luck and don't ever give up. And if any of you are interested in joining me as a flying partner in my banner towing business in Surrey get in touch!

[piperindian]

getting a JAR fATPL is the worst mistake i have ever done, i graduated a few months before 9/11.
I know many many people who have thrown the gauntlet after obtaining a JAR fATPL. I dont see those guys stories here.
the only positive aspect is that it made me a better pilot but IT REALLY WAS NOT WORTH THE EXPENSE or the fuss (especially the JAR ATPL theory).
It is also expensive to stay current once you graduated, especially the ME/IR part.
if i had to do it again i would have kept a PPL/IR and not gone any further.
I am not ready to pay a further 10K-15K for a type rating which leads nowhere most of the time.
The airline slots are really far and between, even for experienced pilots. low-timers dont get any chance in the current conditions.