The real issue in Aviation

[missy]

Now that NAS is off to the Federal Court I think that the real issue needs to be brought the table for debate.

Without question, the real issue is the charging regime. The airports have all been sold to the highest bidder and it would be difficult (and very costly) to drag them back to public ownership.

Why not abolish all enroute, terminal and ARFF charging for flights that depart from AND land at an Australian airport? Remove any levies (including GST) that exist on Avgas, Avtur, etc.

The Federal Government would pick up the tabs for internal flights as it is clearly in the public interest for aviation to be as affordable as possible. Everyone in Australia benefits either directly or indirectly from the current aviation infrastructure and would benefit even further if flying became cheaper.

The Federal Governemt should also fund the installation (and maintenance) of transponder and ADSB units in all aircraft on the Australian register (sorry Boyd).

CASA would determine the services to be provided in which airspace. The air traffic control service provider(s) would then administer the airspace and provide the necessary services. There would be clearly defined thresholds for the establishment and disestablishment of control services. This includes airspace and tower services. Third parties (local councils, Industry, Military) could request and pay for a higher level of service.

The charging regime would still exist for those that don't fit into the definition of an internal flight. The charging regime would need to be approved by the ACCC so that the charges reflect the real cost. There would need to be safeguards put in place so that current technologies were always employed by the service provider(s) as these would need to be funded by the Federal Government.

[tobzalp]

I completely agree. Also roll all of the CASA, AsA and SAR etc services all into the one body ala USA to stop duplication and differing goals.

[Uncommon Sense]

Simulataneous Related Thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145540)

[Ooooh : Have I just created a new acronym?]

[Deaf]

tobzalp

The new organization would need an acronym how about:

DCA

[The Voice]

Deaf

how about: DCA

hahahaha I think there's some stationary around still - save on re-branding costs!! :E

[Obiwan]

I completely agree. Also roll all of the CASA, AsA and SAR etc services all into the one body ala USA to stop duplication and differing goals.

A good start.

Then make them a government department, not a 'government business enterprise' that's expected to make profits, pay returns to the 'shareholders' (ie the govt), bonuses to management etc.

Make the first line of their charter "Foster aviation in all its forms in Australia"

Nationalise the airports - at least all the GA ones. Selling them all off just pays a future windfall to property developers.

Govt assistance to companies trying to manufacture local aircraft like Gippsland Aviation and Whitney (who? Check the latest AOPA mag - they're trying to make a trainer to replace the C152s and PA38s)

[Horatio Leafblower]

This thread is making too much sense and will be shut down for sure.

Look at the average service that we are now paying for; IFR DTI, Airways fees, documents, forecasts, and landing fees at the same old airports, not to mention $135/hour for CASA jerks to review your ops manual and pick out spelling errors ($3,370 for a 1 aircraft flying school).

Can you think of any way they have improved in the last 10 years for the fees we have paid?

Would the users of the Pacific Hwy (not the freeway) pay an ever-increasing toll for the use of the same old winding goat track? The NRMA would never let it happen; it is a respected and oft-quoted lobby group that works to the wider benefit of its members.

Airports and air traffic systems are PUBLIC INFRASTRUCTURE and must be financed from the PUBLIC PURSE if we want the services to survive the next 20 years.

Apart from isolated specific examples, roads are not privatised. The privatised toll roads are (excuse the pun) streets ahead of their 'free' alternative... but there IS an alternative.

No such luxury in Aviation.

There is only one ATC, there is only one rulebook, and there is (generally) only one airport where you want to go. WHICH IS GREAT.... if we are all sharing the costs amongst the users and the public purse.

When he's cornered JOHN ANDERSON says the ALP introduced the policies we have now... but who has perpetuated the cash-cow mentality, Ando?

Aviation is being milked for all it is worth and AOPA started the rot when it agreed to the cost-recovery models in the 1980s and 90s.

Rather than resign from AOPA perhaps we should all join up and MAKE OUR VOICE COUNT.

