Conflict with dad over University...

[Langeveldt]

Im in the upper sixth at the moment and am looking at ABB..

When i leave, i want to get something different out of life and learn to fly, right up to ATPL level eventually.. its always been something I have wanted to get into, but time constraints in the sixth form have stopped me from starting my PPL..

I also want to have a bash at the wide world, travelling and earning my own money to gradually fund this massive undertaking.. I hope to log hours in the USA and Africa

However my dad seems to be very discouraging whenever I talk about flying.. He wants me at a British University straight away, It doesnt appeal to me, I can't see myself sticking three years at somewhere I really don't want to be.. Especially as I can't find a course that really interests me, I know what I want, and that is to fly..
I know many Uni's in the UK offer air squadrons, but that isn't the point of going to university.. and the flying, when you have a degree to think about is surely limited.. (not to mention the added financial constraints)

I know not taking a degree is a risky option to take, but in my world money doesn't grow on trees and I am fully aware that I need to be working a good deal in the real world in order to live this dream..

Anyway, sorry for the long rant.. i would just like some feedback, is my father being reasonable? Should I follow my dream right away? Or do I just have unrealistic expectations?

Regards
Rich

[R T Jones]

Well I am currently in the lower sixth so im a year behind you. I was also thinking of not going to university because, like you i want a fATPL and to become an airline pilot. I didnt want the extra debt and the time I could be flying or working to get my atpl would be spent at uni. But my mind has been changed by another topic on the forum. Im definatly going to go uni now, hopefully with jobs and stuff i can keep the debt as low as possible. I dont think im ready to go to work at 18, and uni provides life experence. So at the end of uni I will go and try to be sponsored, your gonna be better off than guys stright from school at 18 or 19, or at least i reckon you will be. Plus if you dont get sponsored then you will most problely make more money with your degree thus allowing you to pay for your atpl, and a bank is more likely to give you the loan for this reason. So if you cant find a job in avaition, you can still pay the loan back as hopefully you will be earning a resonable salary. Anyway pm me if you wanna talk some more.

[gijoe]

Guys,

You can get your fATPLs without a university education - you cannot enter a graduate trainee scheme without it.

Go to university, enjoy it for what it is (life experience with no responsibilities, meet members of the opposite sex etc) and have a good time.

Then when once you've got the qual you will be in a position to follow a career that needs the qual and also those that don't....but you can't do it the other way round!

Take it from someone who thought long and hard about this a long time (and now has more than a few letters after his name).

Good luck

G:ok:

[expedite_climb]

Was in the same situation 7 years ago myself.

It was only when he said to me - do what you really feel is right, that I realised uni was the best option.

Good to have a back up career, good fun - some on the best years of my life. Whats more, all flying and nothing else makes John a dull boy.

You can always have a year off (I did fATPL's / instructor course in it), and fly at uni.....

[BigGrecian]

The trouble is that if you did do your fATPL, and then started applying for jobs you might find that you lack a bit of life experience. Yes, airlines want young pilots, and you are showing commitment. I would recommend having a gap year at least to show that you have broadened your horizions etc and then you'll have something to talk about when you get that first interview, regarding leadership, team work etc.

[Langeveldt]

Ive been in full time employment before, as well as doing a number of things to enhance my leadership skills (Sports coaching, Army cadets etc.) .. I know Uni is great for broadening one's horizons, but I'd like to think they are "getting" broader anyway

A GAP year at this stage looks severely tempting, will give me a bit more life experience, time to fly, travel as well as mull over my future plans..

Ta for the feedback

[Re-Heat]

If you haven't got a plan in your gap year, you will find that it simply eats a great deal of money.

Besides, you say yourself that I know not taking a degree is a risky option to take, but in my world money doesn't grow on trees: hence surely maximising your potential earnings takes priority until you have the security of a job.

1) Caution with self-selection for ATPLs unless you have done some aptitude tests, as many will take money from you to train you, but passing the first simulator for a job is a whole different ball game.

2) As I said on the other thread that RT Jones mentions, an awful lot of people have recently had to put aviation on hold - do you want to do that in a lowly paid flying intructor job, or in a graduate job?

