Easiest £35,000 I ever borrowed [Archive]

Captain Ratpup

24th Sep 2004, 13:21

After reading stories here about how hard it was to get the money together for the training, I thought I'd write about my own experiences with getting the Professional Studies Loan. I couldn't believe how straightforward it all was.

I graduated from university a year ago and I've just jacked in a poorly-paid banking job to get on with the groundschool. I was kind of kidding myself into thinking that flying actually really wasn't what I wanted so I ended up persuading myself to try to make a career in banking instead! Silly really, I know! I've had a PPL for five years and I've known for longer than that that I wanted to fly planes for a living.

What really made my mind up about flying as a career was hearing a guy in a guitar shop describing his life as second-rate because he didn't take the chance to become a pilot when he had it. He's now in his late 40s, owns a guitar shop, looks skywards on hearing a jet and subscribes to Airliner World. I'm sure he has a happy life but it's obvious that this is something he really regrets not doing.

Needless to say, I'm already in substantial debt as a result of university and I was having the usual fears of never getting a job at the end of the training. More to the point, I was almost convinced that the banks wouldn't touch me with a bargepole.

So it was to my pleasant surprise that HSBC sorted out a loan of £35k with repayments starting in March 2006. This gives me almost a year's safety net after finishing flying training. Not long and the chances of me being in a jet job are pretty much nil. But it does help an awful lot. The deal isn't too bad - interest is calculated at 2% above base rate and it's unsecured so nobody can pinch my house if the worst comes to the worst. The only serious conditions for the loan were (a) switching my current account to them and (b) taking out life and critical illness cover (which seemed quite sensible a thing to do anyway).

All it took was two hours of me explaining what things like instrument ratings and MCCs were to the guy in the bank. His loan checklist said all he could finance me for was this "Commercial Pilot's Licence thingy" so I had to gently explain that all the other bits are sort of essential components to the fATPL. Even explaining that groundschool was a requirement to getting the CPL issued.

It wasn't that the guy in the bank was stupid. It was just that aviation wasn't understandibly his area of expertise. But, if you make the effort to really explain your intentions and what all the bits of the training actually mean (i.e. an instrument rating lets me fly in clouds and this is something I need if I want to fly a jumbo jet), they do appreciate it and are therefore more likely to approve your application.

Some tips to help you along include:

*Prepare a budget spreadsheet or breakdown of costs (particularly important for modular students).
Remember to include cost of living as well as CAA fees. There doesn't seem to be any harm in swelling your cost of living so that you've got some leeway if you have to do any retakes if you fail papers or get an IR partial pass.

*Explain why you're better than everybody else and, thus, why you have such an amazing chance of getting a job at the end of the training.
Afterall, the bank is making a risky investment. OK, so I'm not better than anyone really and, as we all know, we're pretty much in the same boat when it comes to getting the job at the end. But the banks like to hear things like the fact you've already spent your own cash on a PPL and Class One, or that the RAF gave you a scholarship when you were 16.

*Book an appointment at a big branch.
My little village branch had no clue that they even offered this loan. If the branch seems a bit clueless on this type of thing, get them to ring the Kidlington branch in Oxfordshire (seems to get every single finance application from the soon-to-be-destitute Oxford guys).

Bear in mind that HSBC aren't the only bank to offer this. You could shop around. But, provided they all want to give you the money, the overriding decision must be 'which interest rate is cheapest'?

I hope this helps guys and girls. Feel free to PM me if you need any further advice.

Good luck!

Ratpup:)

BigGrecian

24th Sep 2004, 13:40

Thanks for the tips.
I am have my appointment booked for next Tuesday, and HSBC want to see proof that I am accepted onto a course. However I can't apply for a course until I'm sure I have the finacial means to start a course so I might find myself in a bit of a deadlock! (Have contacted FTO to see whether they'll email with a letter to give HSBC without me putting down a deposit having explained my situation!)

Captain Ratpup

24th Sep 2004, 14:13

That's the usual Catch 22. The bank wants to see you're enrolled, but you can't do that without the money to apply in the first place.

The professional studies loan is normally given to university professionals such as medical or law students. In those cases, you need to get a place on a competitive course but there is no cost involved in applying. In our pilot world, you can sign up to most schools by giving them some cash. There is no formal application process although some schools (particularly the 'big three' integrated ones) like you to fill in forms nonetheless.

The solution is to ask the school to write a letter saying they'd be willing to offer you a place if you had the money for the deposit. I ended up simply explaining to the bank that a 'proof of acceptance' onto a course doesn't really mean much for flying training as it might do for applying for a Masters course. The bank seemed happy with that explanation.

