Internship scheme I'm considering

[scameron77]

Just looking for a bit of long in the tooth intelligence from those who have done it before to be honest,

Just kinda been offered a place on an internship program, 6 weeks in the UK getting my PPL then 2 years in the States getting both JAA and FAA APTL's. I'll be instructing so will unfreeze them at the end of the 2 years.

Now payment, from reading the thread on Cardiff and doing quite considerable research on here I've kept on seeing the 'don't pay up front' milarky come up again and again.

I have been advised that for my course I will pay my fees into a special account that is used a lot in the US and only just starting out over here. An ESCROW account, its essentially a joint account that requires two signatories to move money about, myself and the flying school. The money can only go one way when both parties decide its OK.

I asked the flying school if it woudl be possible to desposit using my credit card, as I get a degree of protection from it, I was told yes if I was willing to pay the 3.9% handling charge.

My question is, how does this sound? Has anyone ever had any dealings with these accounts in the past? Any pitfalls? Anything I shoudl ask the flying school for in writing beforehand? IF I payed my cash into the account by credit card would it be covered by the credit card insurance? etc.

Cardiff going tits up has made me a little jumpy.

ALSO: Anyone selling Oxford PPL CD ROM's? PM me please

Thanks in advance,

Stephen

[silverknapper]

Never used them mate but would make a couple of points in case it helps:
-3.9% handling seems very steep - ask them to justify this, I could understand maybe 2% tops, that seems like a bit of a rip off.
-Don't think you can pay cash into an account by card (cc cheques excepted). But if you even did that would only cover the account holder going under. Card companies only cover the first port of call for your hard earned.
Gut feeling is just don't bother with the hassle. Why not pay as you go - any respectable school will allow this. If they don't - ask why!!

Searching prune will show many more examples of people being done over by schools - a girl recently gave a school in SA over 8k apparently before she even arrived. Needless to say no-one met her off the plane when she arrived!! Don't let it happen to you.

SK

[scameron77]

Folks,

This is VERY important, I found the following on the web, as you can see it covers California (for my purposes) and Florida for a vast number of other PPRuNer's out there.

****************************************************

Credit card surcharges and cash discounts

In some states the customer can be assessed a surcharge for using a credit card. However, there are laws against credit card surcharges in CA, CO, CT, FL, KS, MA, ME, NY, OK and TX. Additionally, Visa and MasterCard prohibit surcharges. American Express discourages them in general, and prohibits merchants from charging them if they also accept MasterCard or Visa. Discover allows surcharges on credit card purchases except in the above states. According to Bankcard Holders of America, there is one exception to the no surcharge law. If you pay state license fees by credit card, you may have to pay a surcharge. There are no exceptions for retail merchants.


and in addition (because its pertinent to me)

TITLE 1.3. CREDIT CARDS
California Civil Code Section 1747-1748.7

1748.1. (a) No retailer in any sales, service, or lease transaction with a consumer may impose a surcharge on a cardholder who elects to use a credit card in lieu of payment by cash, check, or similar means. A retailer may, however, offer discounts for the purpose of inducing payment by cash, check, or other means not involving the use of a credit card, provided that the discount is offered to all prospective buyers

Sure there will be similar stuff relating to Florida out there.

Hope its ensured nobody gets ripped off.

Stephen

[WX Man]

How will you unfreeze your ATPL? To unfreeze a JAA ATPL, you need [something like] 500h multi crew, 100h night, 250h on a/c over 5700kg....

You might very well unfreeze your FAA ATPL by getting 1500h, but think about it. Also, don't pay any money up front. Ever. Ever ever ever.

[Chilli Monster]

You might very well unfreeze your FAA ATPL by getting 1500h
There's no such thing as 'unfreezing' an FAA ATPL. It's a separate exam from the CPL, it requires 1500hrs before you can get it and it requires a separate flight test.

[scameron77]

Right here is the brief, as a reletive novice I'd appreciate it those longer in the tooth to this whole business looked through this and advised ig there are any pitfalls associated with this scheme. But in the same way advised me of the benefits over other course this offers.

Stage 1 (UK)
JAR PPL in UK 6 weeks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stage 2 (US)
FAA Instrument Rating
FAA CPL, Multi, IR
FAA CPL SE add on 14 weeks

Stage 3 (US)
FAA Instructor Rating
FAA Instrument Instructor Rating
FAA Multi Engine Instructor Rating 8 weeks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stage 5 (US)
Instruction up to 800 hrs TT Month 7

Stage 6 (US)
Instruction to 1200 hrs TT
JAR ATPL Groundschool Module 1 Month 14

Stage 7 (US)
Instruction to 1500 hrs TT
JAR ATPL Groundschool Module 2 Month 20
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stage 8 (US)
FAA ATP
JAR convesion preparation course Month 26

