Single or Multi IR?

[kilobravo]

Hi Folks,

A small question for you who have been through it already;
Is it easier to do a single engine IR and then add ME rating to that IR afterwards, or is combining the two a better option.
I figured the workload for an IR is high enough without adding the difficulty of learning to flying a complex aircraft on top of it all. I am going to start my ATPL's and whish to structure my training in the right order when I start the CPL course proper. Any advice?
Thanks in advance
KB

[EGBKFLYER]

LASORS says to convert SE to ME means doing 5 hours multi IR flying, of which 3 hours can be in an FNPT 2. In addition, you must have an MEP class rating.

In addition, if you don't have a CPL, the SE IR is 50 hours and the ME is 55. (reduced to 50 for the ME if you have a CPL and 45 for the SE I presume).

So it sounds good so far - in which case why don't more people do it? For the following reasons I reckon:

1. You will have less multi time when you start job hunting. Sure, 20-30 hours isn't much, but it's better than about 15 (MEP rating plus conversion minimum). Every little helps probably.

2. Unless you're flying a potent (i.e. turbo, large, VP prop etc) single, climbing into an airway will be a pain. E.g. BCN eastbound on L9 might see you trying to get to FL90, by which time your average PA28 is getting pretty breathless. This means the possibility of en route holds to gain height etc etc. You do NOT need that on an IRT!

3. Although we want to minimise cost, we also want to gain professional skills. Being able to fly a faster, more complex aircraft well should be a goal - that is hopefully what people will pay you for eventually. I would argue more single time isn't necessarily contributing to that goal.

4. Actually, twins are not frightening/ impossible if you have a bit of experience with complex types and a good instructor. Most of the time, two engines are handled like 1 (i.e. together). When one gets taken from you, things get a bit more difficult but it isn't impossible to handle with practice and the right attitude (behaviour type not nose up/down type).

I share your opinion that the IR has enough in it without trying to learn to fly a twin at the same time (at commercial rates of around £300/h). My route was to get some experience on a complex single (an Arrow), to get comfortable with some more knots, dangly wheels and a wobbly prop. Then I did an MEP rating - so I could practice with more knots and another prop at a reasonable price with less pressure. Then I went and did the IR. Worked for me - maybe you could consider someting similar?

[kilobravo]

Thanks EGBKFLYER

I am getting a few differing opinions, good but confusing. My training school has only got a twin for a complex aircraft, which means doing my CPL test on a twin. I don't fancy the thoughts of doing my circuits during the test at 120kts!!!! Also at 400 euro/hr the cost is gonna go through the roof assuming I get comfortable with the twin in say 10hrs or so? I reckon CPL training in a 172, then complete the course in a S/E complex aircraft. I like your suggestion of getting comfortable with speed and complexity first and then doing the IR. I also fully agree with you that one's personal goal as a pilot should be to achieve the highest standards and therefore to be training up to one's max capability, however my approach was to simplify each step so that everything was done thoroughly and was well undestood/mastered, before going up a level.
Can you clarify this for me though? Someone told me that obtaining a ME/IR ment obtaining a new rating, by which I understood originally that it ment a lot more hours ie. 45hrs or so of instruction. I understand that single and multi are two different ratings but I thought it ment maybe 15hrs or so more of training;
10hrs ME class rating and min. 5hrs I/R ME.
Your route sounds wise,
Thanks for your reply.
KB

I just read six-sixty\'s post. All answers I was looking for are there!
Should have read that first. Thanks

[EGBKFLYER]

I think training is actually quite a personal thing. While getting opinions is definitely a good idea because it can help you crystallise your own thoughts, in the end it is your licence, your money and your time. You know yourself best and should pick a route that you think will give you success. If that means doing the C172/ complex SE, go for it. There are no particularly right or worng answers so long as you get to your goal in the end.

Best wishes

[Danny_at_FL370]

Just for my own curiousity,

do you NEED a ME-IR to start a type rating course, or you can just do a type rating with a CPL SE-IR...

[BillieBob]

JAR-FCL 1.250

(a) Pre-requisite conditions for training: An applicant for the first type rating for a multi- pilot aeroplane type shall:

(1) have at least 100 hours as pilot-in-command of aeroplanes;

(2) have a valid multi-engine instrument rating (A);

[Obs cop]

Danny,

If you want to fly a multi pilot multi engined type then Billiebob's response is correct.