Otherwise, if you're going modular, you're faced with having lots of 'proof of acceptance' letters from your groundschool, your CPL/IR school then perhaps your MCC school. This is all nonsensical since, if you're like me and you've just started groundschool, you probably have an idea of where you want to fly but it's not yet definite.

Hope this helps!

Ratpup

EGAC_Ramper

24th Sep 2004, 21:32

In the same boat,have recently been to the HSBC met nice lady and whom I have to say was really helpful.She seemed quite positive and just had to put it forward to the Manager:oh: At the moment I'm awaiting his decision.My bank account has been smoothly transferred without a glitch and I'm away in next Friday to sort out my life cover.
As for the letter I contact the FTO(Oxford)in my case with whom I'm doing a full-time modular course.They furnished me with a letter so that I could put it forward to the HSBC.Something along the lines of "upon reciept of the deposit MOI will be accpeted onto his chosen course commencing March 2005":ok:

Regards

Captain Ratpup

24th Sep 2004, 22:46

Bear in mind that they'll try to sell you their own life cover which is more expensive than other equally viable options. Although you have to open an account with them, that doesn't mean you need to take whatever they try to sell you on top of the loan. There is no law or regulation requiring you to do as they say and it is against regulatory codes for them to force you into their own products.

For independent advice on financial products such as the all-important life cover, check out www.fool.co.uk

747 Truth

25th Sep 2004, 05:56

Nice job Captain Ratpup, but i think its not that easy to get a loan. I myself graduated form university 4 years ago and applied for the professional thingy and they would not touch me with a barge poal, even though i had no debt (graduated in the black) and i own a 200k home in London. So i spent the next 4 years earning the money in the investment arena.....i had to put my dreams on hold for 4 years....i am glad to hear that you got a Loan!

Wee Weasley Welshman

25th Sep 2004, 07:10

I think the availability of £45,000 unsecured loans to anyone who can sign up for an Integrated course, i.e. anyone at all. Is. Mad, bad and sad.

Sorry but I do.

At 2% above current base rate that is a repayment of £886 over 5 years. Or £516 a month if you spread it over 10 years.

Thats a total loan repayment of £62,000 over 10yrs or £53.2k over 5.

Have you considered what a thump that is going to make you your salary? Lets say you are lucky and soon get a job flying, oooh I dunno, one of Emeralds smart new ATRs hauling freight around the nightime sky.

IF they paid you £19k a year then you'd take home about £1,100 at the end of the month. You can't afford £886 out of that so it looks like £516 for the next decade. Over that decade the Bank of Englands base rate may well climb to more historical norms around the 6.75% region.

Taking your ten year repayment to £563 a month and £67.7k in total...

So thats like adding £20k on top of the basic course price of circa £70k. £90,000 to get 200hrs?!?! You're 'aving a larf mate!

Even if you get lucky and get straight into a jet airline the first year take home pay is highly unlikely to break £2,000. Take off £886 and the resulting £1,114 is going to have to be spread pretty thin.

Lets say your base is Gatwick. We'll call the rent £400 a month and that won't be pretty. You'll have to have a car and petrol and even a banger will have to be £100 a month to run. You'll be paying council tax and utilities at £150 a month. Then you'll have to eat at say £25 a week - £100 a month. Your clothes will wear out and its hard to avoid little bills like TV licenses and the dentist so you'll lose another £100 a month.

So you've got £264 left each month. £9.10p a day to 'live' off.

You'll be living in a flee pit, driving a banger, patching your clothes and living hand to mouth, working anti-social hours in a strange part of the country and have less money in your pocket than the average student.

And thats if you get a jet job pronto.

I just don't see how these number add up into a realistic or - indeed - worthwhile proposition.

---------

There is no great rush to get into commercial flying. You are still young and the industry is going through a tough time. Go away and save like crazy, move in with your parents and get 3 jobs. Save like a man demented and I'm sure you'd have your £45k within 3 years. By which time the industry will likely be in a much better state.

And NO loan repayment.

Think of the difference.

Cheers

WWW

ps It is worth it in the end though - I promise ;)

747 Truth

25th Sep 2004, 07:35

Thanks WWW some inspirational words. I am glad i did no take out a loan now!.....i saved like a beaver and now have all the money i need for a integrated course!

