Can I Log P1 if...????

[P1 Forever]

Hi everyone,

If I go on a unfamiliar route on C172/PA28 and wish to carry a instructor with me to observe or if you like as a safety pilot then could I still log the flight as P1 solo flight - me being in command at all times and doing everything or would I have to log it as dual and therefore would not count towards the 100 hrs P1 for CPL???

Thanks!

P1

[FlyingForFun]

P1,

Either of these is legal. However, you must agree it with the instructor beforehand. It could be important if there's a disagreement as to the correct course of action... particularly if there's an emergency, for example, when time becomes critical.

If you log PUT, your instructor is captain, and he has the final say.

If you both agree beforehand that you will log P1 then the instructor can not log the time at all. In this case, the instructor can not tell you what to do at any point during the flight - he can only make friendly suggestions which, as captain, you may choose to either follow or ignore.

FFF
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[Justiciar]

You can log it as P1 or nothing. You cannot log dual unless you are undergoing some sort of training for a licence or rating, when you would log Pu/t. You cannot of course log P2 as it is a single pilot operation, being a private flight. P1/s is reserved for skills tests.

[P1 Forever]

Hi there,

Yeah, I see what you both are saying. For instance, if the instructor is willing not to log hours for himself/herself then would it be ok if I log it as " Pilot-in-command under supervision " and would this count towards the 100 hrs P1 needed for CPL?

thanks.

Hi,

Just missed your post by a few minutes Justiciar.

Am still a little confused....what will I do?

[FlyingForFun]

Justicar - you said: "You cannot log dual unless you are undergoing some sort of training for a licence or rating." Where did you get this from?

I will grant you that, according to the table of how to log time in Section A, Appendix B of LASORS, this is the only time that PUT is mentioned. But let's be realistic here. There are times when a pilot receives training, not for a license or rating, but because he needs training. This training must go in his logbook. How is he then supposed to log it? An excellent example would be a pilot who has not flown for, say, 12 months, but whose license and class rating are both still valid. Clearly he must undergo some training. Let's assume that his first flight after he completes the training is to be with passengers. In this case, he must log his training, otherwise he would be in breach of the 90-day rule. How is he to log this training, if not as PUT?

P1, you asked about logging PICUS. According to LASORS, there are only two times you may log PICUS. The first is for multi-crew aircraft, and therefore not relevant. The second is for a successful skills test, which is also not relevant. So my answer would be No, you can not.

Others would point to my response to Justicar, where I have pointed out that there are times when the list in LASORS does not cover the situation adequately, and would use my own argument against me to suggest that PICUS is acceptable in this case. My answer to that is that they may be right, or they may not. Personally, I wouldn't want to be the one who has to argue the case with the CAA when they refuse to issue my license. Or, even worse, argue the case with my insurance company when I make a claim, and their response is that I was not insured because I told them that I had more P1 time than I actually had according to their interpretation of the rather vague rules. Far better to err on the side of safety, and log this time as PUT - that way no one can argue that you have quoted them misleading times.

I say this every time this question arises, and I will say it again, but it really is about time the CAA clarified this situation, in writing, somewhere where we can all access it, once and for all. The argument has been going on for far longer than I've been flying, and it would take very little effort from the CAA to put it to bed forever.

FFF
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['I' in the sky]

P1 Forever,

The one thing you cannot log it as is PIC under supervision.

It can be P1 if the instructor is happy not to log the time as PIC otherwise it is dual. No other options.

[P1 Forever]

Thanks Guys for getting back to me!

I am quite clear about it now, I think.

I can log P1 and be in total command of the aircraft as long as the instructor does NOT log any time and basically acts as a passenger, however as captain I can ask for advice from the instructor beside me but it is up to myself whether I carry it out.

Can we all agree with this statement?

Thanks for the posts chaps, cheers!!!

[FlyingForFun]

P1 - I agree.

FFF
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[Justiciar]

Where did you get this from?

Just to come back on this point, it is under JAR FCL 1 at paragraph 1.080. To be fair, FCL does not talk in terms of Pu/t or P1/s but the effect is the same: dual time when under instruction for a licence or rating is logged as such: what we term Pu/t.

A pilot on a check ride whether because it is a new aircraft or because he is rusty is not training for a licence or rating. It could under FCL 1 be "PICUS" - Pilot in Command Under Supervision, but this designation is down to the discretion of the authority in the country concerned, and my understanding is that P1/s is only used in the UK for a successful skills test for a licence or rating. It counts as Pilot in Command anyway for the purpose of any qualifying hours. Safety pilot should be logged as P1 and in this case the instructor cannot log anything because in effect he is just a well qualified passenger.

It seems we all agree:ok:

[redsnail]

I won't get into the debate about P1 or not but isn't the purpose of the 100 hours P1 just that? To go out and get some experience of making command decisions by yourself?

By having an instructor there you know he/she isn't going to want to die. Therefore you won't really get the full benefit. Leave the instructor at home, let him/her go and fly with a student.

You've now got a licence to go and learn. Part of learning is making errors and fixing them. By all means, run your flight plan by your instructor but go and do the flight taking full 100% responsibility for the safe outcome of that flight.

Now if the wx goes bad, you'll have to make the decision to do something about it early. Likewise the navigation. By asking your instructor, you won't ever be confident that you can make a decision - assess it - change or continue.

You'll be a more confident pilot if you fly this trip by yourself.