On the other hand, don't bother doing a degree you won't work for it - neither convince yourself that as a degree is aviation-related it will be interesting enough to keep you focused, as aero eng is not the same as flying. Do not however underestimate the value of a degree: with your results you will waste your education by foregoing it.

Though your point about UASs is valid, they are not a place to bother going unless you are interested in the RAF as you would otherwise waste everyones' time, however have you not considered gliding clubs perhaps? Don't however underestimate that RAF EFT can be completed with a good degree while at uni, just that you won't have time for any other socialising to do both.

Finally, listen to your Dad, and talk to other pilots here and in the real world who have the wisdom of year. If you don't go to uni, put together a valid business plan of how you would achieve ATPL. And gain experience of your dream before you embark upon it, to make sure that it matches with how you perceive it to be.

Good luck, work for your A-Levels, and make sure you do your research. Remember that you don't have to get into flying at 18 to make it to the top.

Other thread here: http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145649

[craig1975]

My advise would be to go to Uni and enjoy Uni life. I did a degree and a Masters degree in Biological Science.

At Uni you learn independance and life skills that flying school cannot teach you. As you will have appreciated getting a job is hard once qualified and if you have a background that is just GCSE/A-level then getting a well-paid job is hard, esp with what will be between £40-70K debt.

After Uni I trained as a Chartered Accountant, and through this have a fall-back incase once I have finished training no jobs are available.

GIve yourself the best chance of a job by once you apply to the airlines, your CV stands out a mile from the hundreds of ordinary ones.

Although a Uni degree etc is not a pre-requisite for airline entry you need to be able to stand yourself out and with this have the inter-personal skills that Uni and a job can give you.

Choose a degree that will open up a multitude of options once you have graduated and choose a job for 3-4 years that will give you a fall-back option, say optometry, dentistry, finance, law etc that are all recognised as good professions, then sacrifice holidays etc and save up and put the money towards to flying, therefore putting a strong argument to your Dad.

I was in a very similar boat to you and at 27 am part-way through my training doing modular, with PPL done and ATPL's underway, £15k saved up to pay for my training, therefore leaving a loan of £10k left to repay. I have 3 degrees and a Chartered Accountancy qualification to fall-back on.

Hope this helps.

Craig

[ggpmw]

I didnt go on to Uni after my A'levels... as people have said before, more money would have changed hands and I would still be wanting to fly... but would have had to delay my training for years...
Im now 21, just finished CPL/IR with MCC on the books for October, if you want to Prvt msg and talk about it... then please feel free

[Cabotage Kid]

Langeveldt,

IMHO Your Dad's right whatever way you look at it. If you go to University you'll have more choice, more flexibility, more options and probably, in the long run, more money.

The biggest problem is doing something that you don't want to do. If you do that it'll probably be a disaster.

HOWEVER! I hate to sound condescending here, but if you are to be anything like I was you won't know what you will want to do until your early to mid-twenties anyway. You might think you do now...but...well...you'll see.

Don't do anything you'll hate because you will probably fail. Keep your medium term options open. Life is too complicated to happen as planned, but for very few people who appear to hover ever so slightly.

[flystudent]

Hi Langeveldt

I found myself in a similar situation to you. I was in my last year of School and was very focused on getting into the RAF as a pilot. Unfortunately I failed on medical grounds which I hadn't even considered ( I mean I had considered medical and thought all was well). So my pathway was suddenly cut very short as I had no planned contingency.

At the last minute I had to make a decision of what to do next as I hadn't sent of any uni application forms etc . I decided on the rebound to go to university(dads idea) and didn't put much thought into the course, outcome I did okay for a while and then really didn't put the effort in as I wasn't at all interested in the course I was doing.
After 3 years of learning lots (e.g. beer funnel construction, organising pub crawls, how to know when the fruit machine will pay etc etc) I left uni with no degree, a lot of non academic knowledge and I like to think a bit better understanding of the world. I then went about setting up a self employed business (non uni subject related) and did that for several years to generate enough revenue to do my fATPL. What's next - who knows??, I just finished the course a few weeks ago so it's time to get motivated and get those job letters out.