T

:ok:

Captain Ratpup

25th Sep 2004, 12:06

I agree in principle with what WWW says. We would all love to be in the position that you propose, whereby you work hard and save up for the training costs. Your points are prudent ones but unfortunately some of us do not have the luxury to make your suggested choices.

Take me as an example. I can't move in with my parents because (and not wanting to be dramatic) they're dead. So I can't save money by living in cheaper digs.

On the point of working balls-out in three jobs: well, I left my bank job without anything else to go to simply because I hated it that much. I simply could not stand being there and it got to the point that I didn't want to wake up in the mornings for work.

Sure, few people really get excited about work to the point that they leap out of bed on a Monday morning. Even astronauts and parachute instructors have their off days. But I was in an extremely crap working life and I saw others around me get sucked so far into their despised careers that they didn't dare leave. It's hard to leave when there's a cushy pension and easy hours. Things get too comfortable and secure. You get your wages, you work a few hours but then, at the end of it, you can just go home and switch off.

I realise fully how expensive a debt this is. I am also aware that it will no doubt cripple me financially when I do end up working as an instructor for a decade. But even the unpleasant thought of knowing that I'll be relying on a beloved partner for help is a thousand times better than the thought of going back to where I came from.

I've been flying as a PPL for enough years to want this lifestyle badly. At a glance, my decision to borrow so much money may seem blase and rash. But I hope you'll appreciate that an awful lot of thought has been put into it.

Ratpup

Wee Weasley Welshman

25th Sep 2004, 12:39

Yeah - I've no desire to have a go at you personally. For all I know you are a more mature and sensible person than I. I appreciate that you have taken a measured decision.

I sympathise with your hatred of your desk job. I had one for over 3 years after University. I did as I have advocated. I lived like a pauper on about £17k in 1996/7/8/9 at home with my folks. I did the ATPL by correspondence course as well as my main job plus worked in bars and other things at weekend.

By these means I was able to do the Modular route on buttons and without the aid of the bank manager.

PPRuNe - as was just starting up at the time - kept me sane at my desk. I was the original Wannabe.

My cautionary words are because of my experience. Others will have differing experiences and I used to make my living out of people taking large loans and enrolling on Integrated courses. I respect that and its common.

Neverthless I think if it can be avoided it best be. Not least because being debt free allows you to be flexible job hunting. You can afford to take that pays-naff-all job in Scotland. You can afford to be a flying instructor in the winter. You can afford to follow the first job you get a sniff of even if it means paying for part of the type rating or moving country or starting part time.

With the REQUIREMENT every month to earn decent money so as to service a loan you may well severely limit your first job options. And its the first job thats the tricky one. After that they tend to keep coming it just being a matter of time.

Good luck with it all.

WWW

BIG MISTER

25th Sep 2004, 12:47

Very interesting post guys !

I can see it from both side but I can also remember how hard it is to live in the Gatwick area and pay off large loans......got myself into that trap a while back and its hard !

So every penny saved before you take the leap towards your dreams is a pennys less interest to the banks.

Lets face it when borrowing slows down due to the cooling effects on the housing market the banks change gear and will loan ANYONE money for ANYTHING !

As WWW says the interest rates could go back up to where they were a few years ago.....and further.....and thats when people foud themselves unable to repay the mortgage ect ect.

A very good friend of mine has just finished at a top UK school got all the bits of paper and spent £60K + AND NO JOB ! ! ! !

Having said that sometimes you just have to GO FOR IT but you have to remember the maths at the end of the day.....that banger awaits you and you can forget about 'airport night' in Creapy Crawley for a while !!!!!

Good luck to you anyway my friend + wise words WWW !

:ok:

Captain Ratpup

25th Sep 2004, 13:31

Thanks for the feedback WWW. I value your comments as you've actually been down that path yourself.

What I need to consider very carefully is what my backup is when the repayments start. What (or who) do I have to fall back on?

I think I'm obliged to borrow a good chunk but your comments convince me that it would be more than just worthwhile to offset what I need to borrow with some sort of job.

Ratpup

birdlady

25th Sep 2004, 13:45

Hi ALL!!