[Ultralights]

how about an Australia wide day of action! simply no one flies within australia! or we all decide to have a great big fly-in to Canberra and a nice big party on the lawns of Parliment house!
:ok: :cool:

(me puts on fire retardent flame suit and runs away):}


On a more serious note, Aviation is an Infrastructure Industry! and should be treated as such. as i said before, it will have to continue in its decline to levels where it begins to effect other industrys, and have a measurable impact on the economy before any real action is taken. :* :{

Govt assistance to companies trying to manufacture local aircraft like Gippsland Aviation and Whitney (who? Check the latest AOPA mag - they're trying to make a trainer to replace the C152s and PA38s)

There are quite a few very sucessful aircraft manufacturing companies already operating in OZ! (manufactoring Recreational aircraft, not GA) The Jabiru company in Bundaburg is making a fortune and selling aircraft all over Europe and the US, as well as having an ever growing fleet in OZ, these aircraft are perfect CHEAP alternatives to New Cessnas/Pipers or whatever their replacements might be, their line now Includes 4 seat aircraft cruise 125Kts, a perfect replacement for most cessna/piper trainers at quite literally 1/4 of the costs! ( a new 4 seat jab will set you back only $100K a 2 seat standard Jabiru will only cost you $50K) and not to mention very cheap running costs compared to a GA equiv.
cheaper, because they are NOT regulated by CASA and its boat anchor business killing regulations!

[Pass-A-Frozo]

I still can't understand how AsA are aiming for a 9.75% return on assets. Darwin is returning just over 19% and they are raising fees. How does that work?

[ITCZ]

You are all a bunch of bloody pinko bolsheviks, state owned infrastructure, you will all be the death of this great nation. Talking about going on strike, my goodness!

That communist agitator Ben Chifley, he nationalised the banks, and look what good that did......

[DirtyPierre]

ITZC,

Was your post "tongue in cheek"? Hope so.

I think the general consensus is to treat aviation infrastructure like roads and railways, ie. that they be a government owned and payed for service and facilities. Like health, education, railways and roads.

I'm not sure why this is being,

bloody pinko bolsheviks,

as the FAA in the USA are a state owned and run organisation.

In countries where they have privatised and/or commercialised such organisations there have been significant issues and problems.

Over to you blue leader.

[Woomera]

This MUST stop!!! :mad:

We won't have common sense in here!

Woomera

[Horatio Leafblower]

I told you, missy, he's on to you like a flash.:hmm:

[missy]

With this thread and other parallel threads running, I wonder who will take the baton and run with it!

[PLovett]

Certainly wouldn't object to the resurrection of DCA, BUT only if they bring back the vast amount of expertise and knowledge that walked out the door when a certain political icon decided to merge it with the Department of Transport. :yuk:

Also have to agree that the amount of fees and charges that GA has to pay is squeezing the profitability out of the industry, especially when CASA are determined that unless you invest $millions in your aircraft you have to spread those costs over a small number of seats. :mad:

Aviation is an essential industry in a country the size of Australia with as few road and rail connections as we have. However, our governments of all persuasions refuse to recognise the fact. They appear to operate on the basis that if its aviation then they must be wealthy and can afford to pay. :\

And what do we do about it? Nothing :( We can't even get a common front together preferring to rip into each other because we dare have a different viewpoint. :confused: While this continues to happen the politicians will continue to ignore us in the absolute confidence that nothing will come back to bite them. :mad:

[Horatio Leafblower]

Who can spell 'branch stacking', boys and girls?

This may not be a popular suggestion here BUT...

...back when I first started flying about 15 years ago AOPA represented ALL of GA, from the private boys up to MEIFR CHTR. The organisation has self-destructed since then but it already has the infrastructure and the public profile that 'aviation reform' desperately need.

I think the fact that membership was $40 or so also helped keep the membership high, as opposed to the $124 of today.

If the General Aviation INDUSTRY was more thoroughly represented on the AOPA board we might be able to make ourselves heard, rather than pander to the dogma of the DSs and BMs that screwed us all with 'user pays'.

Join AOPA and then ring Ron Bertram and tell him why you joined, and what you want.

