NCO Aircrew

[flash8]

I apologize if I am repeating a thread but couldn't find my answer searching.

What percentage of NCO aircrew are ultimately commissioned?

Is is much higher than NCO's in other branches?

Cheers

[Door Slider]

The NCO branches have recently changed.
The correct title is now NCA being Non Commissioned Aircrew.
Under the Manning review the Air Force decided to scrap commissioned rear crew.
As a result, no one will be commissioned unless you change to a ground branch or manage to transfer to Pilot.
This sucks!!!

[The Swinging Monkey]

Slider,

What about the WSO/Nav courses still going thru' Cranners? They are all commisssioned, or are you only reffering to those back enders already in?

Kind regards
The swinging Monkey

[Door Slider]

Yes your correct, you can go for a commission as Pilot or WSO but as NCA WSop. (WSop being the old ALM, Eng, AEop and AS) you cant.

[J.A.F.O.]

So, let me get this straight.

A WSOp down the back of a Nimrod can't then become a WSO?

Where do, what were, AEOs come from then?

An Eng on the flight deck of a Herc can't apply for a commission?

Where does his boss come from?

Same question for loadies.

Are you seriously saying that what were NCO Aircrew cannot now apply for commissions within their trade/branch?

[grousehunter]

This is what I have been led to believe:

If you are WSOp (or Aeop, LM, Air Eng) you can no longer apply for a commision as an AEO (or WSO(AE)) however you can apply to become a Pilot, or a WSO (Navigator), or any other ground commision depending on qualifications etc.

Hope that helps!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

J.A.F.O,
All you refer is no longer. Once those unfortunate commisioned folks you refer to are " life-ex" their posts will be filled by Master Aircrew Ranks.................cost saving excercise:mad:

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[J.A.F.O.]

Always broken and GH

Thanks for your replies, what a bloody world this is, as if there weren't enough things to p1ss a knocker off.

It's going to get very expensive to supply one MAEOp per Nimrod, just to keep the sun off the tac navs screen; at least Fg Offs and junior Flt Lts came cheap.

Ah well, thank the Lord I left it all behind; Band 6, no time promotion and now no chance to defect to the other side.

[richlear]

So that is the end of AE skippers then?

[SirToppamHat]

Obviously not 'proper aircrew' in the traditional sense (helmet on, awaits incoming), but it is interesting that the FCs on the E-3D will continue to be a mix of officers and SNCOs.

I don't believe that there are any plans to have SNCO Tac Directors (TDs); I believe these are all sqn ldrs and senior fl lts, so the requirement for offr FCs to join the E-3Ds will continue (with the addition of the spare WSOs that have just started to be pushed through part of the FC trg programme).

Awaits correction from Magic Mushroom ...

[stuk]

In the long history of disinformation, rumour and waffle on PPRUNE this thread takes the biscuit.
Fact 1...There is no such thing a AEOp - they along with everyone else are WSOPs, with appropriate annotation.
Fact 2... There is no such thing as AEO or Nav. They are all WSOs with appropriate annotaion. Can't have a kipper was-AEO navigating a Herc around can we!
Fact 3...Any WSOp can apply for commision in whatever trade, or indeed profession for real aircrew, that he is suitably qualified for.
In essence nothing has changed.

[J.A.F.O.]

Thanks Stuk. I know the world's gone mad but I didn't think it had got that far, yet.

Still not sorry I left, though.

[Door Slider]

stuk,

You are quite correct with fact 1 and fact 2, nobody is disputing that.
However, a WSOp cannot be commisioned in that branch. He/she must transfer to Pilot, WSO or ground branch in order to gain a commission......FACT!!

[Facingrear]

Door Slider is quite correct...the possibility to commission within ones own branch, ie Air Eng, ALM, AEO, was with drawn as of 1st April 2003. No warning was given, ie "Last orders at Cranwell please", leaving many NCA frustrated and bewildered as to where their career was to lead now. However, with the on-set of the PA spine, those that have been lucky enough to be offered to join will surely agree that we are now better off than those unfortunate NCA that were commissioned within the branch pre- 1/4/03. Many of then had a career offer to age 55 previous to their 6 month trip to Cranwell but have now had the rug pulled from under them to be replaced, as has already been stated, by MACR.