I do ask myself this though, I don't know how much it costs to go to Uni now or even if you get grants or who pays for it these days, but could that money be better spent e.g. going toward your flight training vs. uni ?? if you are planning self funding. I know when I went to Uni there was a cut of level and if your folks earned a certain amount you didn't get much in the way of a grant your folks had to fork the dosh is it still the same ?

Reason for this post ? Good question, I think it's to highlight what most of the others say.

Have a contingency ( I didn't, and do for everything now)
Get life experiences (great fun, except the kicking from doormen)
If you go to uni make sure it's something you will get into (even if non flying related e.g. how women's volleyball has developed over the years)
If you go to uni join the UAS or similar (I didn't, another mistake)
Most of all have a great time doing it, who wants regrets.

Discuss with dad, do the old pros and cons thing.

Laters
FS :ok:

[Mooney12]

I definately encourage you to go to uni. I had an amazing time at uni. I hated my course, but in my opinion that wasn't really the point of uni. The point of uni is:

- Nights out all the time, during the week.
- Halls of residence (an experience!)
- Girls (obviously)
- More nights out
- Meet loads of different people.
- More nights out
- And a degree at the end of it. (some work is required)

Im off to NZ now to start my training with CTC. Although Ive always wanted to fly, I doubt Il enjoy it as much as I did uni, after all it is a job. Uni will be the best years of your life, don't miss it.

ps - the UAS is great fun as well, and gives you excellent flying training, as often as you want, for free. Plenty of drink consumed there too.

[Maximum]

Here's a slightly different viewpoint for you. It all depends on the kind of person you are, and how mature you are for your years.

In my experience, a majority of the management pilots and training Captains I've known were not university graduates - they would have viewed it as a waste of time when they could have been getting on with flying. Either in the forces or more commonly in fact, instructing and air taxi etc. They started flying young, and therefore had an advantage in terms of thousands of hours of experience by the time the university types were just getting round to starting their training. Result, you join an airline and your Captain is younger than you and vastly more experienced.

I'm not saying one way is better than the other, because often their lack of university education showed itself in a very narrow and sometimes uncomfortably intense view of the world. Not the most exciting conversationalists that's for sure. But they were well up the rungs on that ladder, becoming fleet managers etc at a very young age.

Having said that, things are probably changing somewhat now, with airlines perhaps demanding the more typical graduate pilot manager, but this is not always the case.

So really, it comes down to you. Would you prefer to start into the very serious and sometimes boring world of real work now, but get your foot on the ladder early, or delay it by three or four years and have some mindless fun, but perhaps have Captains who are younger than you?

Your own reactions to that should give you the answer.

[er82]

Just to give you an opinion from the other side.....
I was in the same situation as you 4 years ago. In 6th form, doing A-Levels, had to make the decision whether to go to Uni or not. I decided against it - with my parents full support. Coming from an island down in the Channel, we have to pay for Uni, full costs, no grants, and slightly higher fees in some cases due to being 'overseas' students. I chatted with my Dad about it, and it turned out that 3 years at Uni with all the accommodation etc etc would come to not much less than the integrated course at Oxford.
I decided that there was really nothing I wanted to do at Uni, and couldn't see the point in doing a course that didn't really interest me, and that I probably wouldn't ever use again. So I went straight from A-Levels to Oxford for the course.

Quite a jump work-wise, perhaps something that Uni would have helped me be better prepared for, but certainly nothing that couldn't be overcome.

Reading Mooney12's post, as well as others, you have to decide whether the 'life experiences' they are talking about are something you'd really like to experience for yourself....

I'd like to think I got a pretty good understanding of the night's out, members of the opposite sex (hey, being a girl amongst a couple of hundred men - wahey!), meeting lots of different people (all with a similar ambition but from totally different backgrounds) - and all whilst training for the career which I was totally dedicated to - not whilst doing some course that I hated and wouldn't use again.