Stage 9 (UK)
JAR ATPL Written Exams
JAR CPL Conversion
JAR IR Conversion Month 27

Accommodation is provided for the duration of the course.
During Stage 5, the intern is paid $10 per hour of billed instruction
During Stage 6, the intern is paid $12 per hour of billed instruction
During Stage 7, the intern is paid $15 per hour of billed instruction




The course price is £29,900

This covers:-
US Airport transfers
All books and materials
Accomodation in the United States.
Instruction, aircraft rental and testing in the United States
Instructor Uniform
JAR ATPL Groundschool course costs
ICAO to JAR CPL and IR conversion to the following maximums:-
CPL- Five hours training and testing in a single engine complex aircraft.
170A Test Fee
IR – 10 hours training in an FNPT 2. Seven hours training and testing in a multi-engine piston aircraft , 170A Test Fee.
VAT

What is not included:-
Visa processing fee
UK based accommodation
Aviation medicals
Flights to and from the United States
CAA professional license examination and licensing fees(PPL is incl. in price).
General living expenses.


Payment Schedule

£5,000 on acceptance onto the course.
£8,000 on beginning the UK module
£16,900 on start of course in the United States

[scameron77]

I've just posted the information below into another thread I started but on reflection I think it may be a better idea to do it seperately here, it'll get a lot more hit and hopefully advice for me.

As a relative novice I'd appreciate it if those longer in the tooth to this whole flying business looked through this and advised me if there are any pitfalls associated with this scheme. But in the same way advised me of the benefits over other courses this offers.

Stage 1 (UK)
JAR PPL in UK 6 weeks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stage 2 (US)
FAA Instrument Rating
FAA CPL, Multi, IR
FAA CPL SE add on 14 weeks

Stage 3 (US)
FAA Instructor Rating
FAA Instrument Instructor Rating
FAA Multi Engine Instructor Rating 8 weeks
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stage 5 (US)
Instruction up to 800 hrs TT Month 7

Stage 6 (US)
Instruction to 1200 hrs TT
JAR ATPL Groundschool Module 1 Month 14

Stage 7 (US)
Instruction to 1500 hrs TT
JAR ATPL Groundschool Module 2 Month 20
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stage 8 (US)
FAA ATP
JAR convesion preparation course Month 26

Stage 9 (UK)
JAR ATPL Written Exams
JAR CPL Conversion
JAR IR Conversion Month 27

Accommodation is provided for the duration of the course.
During Stage 5, the intern is paid $10 per hour of billed instruction
During Stage 6, the intern is paid $12 per hour of billed instruction
During Stage 7, the intern is paid $15 per hour of billed instruction


The course price is £29,900

This covers:-
US Airport transfers
All books and materials
Accomodation in the United States.
Instruction, aircraft rental and testing in the United States
Instructor Uniform
JAR ATPL Groundschool course costs
ICAO to JAR CPL and IR conversion to the following maximums:-
CPL- Five hours training and testing in a single engine complex aircraft.
170A Test Fee
IR – 10 hours training in an FNPT 2. Seven hours training and testing in a multi-engine piston aircraft , 170A Test Fee.
VAT

What is not included:-
Visa processing fee
UK based accommodation
Aviation medicals
Flights to and from the United States
CAA professional license examination and licensing fees(PPL is incl. in price).
General living expenses.

Payment Schedule

£5,000 on acceptance onto the course.
£8,000 on beginning the UK module
£16,900 on start of course in the United States

[YYZ]

A few PPL CD Rom here (http://search.ebay.co.uk/atpl_W0QQsoloctogZ3)

YYZ

[EINN]

What school is offering you this course?

[scameron77]

The question I asked related to the merits of the course, not who was offering it, I have checked the school out and went to visit the UK operation and found them very affible. What I'm really looking for is some hints to the course content from what they have given me.

Stephen

[EINN]

The only reason I asked is because Im searching for a school to complete my training in. If you don't want to tell me fine!

[daw]

Why not give the name of the school to get better response? I imagine there will be quite a few readers who are based in the US that may well know which FTO is and give you better feedback.

I haven't gone through the US system but here are my thoughts anyway (in no particular order and probably would cover just about any FTO you wanted to go through):-

1) are you guaranteed the instructor hours? How many students do they have at any time? You will need to check out the FAA rules about what and who an instructor can teach. Remembering of course that you presumably won't be able to teach multi engine students until you have the rating which will be when on the course timeline?

2) have you reviewed a copy of the training contract? Is there one? If so is point 1 adequately dealt with?

3) what happens if you fail a part of the course adn need to retake or it takes you longer to do a particular portion? have you factored in what sort of costs this might entail? I have heard that some FTO's set unrealistically high standards which preclude you from getting accepted as an instructor and therefore all you get is the training component which is generally at a higher price than what you could have gotten it elsewhere

4) multi hours are clearly of more value than single. Any guarantees of how many of those you will get from instructing eg: could be zero or there could be a hierachial structure of getting them where the local boys get preference etc.