[Roger the cabin boy]

Sorry guys, (and please excuse the "old money" terminology) whilst commissioning for ALM's and Eng's has ceased - at least until they realise their mistake - there will remain the requirement for commissioned Rearcrew (Up to 100ish) on the ISTAR fleet beyond 2020. And they will be a mix of Nav's and AEO's, so there will be limited opportunities for AEOp's to go to Cranwell. I mention 2020 because the aspiration is that all Officer ALM's and Eng's will have gone by then, although I suspect a few will still be knocking about.

With respect to MACR doing the job; that is not quite right, certainly not in our "Fighting-by-Flt" environment. They will be dealing with the tactical level stuff, as they always have, and very well too. But the Flt Cdr’s will do the higher-level management, if you are lucky. If you are unlucky, it'll be by done by a spotty Fg Off as an associated tertiary duty.

In short, I think you've been sold a pup.

Hey ho, fingers crossed, eh?

Roger, Out!

[betty_boo_x]

The Flt Cdrs have always/will always do the "higher level management",thats how it is now, and then "the boss" does the even higer level management,and then ..............well you know. In old money Eng/ALM can no longer be commissioned in their own trade, for career development they can either join the NCA PAS at IPP or get a blue blood transfusion in another trade. As for MAcr doing the job of the previosly commissioned "leaders",it is a straight cut and paste job,with a few Flt Lts heading for flying tours in Sgts PICs. With the advent of NCA PAS some of these people will be earning in excess of 50K so it is only reasonable that we "empower" them to a level of that salary. Or we could let the pimply Fg Off do the job and keep the high priced help on the golf course/down the pub. Sorry dont know about WSop(Air Sig) or WSop(AEop) specifics.
What would be the Fg Offs primary role if his/her "tertiary" role is looking after NCA?
Overall good move in my view,there has been a tradition of taking Oxygen under false pretences for years from some(not all) of some very highly paid desk jockeys with very respectable golf handicaps and unrespectable mental handicaps.

[Ginseng]

"Fact 2 - There is no such thing as an AEO or Nav".

Wrong!

There may not be any new ones, but I was trained as Nav and that is what I remain. I do not, and will not, wear a WSO brevet.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Bet you do:E ..........more importantly why would any forward thinking individual want to remuster to a dying trade...

Third time of reading and one salient fact needs pointing out..........Pilots rule and everyone else comes second.....or would anyone who is not a pilot like to argue.........

Hence the WSO............pay it less cos it aint as good and never will be and save a fortune in the long run!

Betty are you refering to the current "atmosphere hoover'. South Side?

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Dengue_Dude]

What a smashin' post.

I remember thinking on several occasions, that 'it don't come worse than this' and it always did.

I am SO pleased to see (mine is an ex) the Lords and Masters screwing everybody below them.

Does this mean that the guys at the sharp end still get Philips, Posidrive or Slotted uniforms?

It never ceases to amaze me what we do to our cheerful workforce.

Mind you this from a bunch of Whitehall warriors that sent us to war over a bunch of WMD - that happened just NOT to be there.

Why am I surprised?

Makes me glad I'm drawing my pension. Stick with it guys, and in the future compare this decision with the worse ones coming and think - just when I thought it couldn't get any worse.

Morale is to be found over there, just underneath the big box of Iraqi WMD.

Good luck lads, you know how the Pate in the 'de fois Gras' feels - AGAIN.

[Klingon]

What a masterful piece of self hacking this was! The project team had MACR aboard who were sworn to secrecy; whilst the rodneys were kept well away from the knocker briefings.

Promise of jam tomorrow through "empowerment" and a few pieces of filthy lucre really meant transfering all real policy and management to a very pilot centric core that can never understand the rear crew environment. I agree that there was something rotten in the old system that needed to be exorcised, CASWO in particular, but there are now a lot of really capable guys who are demotivated. Those with potential will soon realise that there is no future in taking crap management from junior officers who are using the NCA as a career step into the big boys shoes.

Been around for 35 years and not happy to see the this happen. Hope those that have had a hand in this dont use too much effort spending their PA pay.:yuk:

[betty_boo_x]

ABIW - not implicating anyone in particular,just trying to make a general point. "Southside" of where? Could be anyone and anyway as I said I'm not refering to any individual.
Now with the advent of NCA PAS some very highly paid MAcr could follow in the footsteps of previously commissioned "leaders" and take the proverbial. While numerous Flt Lt and a few Sqn Ldrs are under employed doing the job of a Sgt. With the future of Tristar,VC10,FSTA,C130K,MR4A,HC3 all far from certain,all I can forsee is everythings far from certain.