Very interesting stuff here. I myself have been humming and hawing over moving back to the Uk after living abroad for some time. I've finished my PPl here in SA and have almost completed my hour building and as luck would have it have run out of money. BUGGER!!!!!!! I had sold my flat to pay for my PPL and then when that money ran out I started working for my flying school in return for six hours a month. Never saw a single hour so I left. However I was determined to stay here and fininsh my training then disaster struck while I was away with some friends for a weekend in the bush. My brother had just returned to University and as he was coming home, three armed b****ds jumped him in his drive. They made him get out of the car and made him lie on the ground. They had guns pointed at his head and they took everything. As one of them was about to pull the trigger (he'd been threatening this for some time) there were sirens. Thank ****!!!! One of his room mates had seen the whole thing and called the police. Ive got my tickets booked and plan to never set foot in this place ever again!!!! Regardless of the fun times Ive had flying around here. Im going back to Ireland and will work ten jobs if it means that I get my CPL. This is something I want really bad (doesnt everyone??) and dont care if I have to spend the next 20years living in a flea hole paying back a bank loan. However www, do understand where your coming from and can appreciate it.
It all depends on how badly you want it and I CAN NOT go back to an office job. It would do my head in.
Congradulations on your loan Ratpup and best of luck. And when your sitting in your flea hotel, think about why you did it - TO FLY.......
Ciao
BL

PPWannaBe

26th Sep 2004, 13:50

Nice to hear that others have been through the hell of the "loan", "no loan" decision. I myself opted for "No Loan", having spent a couple of months weighing up my options.

In the end I feel I took the right choice, and i'm now in the latter stages of completing my PPL, looking to start my ATPLs with Bristol in the next month or so. I managed to land a pretty well payed job after finishing uni this year, deciding to live at home with the folks, and it would seem take a similar route to WWW. I hope complete my training with as little debt and as little risk as possible.

Anything you can do to try and mitigate the financial risks of this career path are wisely taken, having thought long and hard myself, I can only echo the wise words of WWW.

All the Best

PP:ok:

RVR800

28th Sep 2004, 13:07

WWW make a good point about interest rates assumptions.

They are still very low.

I remember when they were 15% - Many people went bankrupt at that time.

If that happened again....?

Could you cope... ?

On another worrying note what is going to be the effect of oil prices on the aviation industry.( Oil has gone through $30 then $40 and today went through $50 a barrel )

World demand appears to be outstripping supply..for oil

BigGrecian

30th Sep 2004, 12:49

HSBC have just refused to give me a Professional Studies Loan. I took a spread sheet etc with course details etc. The woman didn't seem to know much about the loan, and I have just got the phone call saying they can't help me, and they didn't have any specific reason.
Just not sure where I can go from here...

Edited message to say that I approached a larger branch where they were only too happy to help - and I have now been approved! Roll on Module 1 of ATPLs . . .

Number Cruncher

30th Sep 2004, 12:56

Final decisions are made branch by branch, so just keep applying to other branches until you get lucky!

I got approved for a loan today on the basis I take out their mandatory life cover. Anyone else experienced that too?

kilobravo

30th Sep 2004, 14:19

Hi Birdlady

Maybe you can post your progress upon your return to Ireland. Am living and working here myself and hold a PPL from Weston.
Looking forward to full time employement, studying at night, saving cash, ( no debts from my PPL ) and when ATPL's are over if I ever get there, maybe having to borrow less from Bank later. Am 35 and yes had to move home to mummy and daddy!!! Work is slow and flying ain't cheap.
Good luck all

FliegerTiger

30th Sep 2004, 14:41

Managed to get a £10,000 loan from HSBC in Northampton (Wood Hill Branch) even with my dreadful credit rating! The girl I saw was called Laura Pointer, she was very friendly and helpful. All I can say is, go in as prepared as you can, suited-up, with a full business plan, do the GAPAN tests or something similar and have a copy of your results, etc...

FT

birdlady

30th Sep 2004, 15:44

Hi Kilobravo

Just wanted to ask you - what did you think of weston??? Im thinking of either atlantic in Cork or PTC in Waterford. Please PM me with any comments.

Ciao
bl

Iceman1976

18th Oct 2004, 17:12

CAptain Ratpup, you posts make interesting reading, but in your other post you had a nice bank job and now you have jacked it in! you didnt say it was poor pay in your other post! you said it was ok!.

3 main points come to mind, which I dont know if you discussed with the bank but It would be good to hear your answers:

1. What are the repayments on 35k and over what period?

2. How are you going to pay it back in 2006 if you havent got a pilots job?. are you gonna go back to work for the bank for "poor pay"? Judging by your earlier post, telling us how much you had to fork out per month and what you earned, the bank could be deemed to be irresponsible, lending you that kinda money. Whos gonna cover your bills whilst you are at a flying school?