5) what are the acceptance procedures for their internship? are there any or is it a matter of showing them the money? My guess would be it is automatic acceptance. So why pay £5,000 up front?

6) who is responsible for paying the JAA school for the PPL? You wouldn't want to be left in the position of said UK school partly training you and then finding out that US school decided not to show them the money. Happened before with lots of nasty things like arguments over release of training records etc so you can continue elsewhere.

7) on looking at your payment schedule I would be renegotiating it. to much risk involved in paying that way. Tell them that you will pay a week in advance via credit card instead and see if they are still keen for your business. if not ask them why a properly run school needs all the cash up front or are you just providing them with cashflow to keep them in business

8) what do you know about the quality of their training? can you talk to past students? failure rates? can you talk to present instructors and see what sort of hours they are getting? also mix between single and multi engine time.

9) are they registered on the CAA website for providing JAA training? If they are going through another UK registered FTO then what do you know about them and can you be sure that the relationship won't be terminated part way through thus leaving you high and dry in the US?

10) do you know the rules about recording of flight time and the difference between JAA and FAA. If not check them out and work out how many "valid hours" you will get in your JAA logbook - assuming you propose to work in the UK/Europe that is.

11) there have been some concerns raised in the past about the quality of training for the JAA IR in the US. As you probably know the IR test must be conducted back in Europe and some students have been failing and hence incurring significant retraining costs. Have you checked out this aspect? Talked to students who have passed the IR and gotten any feedback on the quality of the training you are likely to get?

12) the quality of ATPL groundschool can vary. Have you seen any examples of the notes/cd's etc? Are they using someone like BGS?

13) on a more personal level, how much extra cash do you have budgeted? There will always be additional costs that you don't budget for. Generally the books and materials included will be the minimum to get by and you will want to supplement it. Most of us doing our ATPL's tend to buy for example additional study materials. Perhaps OAT's MET or the Rolls Royce book on jet engines as just 2 examples. Some people have book shelves full of additional reading material. Each to their own! Other things that spring to mind eg:bike or car to and from school, personal insurances (in the air and for belongings), will you be happy with presumably the shared accomodation that the school provides or are you fussy? In which case upgrade and pay more.

In summary looks like the usual US training deal you read about on here. You are effectively paying a premium for training than what a US citizen would and then working possibly at a reduced rate. The school has you over a barrel though as you need the JAA CPL and IR which are always back end loaded on these courses. Take some time to call up or surf your average US FTO and see what they charge for each of the components for the FAA training and then factor in the conversions to JAA and see if it is such a good deal.

Finally ask yourself a question. If you wanted to leave at any point during the course for whatever reason, would you be able to without and financial loss. If the answer is no then .......good luck.

Hope the rambling helps a bit. Let us know how you get on.

[G-DANM]

Without a reply from scameron77 I would say that is the EFT Airline Pilot Programme in Fort Pierce, Florida. In which case if you are good enough to complete their integrated course you are offered employment as an instructor for them for about a year where you earn around 1000 hours (instructional) on various types and in return are renumerated for your training costs.

[scameron77]

Sorry folks, I wasn't being deliberatly obtuse or trying to protect my back, I just didn't know why the school mattered to much to the course content, I'm more than happy to tell you that its Angel City Flyers Inc. (based in Long Beach, California) and the UK side of things is with Enstone Flying Club (Angel City Flyers Ltd.)

EINN sorry if there was any offence caused. On reading my previous post I suppose it could be argued it wasn't very well put, however thats wasn't the intention.

DAW cheers chief, thats exactly the sort of thing I require

G-DANM No cigaroooni I'm afraid

Also, they won't be offering another internship program until March next year I was told. However ACF in Long Beach is open for business as a FTO.

[Chilli Monster]

Scameron

I did my Commercial and instrument (all multi) with ACF earlier this year. You won't get better instruction, and knowing the 'main man' you won't get led down the garden path.

If you want to discuss more feel free to PM me.

[scameron77]

I've just hear back from them with respect to the payment schedule, it better than I originally thought.

Beginning UK PPL 2,000 2,000
15 hrs 2,000* 4,000
30 hrs 2,000* 6,000
40 hrs 2,000* 8,000
50 hrs (US) 2,000 10,000
75 hrs (US) 2,000 12,000
100 hrs (US) 2,000 14,000
Instrument Rating (US)2,000 16,000
Multi Engine Rating 2,000 18,000
200 hrs (US) 2,000 20,000
CPL/Multi/SE/IR 4,000 24,000
MEI 2,400 26,400
SE FI add on 1,750 28,150
Instrument FI add on 1,750 29,900