>>At Uni you learn independance and life skills that flying school cannot teach you<< - I'd say that living on minimum amounts of cash, being able to study for 4 hours a night after 9hrs of lectures all day, and being able to get yourself out of bed on a sunday morning, avoid the hangover-tv and start studying again, all whilst your friends are at Uni getting drunk every night would pretty much be proof that you are independant and can motivate and look after yourself. And I'd be interested to know what exactly the "life skills" are that everyone keeps going on about that you can gain whilst at Uni........
A couple of years travelling the world would probably bring more life skills than a couple of years at Uni...

>>if you have a background that is just GCSE/A-level then getting a well-paid job is hard<< - reasonably true. But not completely true. I did it, and I know of a few others that did it.

>>inter-personal skills that Uni can give you.<< Not completely true. Inter-personal skills can be developed anywhere, not just at Uni. You could probably gain more of these skills working on the ground for an airline handling agent than you could in the pub whilst at Uni.

At the end of the day you'll have to think long and hard about it, but don't just go to Uni to please your Dad. It has to be something you want to do - after all if you don't really want to go it could just be a waste of 3 years.
If you want a job that gives you lots of money, don't think about a career in aviation. It will take you a long time to get to the stage where you do actually earn what everyone thinks you earn! If you want some well-paid job, then go to Uni and get a degree and sit behind a desk from 9-5 every day.

I don't regret for one minute not going to Uni. I had the best time whilst doing my flying training, and now I'm in a job that I love. I've been doing it for 2 years, and the time has flown by! (pun intended!).
And don't forget - whilst your flying career could well be cut short by some medical reason later in life, it is posisble to stay within the airline environment. You could branch into the recruitment area or the management area. Southampton Uni offers Open courses that could be completed once you've got a job with an airline, allowing you to study in your spare time, and which would give you a degree in airline recruitment/management/airline safety.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

[Re-Heat]

Everyone has good points, and you need to weigh up all that has been said for your circumstances and abilities.

One point however, Maximum, all those training captains and managers of our fathers' vintage grew up in a world where a great deal fewer went to university. Make sure that you are clear that now university is more common, more of the future generation of captains and trainers will be managers, so do not use that as an indication!

Craig 1975 - which firm? I'm qualifying at Deloitte at the moment.

[oz01]

hi
i was in the same situation good alevels not decided whether uni or fatpl.

i deferred my uni place and decided to work normally - earn fatpl and do that.

2 years on - ive kept saving, but to be honest, a) i cant warrant spending what i have saved on learning to fly when its so volatile.
b) regret not going to uni for the qualification and the social experience.
c) hate the rest of it anyway - end up with a crap job if u aint got a degree.

my opinion is to just do uni and take a chance on flying at a later stage when you may be in a more comfortable position to do it... or .. be prepared to change your mind along the way.

its just not worth the hassle - my crap planning has caused nothing but stupid hassle and wasted time! which i regret very much.

[Langeveldt]

Hi all, thanks a lot for the feedback! WOW thats service!

Ma (who wants me to go with my dreams, work hard and fly) brought this up at the dinner table, anyway we were completely shot down by dad who says that without a degree, I won't be able to get myself a loan, or sponsership from airlines who nowadays are looking for the complete article...

Without wanting to blow my own trumpet too much, Im pretty confidant that I have a lot of life and leadership experience.. Ive heard pilots tell me i'd be a pretty ideal character.. However I know you can never rest on your laurels when it comes to employment with the airlines...

Anyway, all the fun of the fair I guess.. I know I am a serious candidate for dropping out of Uni(I know the rate is severely high now)... And I have only just started upper sixth..

Anyway, are my dads points at the top true? Without some serious money coming in from a degree job, I am going to rely heavily on the good souls at HSBC, so that matters to me a great deal...

I was also of the opinion that post September 11th, Airlines have almost stopped sponsership? Rumour mill in good force again? IS full sponsership a really viable option?