3. What are your chances of getting a pilots job, and how are you going to find one?

Did the bank ask you these questions? you didnt mention it before.
:cool:

ps...WWW made some fantastic points there, and i would agree that is it worth taking out a loan over ten years, and have that kinda ball and chain around your neck! considering what u will earn. but having said that, everyone is not in a position to save, due to monthly outgoings etc.

Kempus

19th Oct 2004, 14:37

hi,

Well just had a knock back about a loan because i could not offer enough "personal financial comitment".

What exactly does this mean? If i had the finacial comitment i would not be going for the loan in the first place. I rent so dont have a house to put up but have got the chance of a career break at work to go back to if i dont get a job straight away and have sat tests and been accepted on the Astraeus TRSS type course. What do i do now? was the living expenses part that seem to catch me out as they were interested until i mentioned it!

Any ideas?

kempus

tom24

19th Oct 2004, 14:55

£53k ish is a lot of money to ask for. In my experiences with the studies loan they seemed to encourage the extra borrowing for further living expenses!

If you saw HSBC, then i suggest you try other branches.

Out of interest, what branch did you go to?

Can a relative put up security? Though it is a massive favour to ask.

Kempus

19th Oct 2004, 18:03

hi,

went to the glasgow branch (profile a little out of date) and they were interested but as i said it was the living expenses part.

I've a relative willing to be gaurantor but to secure against property is too much beside the mortgage lenders have first call on the house.

There maybe an option of going part time for the first 9 months up too the CPL/IR stage which would cut the 10k a year HSBC say i need to live on. As far as i'm aware there is a young lady on the course already doing it this way, may have to get in touch with her somehow!

kempus

jamespollard

21st Oct 2004, 16:23

insider dealing.....

i used to be a manager for HSBC before quitting to do the FATPLs.

With regards to the Prof Studies loan, make sure you have a back up plan. Most lenders will want a safety net either in the way of security or another profession that you can fall back on incase another 911 happens and you have no way of paying the loan back, other than as a pilot.
Life and Critical Illness is normally mandatory and its a good idea to get more than the amount you borrow as the rates are cheaper and the interest will accrue whilst the loan is not being paid over the 2 year grace period.
Before you get the HSBC loan, get a Career Development Loan first as this is interest free for the first 2 years. When the payments start on the Career Development Loan the best thing to do is refinance it via a personal loan as the interest rate is about 8.5% and you can do better than this.
HSBC will want you to provide some funds to the training they will not lend 100% unless you have excellent track records with them or good security.
IF you secure the loan against your house or parents ensure that you get independant legal advice first so you know what you are entering into. The law regarding the loan differs from that of mortgage law and you dont have the same rights if you are unable to pay it back
Go to a big branch also as smaller branches dont have sufficient lending authority to agree the loans - only certain managers can sign off these deals.
happy landings

Kempus

24th Oct 2004, 02:59

Hi,

Now with this loan my parents have offered to go gaurantor but will not secure the loan against property. I have made several calls to the Kidlington branch as i guess they are familiar to this kind of loan but after leaving numerous messages i have failed to get a call back (good customer service????) so what is the differencebetween having it secured and having a guarantor?

Anyone with experience of this?

kempus

Kempus

25th Oct 2004, 14:42

Still never got a call back so gave them a ring.

"what are you calling us for?" "We only deal with OAT students"

thats how the conversation went at the kidlington branch today when asking for advice! :mad:

kempus

EGAC_Ramper

25th Oct 2004, 16:51

Well only thing is to try other branches namely the larger ones.Belfast branch I went to I have had no problems but like yourself the phones can be darn annoying if trying to sepak to someone in particular.

Regards:ok:

jamespollard

25th Oct 2004, 18:37

hiya
secured means that if the loan is defaulted or cannot be serviced in terms of repayments or covering the interest that the house could be repossessed.
guarantor means that the loan payments and not the whole amount are covered. so if on a monthly basis you cannot pay the debt, then the guarantor would have to pay this amount.
the bank may let you have some of the loan unsecured and some either secured or guaranteed.
i cannot over emphasis, having been a bank manager, that you should get independant legal advice before securing 50000 against someone elses house.
i have seen these loans go wrong, but the majority are paid back.

skyman68

11th Nov 2004, 14:13

this is foolish! sorry for my bad english.
actually Europe and UK is plenty of unemployed pilots with turbojet experience and you think by taking money from a bank, you will get a job and refund your loan...ah ah ah!

my parent asked me if i wanted to borrow more money for a type rating, and I said no.
do not borrow moeny, go on a modular training and start first with a PP in the US, or canada, or whatever.

