PDA

View Full Version : Night Instruction vs Flying at night


FlyingForFun
11th Oct 2004, 20:54
I have a Flying Instructor rating, which includes a No Night Instruction restriction, and a No Applied Instrument Instruction restriction.

First of all, can we all agree that the instrument restriction does not prevent me instructing in IMC? Examples of when I may do this would be to get on top of an overcast to carry out a lesson in visual conditions on top, or to take a student into IMC as part of the introduction to instruments (ex 19) (after having given adequate training on the use of the instruments in visual conditions first, of course). However, it does prevent me from giving instruction to students who are training towards in instrument qualification (either IMC rating or IR).

So, if that's the case, does the same apply to the night restriction? I obviously can't give instruction towards a Night Qualification, but can I instruct at night? Examples of when I might want to do this would be a PPL who already has a Night Rating or a Night Qualification, but wants to fly with an instructor to get current again at the start of the night flying season. Or a student who is having a lesson towards the end of the day - the lesson is completed before night, but the transit from the practice area back to the airfield takes me into official night. Are either of these situations legal?

Simple comparison with the instrument restriction would suggest that they are legal. But the use of the word "applied" in the instrument restriction, and the lack of it in the night restriction, has raised a doubt in my mind, and I can't find any reference in any official documents.

FFF
--------------

DFC
11th Oct 2004, 21:11
You can not instruct for night flying.

This means that as you already said, if a PPL student's flight lands after night begins, that part of the flight during night time was not an instructional flight and the student was a passenger. Being a passenger flight you can not be paid and the passenger can not log the flight time to count towards any licence or rating.

With that in mind I expect that you will not plan to remain airbourne after night time and fly for free (pay for the aircraft?) but you would only do it when an unplanned circumstance caused you to be airbourne after night begins..........but I bet if it became a regular thing your RTF or FTO would be a little miffed at you freloading with their aircraft time and fuel.

As for people with night qualifications but not the curency - if they are IR holders then they can legally carry you as a passenger. You can not be paid but you could offer some advice which can quite legally be ignored by the pilot.

For people with just the basic night qualification and no IR - if they have not done the required take-off and landing - you can not be a passenger and your licence says you can not be an instructor. What you can however do is pay for or share the costs of the aircraft and act as pilot in command while your passenger "manipulates the controls" in order to gain the required take-off and landing(s).

As an instructor you should have no problems with a well briefed passenger flying the aircraft........but you may not be happy having to pay for the privelage.

Remember that flying actual IFR from the right seat is not as easy as you think and trying to scan cross cockpit without some practice can cause disorientation.

Regards,

DFC

BEagle
11th Oct 2004, 21:17
No you can't. The restriction refers to any instruction at night, not just for a Night Qualification. See LASORS.

However, removal of the restriction is far less onerous than removal of the No Applied Instrument restriction.

UV
12th Oct 2004, 02:01
DFC:

If he hasnt got a current night rating and you havent got a Night Instructors rating then what on earth does this mean?!

"What you can however do is pay for or share the costs of the aircraft and act as pilot in command while your passenger "manipulates the controls" in order to gain the required take-off and landing(s)."

UV

FlyingForFun
12th Oct 2004, 09:24
BEagle/DFC - thanks for the confirmation. I thought that may be the case, but was thrown by the analagy with instrument flying where I am allowed to instruct in IMC, and hoped that this analagy might be my get-out clause!

(The reason I asked is because I have a student who wants to fly with me to regain his night currency, and he's booked himself in earlier than I expect to get around to doing the very short course to remove the restriction. I shall have to re-book him for a later date.)

UV - DFC is refering to the case where the student does have a Night Qualification, and simply needs to do one night circuit before he can carry passengers. However, DFC, I thought that the take-offs and landings for currency (whether day or night currency) had to be logged in some way by the pilot concerned? Which would preclude the option of me being PIC and the "student" acting as pax but handling the controls? This is purely theoretical now, because I have no intention of going down this route - I just want to clear up any misunderstanding I may have of the rules!

FFF
---------------

BEagle
12th Oct 2004, 10:37
Either you would either be the passenger of someone who was out of Night Recency (and would thus be operating outside the privileges of his licence) - or you would be conducting flight instruction at night contrary to the restrictions of your instructor rating.

homeguard
12th Oct 2004, 12:21
If the Pilot holds a Night Rating/Qualification but is not current within the 90 days he is only restricted from carrying passengers. He may become current by doing a circuit solo.

DFC
12th Oct 2004, 14:14
Flying For Fun,

Yes the "Passenger would have to log the flight" to keep a record. However the entry in their log book would record the usual place and time of departure and place and time of arrival as well as the number of take-off's and landings that this person completed as "sole manipulator of the controls". Make a note in the remarks column about what was completed.