[oz01]

your silly if u miss uni.
you'll be able to get the loans and stuff if you can be responsible with money. i.e saving along the path i did, they'll throw money at you.
at the end of the day,its your life. but if youve got the chance, do uni - then put it behind you and focus on either a career or an fatpl

[flystudent]

Hi again

Re the funds for example for an HSBC loan and the Oxford course it is my understanding that you will get 25-35K unsecured max. The rest , well then they will probably want security, and unless you have your own pension worth a lot a house or as in most cases ma & pa's signature on the home !! Then it will be hard to get "self sponsored" funding (integrated anyway).

Saying that get a degree, then the odds are 3-4 years later you still don't have that type of cash or indeed have less and a debt but a degree you do have (if you stay in Uni) so you'll probably still need ma & pa's signature if you want to get the money, however the pilot market situation may have changed a bit e.g. it may be a seekers market rather than an employers market (if that makes sense)

There are a few schemes around now which are/if not getting close to sponsored (see other topics) but I imagine the competition is fierce for these.

All I would say is this, print out this topic, discuss it worth your folks and talk about the "what if's"

What if I start training then there is another 9/11 etc etc.
Perhaps a half way house, e.g. an HND (if they still exist) in electrical engineering or plumbing or something lucrative ?? I mean they will make you money if it all goes sour :-) It's a really tough choice and I am thinking if I had kids what would I rather they did, the options

1. Go to Uni, get degree (+ life experience)
2. Take year out to get life experience start ATPL course on return
3.Start Now
4. Do airline related job (e.g. dispatcher) then get into it.
5. Some formal qualification then the course

I think I would steer them in the #2 option because in that year I imagine one would do a lot of thinking and know for sure by the end if it's what you want to do (I mean after some of those life experiences)

As for the person who posted from channel islands, at that time I think is was probably a "graduates market" rather than an employers market, also going from school straight into that whoosh, that had to be hard. (respect :ok: )

But look at all the options you have then weigh each one up (along with the financial implications)

Good luck with it all

[Maximum]

er82 , you illustrate my point perfectly. While everyone else is getting drunk at uni and dreaming about flying, you're there doing it!

Consider the uni thing people. The 'fall back option' has always been bandied around by worried parents for as long as I can remember.

You'd think that a degree was a magic entry pass to a disneyworld of lucrative career choices. Lets just explore that. You half heartedly embark on a degree course you've no interest in because your parents want you to have a fall back position. If you're lucky, and the dreams of flying, drink and the opposite sex don't take too much of a toll, you come out three years later with an average degree. Then what?

Either you go for a job to make money for flying using your degree, or you use it as a 'fall back' later on. Don't you think there'll be the same competitiveness for worthwhile jobs outside aviation? Graduate jobs where you'll be up against other graduates who actually want to do the job. Even worse when your degree's a couple of years old so to speak. Not such a magic 'fall back' position after all.

As I see it the choices for a school leaver who really really really wants to fly for a living are this:

1.) Get selected by an airline for sponsorship or the armed forces.

2.) Get parents or whoever to finance your training.

3.) If option 2.) not available, situation now very difficult indeed needing huge amounts of motivation and graft. Either start work straight away (think about training as plumber, electrician etc) or go to uni.

4.) Uni option will take much longer but might eventually lead to higher paid work to finance training. Uni option may for the lucky few lead to UAS flying. Best training in the world. Danger of uni option is distraction into other things, life takes over, new career takes over and flying dreams fall by the wayside but will always niggle away as you work to support your new wife and kids.

Conclusion - the world of work is tough whatever way you look at it. Parents are naturally fearful for you going out into the big bad world, and are drawn towards the degree as a way of putting off the inevitable in many ways. But to utilise that degree will ultimately require the same kind of dedication that anything worthwhile takes. Don't think of the degree as an easy option. The high achievers always work hard no matter what they tell you.

Do what you really want to do, but make sure it's financially viable. You're just not going to get anywhere fast in flying by flipping burgers or stacking shelves.

[Groundloop]

It is possible to do both at the same time.

There are a few universities in the UK that offer degrees which include CPL or ATPL.

[flystudent]

Groundloop

That sounds like a really cool idea, I can surf the net to find out about this (I dont need it) but it would really help a lot of people out or do you happen to have the info to hand please. Does it include the actual flying too ? or just the theoretical examinations ?