Aerobat Boy

15th Nov 2004, 13:20

And so because one chap says that borrowing money is not the right way to do what you want for the rest of your life, he has to be right ? Wrong !!

If you want to borrow the money mate you borrow it. You could be dead in 5 years time or dying from some horrible illness. Borrow the money, realise your dream and then live each day as it comes because you never know what's around the corner.

Who wants to save for 3-5 years when you could do it now ! Who knows what might happen. Yes you could be impoverished but damned happy. I tried to save for advanced courses and you can do it if you switch off the part of your brain that has to deal with the same boring, crushingly depressing work, jobs, company, people, place, country day in day out. Physchologically, I think you are doing the best thing.

Different people, different ways of doing things. There's not a right or wrong way to do things, but there is a way that suits YOU and not the other guy !

You go for it and do what you feel is right. You'll love every minute of it if it meens you're going to get your dream !

scallaghan

2nd Dec 2004, 23:13

Hi

I went to HSBC and didnt think much of them. The person who saw me had to ring several departments to find out that they did a career loan for pilots.

To be honest I didnt think any of the banks offered good solutions. I even considered those sponsorship scheme but didnt like some of those either.

I completed my PPL back in Jan and have been doing Bristol ground school along with flying at weekends to build my hours.

Starting to save like mad, more so after christmas and am doing my night rating. Also starting to consider a CAA IMC rating to get a good ground for the JAA IR later on in my training.

Best to take you time, get a good grounding on the studies stage by stage and not get a large loan.

Cheers

Sean

mattd2k

3rd Dec 2004, 00:10

Without hijacking this thread, I was wondering if anyone who has been successful in applying for a Professional Studies Loan with HSBC has done so with any of the branches in the Brighton/Sussex area?

Were the staff clued up on the loan? I am currently doing my CPL in Florida, but am back in Shoreham in the New Year and think I may need to pay them a visit to see if they can help with some financing for my IR.

Any information would be appreciated.
Matt

EGAC_Ramper

3rd Dec 2004, 01:33

Although I'm going through the Belfast branch please feel free to PM me for details on the process I am going through,have been approved and sorting out the final details.

Regards

MorningGlory

3rd Dec 2004, 13:27

I read earlier in this post that a young enthusiastic guy has just got a £35K loan from HSBC, and then what WWW had to say with caution about repayments.

First of all £35K WILL NOT pay for all your modular training and living costs if you're not working during this time, no matter which school you go to or which ever country you part train for your JAR license.

Three years ago I started hour building in the states (already had a ppl), then continued the rest up to MCC part time while working. Even with being prudent, and working while training, my total all in costs for a JAA frozen ATPL and MCC was £55K. Be careful with regard to what the schools tell you, they are very convincing when you have really no idea yet how it all works..

With regard to repayments, I can assure you WWW, is not wrong. I'm now lucky enough to be flying a jet for a living and earning a good income, however, as WWW said, I'm paying a third of my income in training loan repayments, and drive a ten year old banger... Be careful my friend!

MG.

Grass strip basher

3rd Dec 2004, 17:17

Having worked in the world of finance for the past 5 years I am gobsmacked at the amounts of money wannabees are willing to borrow to chase their dream (£50-100,000.... geeez!:uhoh: )

WWW hit it right on the head... the repayments alone IF (and thats a big IF) you get a job will mean living at or on the bread line for years..... oh yeah but that doesn't matter because you are "flying"!

Geeez take the blinkers off and listen to some of the guys who post on Pprune who have been there/done that and are kind enough to spend their time and effort warning you of some of the potential pit falls.

Borrowing that amount of money = bonkers in my book..... go out get a job save a bucket load of money and use that to fund at least part of your training.... yeah you'll have to make sacrifices but you don't get anything in life unless you work at it... patience is a virtue as they say, and if you want it bad enough it will happen without your local branch of HSBC owning your ass for years to come ;)

scallaghan

5th Dec 2004, 09:44

I agree with the above comment. Best save cash.

Also someone mentioned if they visited a HSBC brancn in Sussex.

I live in West Sussex and when I was investigating the bank financing visited a local HSBC. I didnt find them that helpful, the member of staff I met was not aware of any scheme's for pilots had to make several phone calls to a head office.

Personally I am saving at work, hour building when possible and studying in the evenings for those modular ATPL exams.

Trying to avoid the bank :D

The question I have is whether it is really worth going from a PPL to f/ATPL. Reason I ask this is I see many flying instructors from a few years ago wanting airline work but not able to get it and not getting paid a great deal of cash.