However, there are a few single pilot single engined types that require a type rating eg. Cessna Caravan, Piper Meridian. (Unless I have found the wrong end of the stick!). The difficulty is that at the moment in the UK they are limited to VFR commercial operations only, but technically you could do one of their type ratings with a CPL and SE-IR.

Obs cop

[MEI]

Not sure if this helps but....

Another route may be to do it in a single in JAR land convert here to a multi then take that on your PPL status to the US to time build there in a twin.

You will fly 3 times the hours for the money and almost all instrutors there will fly with you for free. (not talking about florida), as they are logging as well.

Just an idea.

[Danny_at_FL370]

Thanks for the info. Just wanted to make sure. I have a valid ME-IR and some 1800 Hrs of ME flying. However, the ME-IR will expire next year. I'll most probably start a type rating course just before it'll expire (One month), so that should do the trick. Anyways, thanks again.

[IRRenewal]

One thing hasn't been mantioned yet.

If you start with a SE IR and want to convert it to a ME IR, you have to go to CAAFU again for a second test (and a second test fee!). You cannot 'add a ME rating to a SE IR', as kilobravo put it.

Cheers

Gerard

[Penworth]

Hi Gerard, that's what I thought was the case as well, but I looked at Lasors section E1.1 where it says:


SE IR(A) to ME IR(A)*:
a. 5 hours instrument time under instruction in
ME aeroplanes, which may include (b);
b. 3 hours in FNPT 2 or Flight Simulator if
approved by CAA.
* The holder of a SE IR(A) wishing to upgrade to ME
IR(A) shall hold a multi-engine type/class rating.

Does this not suggest a second flight test isn't required? Or have I got the wrong end of the stick?

PW

[IRRenewal]

PW,

You have to look at the test requirements in E1.4. E1.1 just deals with training requirements and doesn't mention the need to do a test at all. If the test for a ME IR 'shall be taken in a ME aeroplane' that means another trip to CAAFU.

Cheers,

Gerard

E1.4 IR(A) SKILL TEST REQUIREMENTS

An applicant for an IR(A) shall complete a Skill Test
in order to demonstrate the ability to perform the
procedures and manoeuvres as set out in
Appendices 1 & 2 to JAR-FCL 1.210, with a
degree of competency appropriate to the privileges
granted to the holder of an IR(A).

a. ME Aeroplanes - for a ME aeroplane
Instrument Rating, the test shall be taken in a
ME aeroplane;

b. SE Aeroplanes - for a SE aeroplane Instrument
Rating, the test shall be taken in a SE
aeroplane. A ME centreline thrust aeroplane
shall be considered a SE aeroplane for the
purposes of a SE aeroplane IR.

[LFS]

To upgrade from a SE IR to a M/e IR you will have to sit a second full initial IR test in the M/E aircraft following a minimum 5 hour M/E training course.

[Penworth]

Ah thanks guys, that clears that up :ok:

[WD40]

It's not quite as bad as doing the complete test again - the upgrade test doesn't include the general handling or the enroute sections. You would need to do a 'departure' (which might be straight into the hold!), hold, two approaches (one asymmetric) and EFATO.

[kala87]

I would echo the comments already posted, to the effect that flying a twin need not be as daunting as you first think, with a good instructor. If you have a choice of aircraft, IMHO the Beech BE76 Duchess is a much nicer and more docile twin to handle than a Seneca, especially with an engine out, and is also easier to land, requiring less back pressure on the controls to achieve a smooth arrival. Experience makes for confidence! It's amazing how after a few flights, all those extra dials don't look so intimidating, and you start to feel at home. And you will get a real buzz from mastering the twin, compared to a single.

If you do the ME-IR, many schools now do 35 to 40 hours in a FNPT-2 sim, followed by 15 to 20 hours in the actual twin aircraft. So you get lots of practice (including some situations you wouldn't want to practice in the real aircraft) without leaving the ground. However, the cost savings are minimal as this part of the course was previously done in a PA-28, even in an ME-IR course.

Even if you do a SE-IR, to convert to the ME-IR you will still have to do the full ME rating course, and a second CAA skills test (cheque for £637 to the CAA each time please!, so I'm told)

Best of luck, whichever route you choose

[MEI]

Here another I used to do with my students that might help. not sure what you've been flying, but if you've nevwer been in a complex airplane this might help.

Spend a few quid and get a couple of hours in a 172RG or the like. Setting manifold pressure's and gears will be a bit easier than looking a twin gauges right from the go.

used to do this with my students and it seem to help quite a bit having a little extra knowledge before spending the real money.

Maybe you've been flying these already and are up to speed.
just my .02pence.