FS

[Big Cheese1]

Fly student, I found this for you:

http://www.londonmet.ac.uk/depts/bssm/aviation/courses/courses_home.cfm


Its been mentioned on the forums before, so read through it and see if anyone else heres done one.

Hope it helps :ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

I went to university where I got a full time degree, I went back part time later and did another part time. Clearly I enjoyed it, and felt I benefited a great deal from it.

But, I don't think that everybody I knew there benefitted - 3 years is a fair commitment (4 for an engineering degree these days). I've known people who graduated and were then unemployed for longer than their degree took; I also know several who left school with mediocre A-levels, and by the time their contemporaries had graduated - was able to offer them jobs (I'll bet that felt good)


I think what's important is that you need a plan. I left school wanting to be a professional Engineer, and a degree was firmly part of that plan - and so it proved to be. I've become other things since then, but that's another issue. To quote somebody or other "If you fail to plan, then you plan to fail".


So, very seriously, you need to look at what you want to be or be doing in 5 years - then consider how you're going to get there. It doesn't matter if you come up with several possible objectives or several possible routes - your plans will change.

Then look at what you've put together and think about what you do next. Is university the best option?, is an apprenticeship the best option?, is doing some vocational course better?, would you be best off trying to enter the armed forces and pursuing an aviation career that way.

Nobody but you can do this, and nobody but you can demonstrate to your Dad (who has some say in the matter, after-all he'll probably be your backstop whatever route you take) that you've got a reasonable plan and know how much, how long, what qualifications - and the other things that you need to know.

Or you can leave school and drift, but I wouldn't recommend it - and don't think from the tone of your posts so far you're likely to do anyway.


On a more immediate note, get hold of the BWPA (British Women Pilots Association) booklet "so you want to be a pilot", and the similar document on pilot careers from the Royal Aeronautical Society. Both, regardless of your sexual or monarchist preferences will be invaluable sources of reference.

Also, don't forget that Gap years are a good thing (worked for me, what I did in that year has been the foundation of my whole career), and can give you some breathing space to think about it.

And very finally, others may disagree with me on this - but don't do a "Ladies basket weaving" degree, if you do apply for university, make it something that'll count. If you want to go into a profession like flying then either a technical subject (maths, physics, engineering) or languages are probably your best bet.

G


N.B. Just adding to the couple of posts above, Leeds offers aeronautical science with pilot studies, Sheffield offers aerospace engineering with private pilot instruction - a few others are starting to jump on that bandwagon as well. Not a bad way to keep your Dad happy, gain some real knowledge of whether you can cope with flying and professional aviation studies, and give you a useful degree if you can't make it as a pilot for whatever reason.

[sbanni]

When would you guys say the best time is to take a gap year- after college or after uni?

A lot of people say that having the gap year after uni is a put-off to future employers because they feel that all the things you learnt in your degree will have been forgotten!?

Rgds
Scott

-In 1st year at college

[Re-Heat]

sbanni - Considering that I am among the youngest in my intake at my firm having not taken a gap year, I would say that it does not hold true in practice.

Most of my colleagues have taken post-uni gap years or done other jobs - from Tesco assistants to Phd in Chemistry and former equity traders in investment banks.

Some might say that you get more out of a gap year following university than before - it depends what you want to get out of it!

[RVR800]

You need money to train as a pilot
To get the money you need a profession
The well paid professions require a degree
You dad is right.......

Oh and while your studying Pharmacy or Dentistry dont forget to join the University Air Squadron...

[Genghis the Engineer]

I'd advise against a gap year after your degree - between 6th form and university is much more sensible. Your degree knowledge, whatever it's in, is the start of your professional training and you need to be moving from there to career sooner rather than later.

Just be careful of losing your study skills between 6th form and university - I did somewhat and struggled a lot in my first year as a consequence. Whatever you are up to in your gap year - do make sure it includes some kind of study activity.

G

[sbanni]

Thankyou to Re-heat and G for their replies.

Rgds
Scott