If its about flying you enjoy, perhaps a PPL, IMC rating and a share in a PFA plane is the way to go. Personally I am border line at present but thought I would make that decision after seeing how I get on with the ATPL exams and reviewing the situation then.

Also I saw the chap in one of the above threads is also near Shoreham. I believe EFT (European Flight Training) are running out of that airport. I heard they are starting up U.K side CPL and IR training. I know at the moment some of their students from the U.S side finish their IR at Shoreham in the sim and last few hours in a twin.

I was considering using them to do my whole IR training here in the U.K and live nearby so I didnt to live down in Bournemouth.

I believe they take some of their students over to France for approaches and also down the Bournemouth.

crazypilot

6th Dec 2004, 19:02

Hi All,

I seem to be in the same boat as many here - always wanted to be a pilot, have a PPL (since I was 18, now 22) and currently in an office job which, even though it is totally to do with aviation, just does my head in through the shear boredom each day. Had an interview with an airline last week for a much more interesting job but unfortunately didn't get it. So still stuck here. Current salary ain't great - been with the company for the whole of 2 months since graduating from my MSc and have a hell of a lot of student loan to start repaying so taking out another loan just isn't an option at the moment.

I do sincerely hope that someday I will be able to start training properly to become a commercial pilot and just currently really envy one of my mates who became a pilot when he was 18 (10 years ago) on a cadet scheme, now earns a fortune, yet moans that his job is boring...he should see what I have to do on a daily basis.

Anyway, can I ask, what age did most of you guys now flying for airlines originally start up with it all - if you were me (at 22 yrs old), when would you realistically say to go for it before it is too late? My friend says not to bother - it's alright for him to say, but there is no way I can stick an office job for too long...

Cheers

CP

MorningGlory

8th Dec 2004, 10:57

You've got all the time in the world, don't be so impatient, I didn't even start my PPL until I was 24!

crazypilot

8th Dec 2004, 18:22

MorningGlory

Did you follow on with your ATPL straight after completing your PPL - i.e. when did you begin commercial pilot training?

Impatient --- with ADD, that's my middle-name !

Cheers

CP

Mouse Organ

9th Dec 2004, 13:18

Well, Crazypilot is the only one to at least ask the question. I am in this dialemma and this is my first post after registering....God, I sound like I'm at an AA meeting...anyways...

Age. That is the question is it not. I decided recently to train, I'm going to go the integrated route, as although every pilot/potential pilot has different opinions, one told me some airlines are starting to have policies of only hiring newbies that have done integrated courses and not modular, it's difficult to be sure. I digress. I'm not in the worst position by any means, but I'll still have to borrow, which, reading WWW's post, makes me worry about the time after training. I'm inclined to lean more to AeroBat's view of ******", if you want to do it, then do it. People will say that if you have the potential, then money should not be what stops you from realizing your dream.

As for me, well, at 28, 29 when I hopefully start to train, I don't have the luxury of time to save for 3-5 years, so I just have to, (excuse the language, but I'm not wrong here...) get ****** by a bank for 10 years. Though I am lucky in that my parents are likely to help me out, on top of having 8% or so in capital.

But what do I know, I haven't even started yet!!!

solouk

13th Dec 2004, 14:39

I'm not too bothered by age - I'm 32 and currently doing my PPL(H). I got divorced 6 years ago and was able to pocket about 10K from the house sale. 6 years later I finally decided what I wanted to do with the money after my girlfriend bought me a helicopter trial lesson for my birthday.

I am in a reasonably well payed job (although very dull), but it means that I can pay for the heli lessons without really touching my savings. My plan is to fund PPL, hour building (+ night rating, maybe IMC, etc) and distance learning ATPL groundschool through disposable income, supplimenting this from the 10K savings every now and again at those expensive times of the year (Xmas, holidays, etc.) This could take me 2 - 3 years making me 35ish.

If I can get through the APTL then the 10K ish savings will be used to pay for the ATPL(H) skills course. I will probably have to save for everything else beyond that (Multi Engined IR, MCC, FI, etc).

I know the job markets are very tough (more so for heli pilots), but if I cannot get a flying job (or the money runs out early), I still have my day job and can still fly privately.

Great thread by-the-way!

Solo

Captain Ratpup

14th Dec 2004, 13:24

Considering this thread has now grown over the past few weeks, I thought that I would give my feelings on how things have worked out since I actually started the thread and took out the £35,000 loan back in October. I realise and understand the concern that many have raised in previous threads and also in their PMs to me. But, when it comes to the big money question, there isn't a right or wrong way, only advantages and disadvantages to each method.

