Finals

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Can anyone tell me why the Brits turn finals?

I never could find out how many runways they are seeing and shure would like to know. :hmm:

[homeguard]

The correct term is 'Final' which should be called once the aircraft is fully established, not during the turn, and when the pilot is satisfied that they are in a position to complete the approach to land.

However, the Brits are a creative lot and will always seek to vary from the norm upon every opportunity.

[DFC]

Even more common is -

"G-ABCD Finals 27 Right"

Not so bad until one realises that the airfield has only one strip (09/27) and the pilot is making an approach to that runway. Apparently the guy was referring to the circuit direction.........but does it matter when one is on final?

UK R/T is far superior to ICAO stuff....they even publish their own in depth manual........pity few pilots ever read it.

Regards,

DFC

[MikeJeff]

Fair comment Chuck,

However the argument is not relevant in the US where one doesn't need to call final as one has already been cleared to land, oftern 3 days before starting the flight in the first place!

[spitfire747]

Tower G-WARZ Final Runway 30.....

or due to sharp and close approaches here at cardiff for some flights (if tower know an instructor is flying)

Tower G-WARZ turning base to final, runway 30


RT goes the same for

one or wun
three or tree
five or fife

incorrect use of RT is rife amongst the masses..

G-WARZ runway vacated, goodbye

[BigEndBob]

I seem to remember being cleared to land on a downwind call at Orlando executive, only to have a turbo prop pilot ask three times for the position of the one ahead, when he was also cleared to land. He being ahead of us on long final. Got to admit this can confuse us Brits who have it drummed into us to get clearance to land on final.

Also i think Icao use to suggest call final on the turn or was this a RAF requirement re the tighter circuit.

[BlueLine]

Chuck,

Once an aircraft is established on FINAL it has a right of way, UK Rules of the Air 17 (6); no other aircraft may overtake or cut in front of it. Elsewhere in the circuit there is no such limitation.

The UK military call FINALS (plural, or the ROYAL WE) as they commence the base turn, based on the curved approach.

[Cool_Hand]

Aren't there Long Final, Final and Short Final, therefore if you are on any one but short final you are in theory capable of at least two of them?

:O

[Send Clowns]

Short final is not an official call! Final to 4nm, long final from 4 nm to, I think, 8 nm.

[Chilli Monster]

Short final is not an official call! Would you like to tell the French that where it's almost standard if you have traffic ahead ;)

Chuck - not all brits say "Finals", and some of us hate it as much you do ;)

[FullyFlapped]

I've heard "short final" used lots of times in the UK by ATC ... happened just two days ago to me at a regional airport, "Midland XXX, after the Cessna on short final line up and blah blah blah" ...

FF :ok:

[NineForks]

I believe the correct call for 'short final' etc should be with a reference to distance, e.g "After the Cessna on 1/2 mile final"..

Regards

9F

[Tinstaafl]

Hey Chuck, get into the spirit of it all. You could start calling 'upwinds', downwinds' & 'bases' too. :p

[18greens]

Short final is very useful as a hint for the person dithering on the runway to hurry up.

As is short short final.

I heard a story about a 737 landing fairly close behind a piper something. The 737 captain came on the radio advising the piper to vacate quickly because he wasn't going around and he didn't want to be wiping piper sh** off his windscreen.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Reminds me of sitting lined up on CYVR rwy 26 No 3 to go in a light twin. As I trundled out I could see the lights of a 747 on final. Quite impressive at dusk :uhoh: While impatiently waiting for the two guys ahead of me to get going I knew the jumbo was getting closer and closer:eek: As soon as the first cl of cleared for take off was out of the mouth of the controller I was off. He must have noticed this because he added " I bet you thought you were going to get squashed like a bug!:D

[BEagle]

UK Mil: "Anytown, Hammer, Initial, Break to land."

US Mil: "Uh Anyville, uuh, Sir, Hammer is a, uuh, flight of 2 requestin' a uuh, high speed gear up low approach for a, uuh, tactical pitch to the closed"

[BigEndBob]

The foreword to CAP 413 says "recommended practice", so i suppose anything goes. Probably because some of Cap 413 deviates from ICAO.

[QNH 1013]

I am told this is from an Indian RT training manual and is given as an example of sloppy, non-standard, RT:

US Mil Pilot: Stove Pipe Five in the slot. Got ma Boots on an' laced. Ready to bounce and blow.

US Mil Controller: You' got the nod to hit the sod.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I always thought that the English ATC thing was pretty Anal. Unfortunately Canada is going the same way. The best controller at my home field (CYYJ) was recently fined $200 because when his tapes were audited he was deemed to use too many nonstandard words. :ouch: ....Like "please"," thank you", and noted especially was the heinous " have a nice flight". :{ Yet at the end of the day he pushes more tin than anybody else , has fun and is always polite.:ok:

[BEagle]

That's outrageous! Being fined for courtesy - whatever next..

Back when I was in the Mil, we were sometimes tasked with pretending to be a 'defector' aircraft. Such fun tying ATC up in knots - "A/c calling, squawk xxxx, re-call Scottish Mil on XXX.XX" was greeted with "NO UNDR'STAN". As was anything more complicated than a single question.....

Q. "What is your altitude"
A. "Sjeven thousand metre"

Q. "Set QNH 1005 and descend to 4000 ft"
A. "No undr'stan. What altimeter in millimetres"

Q. "Why do you wish to land in UK?"
A. "We like your bluejeans, Beatles records and biro pens"

Q. "Why do you wish to defect"
A. "No like Sovietski Soyuz. Only cabbage sandwiches to eat and Wodka to drink. We admire Iron Lady"

Q. "Do you have any women on board?"
A. "If you knew Russki woman, you no ask such question. All are weighlifters or tractor drivers"

[tescoapp]

Bloody hell fined for being pleasant.

I would have thought that if the controller is so unstressed, not over loaded that they have time to be pleasant. They should be given a bonus for being well ahead of the game.

As for the short finals thing. Its pretty much in common usage so it will take CAP413 at least 10 years to catch up. It must of taken them that time to bow to pressure to change the intial call to a unit. That was after pressure from the controllers, pilots, flying instructors for years. And I suspect after all that it was pprune and the regular bitching by everyone that the current situation wasn't working the way that it should, that changed things. Its still going to take years though to filter its way through the 12 hours every 2 years PPL's.

Short finals is pretty simple really, its less than 4 nm.

A pilot saying it means get your arse in gear and give me some sort of instruction before launching into the next conversation with another plane.

And a controller saying it means get your arse off my runway either up or off at an exit.

But hey nobody seems to be getting MOR'd for using it. Better just keep using it and let the CAP413 queens bitch that it shouldn't be used. The rest of us can just get along nicely working together to get the job done safely and with as little stress as possible.

tescoapp

[BigEndBob]

Most of the time i think the term short final means i'm inside 1 mile at 300 odd feet. Otherwise if you say final the controller is looking too far up the app. and can't see you above the trees, through poor vis. etc.

The use of r/t is to increase safety of flying, if saying something non standard prevents an accident, so be it. So long as it is not misunderstood.

There will always be those that say the phrase short final doesn,t exist, but if you have been flying long enough at busy airfields, you will find it gets used several times a day.