Note that nothing is entered in any of the P1 or Dual or any other column............the only thing they get out of the flight time is the manipulation of the controls and the required take-off and landing they do not log any "flight time".

Beagle,

I would not regard this as night instruction because as can be seen from the abover no instruction has taken place and no instructionis recorded either.

Obvously the best practice is to fly with a qualified instructor in the circumstance described.

However, the "passenger" flight described is a whole lot safer than the pilot who lacks currency going solo in the hope that the only person the injure in a mishap is themselves.

And if this instructor is willing to give their time for free and pay atleast half of the aircraft costs then.........hey they are unusual in this day and age and deserve a break! ;)

Regards,

DFC

BEagle
13th Oct 2004, 07:27
Nope. If the pilot isn't judged safe enough to regain recency with a solo night flight, then recency must be regained by flying with an instructor. The pilot will thus receive de facto instruction at night; hence the instructor must be appropriately qualified.

Vortex Thing
19th Oct 2004, 11:24
Beags

If, as is quite often the case with many instructors nowadays the instructor has an IR (current).

Wouldn't FFF then be able to be RHS PIC for someone already holding a Night qual or rating (licence dependant) whilst he/she (stude) fulfilled the requirement in order to regain night currency again?

Failing that FFF if you do not have an IR it costs about £200 to get your no night restriction lifted from your licence and can be done in 2 nights fairly easily by a suitably qualified FIC instructor or better.

BEagle
19th Oct 2004, 13:24
No.

FlyingForFun
19th Oct 2004, 19:03
Vortex,

I don't believe having an IR makes any difference at all. The only difference it would make would be to my own night currency requirements... there would be no need for me to have done a night circuit within 90 days to carry pax at night if I had an IR, but that doesn't help me at all in this scenario.

In any case, I don't have an IR. I have now booked myself onto the extremely costly and lengthy course to become a night instructor. ;) But I haven't been able to arrange that to happen before this student was hoping to fly with me, so I've had to make alternative arrangements for him.

FFF
--------------

Whopity
31st Oct 2004, 11:22
"Yes the "Passenger would have to log the flight" to keep a record. However the entry in their log book would record the usual place and time of departure and place and time of arrival as well as the number of take-off's and landings that this person completed as "sole manipulator of the controls". Make a note in the remarks column about what was completed."

If the "passenger" did this, the other person in the aeroplane would now be the passenger, rendering the flight illegal! If the other person is an instructor qualified to give night instruction then it would be logged as DUAL!

The giving of instrument instruction is interesting, under national rules a FI could give instruction for the basic IF exercises on an IMC course but not for instrument approaches (applied IF) Under JAR-FCL it is little different. A CPL instructor does not have to have the applied IF restriction removed i.e. in JAA terminology he does not have to be a IRI. However, he has not been taught to teach instrument approaches or limited panel and so cannot teach these skills.

No instruction for any part of the IR can be given by a person who has not had the applied IF restriction removed because they would not be qualified to be employed in a FTO conducting such instruction.

G-SPOTs Lost
31st Oct 2004, 21:39
Beags is bang on.

Night Instruction/Night checkouts - to be done by people who are qualified to teach at night i.e. done the one hour flight with an fic instructor!!!

I teach IMC and since the lesser requirements for instrument flying for the present day PPL kicked in, I have been really struggling getting people through the IMC course in 15hrs.

I therefore ask one of the "Normal" instructors to fly with the IMC candidates for 4/5 hours logging purely ex 19 climbs and descents onto selected headings under the hood. Quite often these flights will take the aircraft into IMC conditions with the student being totally oblivious to that fact. All legal subject to the instructor having a instrument qualification and are deemed captain

All this tosh about manipulation of the controls is just that.

If somebody needs a night checkout because they are outside the 90 days they get a flight with a night qualified instructor and log it dual they have NO CHOICE about it

Its the same arguement about P1/P1s/P/U.T., the acid test when asked by a student about how they are to log time is purely and simply "are you acting within the remit of your license?" yes - P1 no - Dual (P/U.T.)

A good example is when flying clubs have a more restrictive policy such as a 28 night currency rule. That is to say that to hire an aircraft solo they must have flown night solo within 28 days, if they do meet the currency requirement but not the club requirement then a "28 Day check" does not need to be logged as P/U.T.

Just my £0.02 's worth

FFF are you currently flying cessnas with a yorkshire accent??????

FlyingForFun
2nd Nov 2004, 13:38
FFF are you currently flying cessnas with a yorkshire accent??????Yes - two of them. One very nice C152 which is a joy to fly. And one really nasty C172 which I can't wait to see the back of!

FFF
-----------