[404 Titan]

Horatio Leafblower

Yep lets see:

DS & BM pushed user pays because it will benefit GA. Result: GA is now f****d more than before with costs going through the roof because of user pays. I said it to DS face at an AOPA rally meeting at the NQAC in Cairns in the mid nineties that there isn’t enough competition in Australia to make user pays work. In usual DS fashion he quoted some BS about how it works in the USA and attacked the man (me) instead of the question. Today he is peddling more drivel about airspace. He isn’t an expert in this field and the media still don’t get it. Unfortunately people of his mentality still control AOPA. These people don’t listen. They tell. They don’t negotiate, they dictate. I for one want nothing to do with them until the current membership wake up to this and get rid of them. Until then they are irrelevant.

[Chimbu chuckles]

User pays really is just the straw breaking the camel's back. GA VFR ops pay virtually nothing save some GST on Fuel in terms of DOCs...GST on parts/labour has just made an expensive hobby more so...it was NEVER cheap.

GA is history for two primary reasons;

Competition for the leisure $...boating is much more fun for much less aggravation...expence being broadly similar when it comes to ownership issues.

Vastly expanded route networks, frequencies and vastly cheaper tickets on the part of airlines of whatever description.

The former has been the death knell of classic recreational aviation, with diehards heading for alternative aviation pursuits...and a few real braindead diehards (like moi) still fiddling around with 'real aeroplanes'.

The remainder has seen the death knell of the vast majority of the charter industry, at least in the J curve.

Unless you're a complete aviation nut (who can't swim) it's not worth the aggravation. What would most people prefer to do? Spend a day on a nice boat with beer, wine, yummy nibblies, girls in bikinis, swimming, lazing in the sunshine....or bouncing around for an hour or two in a noisy aeroplane with nowhere really to go, very few (if any) nice facilities on airports (so a cab ride to the nearest restaurant/pub where someone can't have a drink anyway).

Big money went to the boating industry...hence the beautifull yacht clubs, and in gaunty's words the aeroclubs in there WW2 era buildings and club member paint jobs just meander along in an air of disbelief.

[U2]

I think that we all know that G.A can't go forward in its current form. There is nothing wrong (per se) with G.A. The problem is that our way of life is changing faster than possible ever, especially in materialistic ways. G.A will go on in its current form....neither government nor community are going to invest in it in this country...look at U.S.A ...commander aircraft just fell over again, it was financied by an asian company!

The airlines in Australia and indeed the world are thriving, mainly for several reasons in my opinion
1 airlines get alot of government support because it serves the interest of the polys
2 it is a convenient form of transport for the rich between citeis (duhh), but I'll get back to that
3 Airline manufacturers, airline managment and investors did not stop trying to impove the product when 1990 came around (unlike G.A). The airline industry has been reinventing itself ...just as all parts of our society have done in only 15 years. 50 years ago everyone used to buy their milk and fruit & veg from the delivery cart (or van) from there front yard...now we would rather go to a shopping centre.


Yes, there is too much competion, yes too many pilots, too etc. It will never change.


What individuals need to do is invest in the future of G.A, NOT sustain the life of G.A. G.A in its current form will go no where, because that is the attitude of the industry.

If industry (indeed individuals) tried really hard to change in a big way, then maybe we would see the wider community and the government support us.

A shining example of what I mean is recreational flying....new aircraft...flexible laws and private investment...R.A is only concerned about doing it's own thing.

My truest opinion is that if G.A reinvested in a new direction, for the benefit of itself, not the consumer nor the community, then we may see everyone else get on board, if not then it will be an exiting adventure.

Who would of guest 50 years ago that smoking tobaco would be of any interest than to the guy who invested modern smoking?

Who would have guest that messing around with electricity, nourts and dashes would amount to microsoft or the www. Bill gates from what I've heard was just a nerd who liked too stuff around with electronic boxes?


G.A should reinvest itself, purely for its own means.

Personally, if i won lotto I would design my own aircraft...purely for my own pleasure. One that could takeoff from a football field...be able fly as easy as a car is to drive....be able to lisen to my CD and even be able to take a nap in flight. That would be my dream!

DO YOUR OWN THING! AND STOP WHINGING.


...I might just go out and get me a lotto ticket$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


U2

[bushy]

U2
YOU ARE RIGHT