I'm now halfway through Bristol groundschool. As I chose to focus on this full-time and get it out of the way sooner rather than later, I've already noticed that I'm whizzing past many of the poor sods who have to juggle the tedious ATPLs with a proper job at the same time. Particularly as I'm a slow learner who finds the subjects hard enough as it is, I don't envy them. The only distraction I'm faced with is my girlfriend when she gets home from work. It's the only exercise I get all day ;) For once, I've got a huge degree of freedom in my life and this is something which feels great. If I want to meet someone for a pissup, I can work extra hard some days to leave room for a hungover day off. I've gone to visit friends in exotic places (like Newcastle) where I've been able to study during the day while they're at work. Basically, I feel very happy at the moment.

Despite the obvious concerns I have about the repayments, I do not for a second regret my decision. The repayments will be steep but, worst case, I have the luxury of a well-paid girlfriend to use as a safety net if need be (She knows this, by the way! The deal is that I have to propose to here when I qualify as an instructor!)

Those of you who read Flyer will be aware of Peter Moxham's comments regarding the recruiting trend for pilots at the moment. This guy knows his stuff and is generally advising people to get their backsides into gear. For this reason alone, I am happy that I didn't spend years saving up the cash, hating my job, procrastinating, getting old and then entering the market.

Furthermore, it looks like I've got myself an instructing job once I'm done with the training, so there's already light at the end of the tunnel!

I really appreciated the comments that were made and also all the advice I received on the matter. One thing I'm doing at the moment is writing a web-diary or 'blog' about my progress with the groundschool and, eventually CPL, IR and FI(R). Do people want to have access to this? Would it be of benefit to you to read about my thoughts on issues I'm encountering? Let me know.

In the meantime, all the best and, whatever you choose, make the right choice for yourself.

Captain Ratpup

The Butler

15th Dec 2004, 17:34

Pretty crazy thread this has turned out to be Captain Ratpup, bet you weren't expecting all this!

spitfire747

15th Dec 2004, 18:59

Captain Ratpup

Good luck to you.. you have an attitude alot of people wish to have...work hard over christmas, do not get distrated by granny and the sherry...

Spit :ok:

Grass strip basher

16th Dec 2004, 08:14

Sounds like you are well on your way Captain... would be great to hear about your trials and tribulations during your training so be sure to stick them on Pprune

Good luck with the exams:ok:

Wee Weasley Welshman

16th Dec 2004, 08:27

Yeag but, this is the good bit. This is the life changing, feeling positive, nursery slopes of the challenge ahead. You are bound to feel chipper at this stage. I certainly did.

Two and a bit years down the line when you are still only earning £800 a month as a flying instructor, the IR is about to lapse, all the airlines are still not interested and those repayments keep knocking on the door every month... possibly not feeling so chipper maybe.

A Blog would be an interesting and useful exercise. I almost think we should have PPRuNe hosted Blogs for people going through training and job hunting... Maybe we'll look into that.

Good luck with it all. The market is starting to move so maybe your timing is good. Hope so.

Cheers

WWW

MorningGlory

16th Dec 2004, 17:49

Ha ha.... It's like reading from ratpup exactly how I felt 3 years ago, and then the wise words of the experienced guys like www, warning of the pitfalls.

Well without the sometimes unreasonable blinded optimism of the wannabe which is what I had during the same, then I guess I wouldn't be flying shiney jets now.

Still you have to heed the advice of the ones that know better sometimes in order not to drown...

Mouse Organ

17th Dec 2004, 13:48

I have to agree with MorningGlory. Advice from the likes of www is always welcome, but sometimes, you have to say to yourself, "whatever....", and get on with it regardless.

Knowing that the bank is going to own your arse for 10, and that you have absolutely no idea what you'll do at the other end of training, means if you dwell on these dilemmas (you all know them; modular vs integrated; saving vs borrowing; type rating vs instructor etc etc), you'll never get anywhere.

I suppose it all boils down to the kind of person you are and how you are affected by Ratpups/www's comments. I for one am much wiser reading through the threads here, but still see little difference in the training route I wanted to go before joining this superbly informative forum. I have my personal circumstances, and they haven't changed, so it's unlikely my training plans will either.

With that said - that makes my comments somewhat redundant, as by that logic, people will still do what they beleive in their hearts is the right path for them, right or wrong.

MO