So what happens AFTER NERC "O" date?

[BEXIL160]

....according to a letter from Rod Edington (BA) to Mr. Cheese & Ham NOTHING it's business as usual for the airlines. Indeed according to the BA exec:

[quote]the travelling public will not notice any difference <hr></blockquote>

Well, no, not if they think that two hour delays are the norm, they won't be aware that anything has altered, will they?

It still seems to me that the airlines, and airports that are in the London FIR, have not been fully appraised of the fact that WEF from 27th Jan 2002, Flow rates on all the Swanwick sectors will be CUT by 30% , for at least 10 days. The rates will not be raised for a considerable time thereafter. (Up to SIX WEEKS)

Currently (winter) traffic levels are low, but not such that they are less than 70% of Target sector flow. Even if they were, this would mean the retention of the restricted rates for a longer period.

It would be unwise to raise rates above the reduced levels until the sectors had been tested at that lower capacity . If they were raised, you might well end up with a situation where a sector was open to its full declared capacity, without ever being tested at, or near, that level for real. Not a safe situation.

Now, I am not being negative at about NERC/Swanwick or LACC, whatever you want to call it. It is a step in the right direction. But CAUTION NEEDS TO BE EXERCISED. Go too fast too soon and the wheels could fall off.

Comments?

Rgds BEX

A footnote. I've posted this here, rather than in the NATS forum as I believe the subject affects, and needs, a wider audience.

[Bigears]

Historically, higher management have been misled about how NERC (sorry, Swanwick <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> ) is the best thing since sliced bread. Maybe nothing has changed and Mr Cheese & Ham honestly believes what he has written as thats whats been told to him <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
Time to weed out some of the layers of management?

[no sig]

Bexil
I have just attended a briefing today on the TSF reductions on O day and after and I agree, it will be anything but normal for the airlines and their passengers. We will of course be letting our passengers know the good news that NATS new Centre has just opened and, please bear with us while our ATC colleges bed in the new system. Sorry, but we may have some delays and extended flight times.

I trust NATS will use this opportunity to proudly announce the new centre and advise the travelling public that safety, of course must come first, and to please understand the reason for the delays.

[Avoiding__Action]

Is there a contingency plan in place for if NERC actually works!!!! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[BEXIL160]

No Sig....

Thanks for that. My concern was that the airlines were being promised something by NATS Management that was not true, and indeed not possible.

To find a letter from BA to NATS implying that there will be no impact suggests that either:

(1) BA haven't been told the Truth

(2) Mr. Cheese & Ham doesn't know the truth

(3) Mr Edington and Cheese & Ham have been mis-advised by their people.

My concern is that the ATCOs and ATSAs that actually provide the service would be the first to be blamed for the inevitable safety related flow delays, NATS managers having seemed to be less than honest with the airlines about the serious impact these measures WILL have.

Rgds BEX.

[Flap40]

Just a quickie.

Which sectors will Swanwick control? Is it all of the London FIR or just part of it?

(I'm mainly interested in the North Sea)

[BEXIL160]

Others can add more detail if you want it (I'm not a NSEA expert) but Swanwick will be responsible for everything in the London FIR that LATCC AREA control does now. (i.e. most of the London FIR Airways system, with the exception of the important bits covered by colleagues at Manchester, and Terminal Control, London).

Oh, and London Information is relocating to Swanwick as well... on the Afternoon of 26th Jan.

Rgds BEX

[Flap40]

I'll take a book to read then!

[Heading 365]

What has been missed so far is that on 24th January Europe goes RVSM and is unilaterally reducing flow rates by 25%. So the delays caused by the introduction of NERC on the 27th will hardly show.

Lucky old NATS managmentget away with it again! <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[BEXIL160]

err.. not TOTALLY true...

Maastricht intend to reduce their flow rates by 25%, but many EUR states aren't being quite so draconian, and SOME aren't adding extra flow at all.

You can get a full list from CFMU but some highlights:

France : Most ACCs flows reduced by 10 to 15% for 10 to 15 days

Germany : ACCs flows reduced by up to 10% for 7 to 10 days

Spain : MAX flow restriction is 20%

CFMU are also making VERY CLEAR in all their bulletins relating to the introduction of EUR RVSM that UK restriction are due to NERC, NOT RVSM.

EUROCONTROL are extremely keen (and rightly so) that RVSM be seen as a step forward in increasing capacity. They do not want the UKs introduction of NERC and the subsequent delays that are inevitable to be blamed on their project.

Rgds BEX

[White Rose]

Hasn't anybody thought about Wednesday nights? Shutdowns are going to be a total nightmare. With flow restrictions needed to get the traffic levels down to acceptable rates we are going to see massive delays, possibly running into Thur.

[Lon More]

BEX - re Maastricht rates. Dunno where you got 25% from. According to everything I've seen it's max. 15% for the first few days.. .Our biggest worry is with the fact that we were only informed today that you required verbal estimates i.s.o. ACT exchange; previous experience shows that it can take us several minutes to pass you one estimate.. .Oh, the reintroduction after several years of a FLAS on N.Sea due "software problems" ??? at NERC has lead to a slight sense of humour failure at Maastricht and in Copenhagen - 40, if you read this better make it "War and Peace" or something prophetic, like "The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire".. .The only plus point that I can see for Sunday is that Radar, Radar is still on leave, although probably lurking.

. .[ Lon More - just an ATCO ]

[BEXIL160]

Hello Lon..

The minus 25% figure for Maastricht comes off the EUR RVSM web pages, and the flow bulletins I've seen which detail all the flow that's being imposed.

I agree it does seem a bit harsh for the introduction of RVSM, but if the UK experience of "early" introduction of RVSM last year is anything to go by, you'll be able to raise the rates pretty quickly. RVSM works, and works well IMHO.

As for estimates in lieu of ACT / OLDI messages this should only be for the period from 0001-0330 (-ish) on 27th Jan. By 0330 at the latest NERC should be up and running with all the OLDI link enabled.

I've said before I'm not a NSEA expert so can't comment on FLAS, but will say that Swanwick ain't perfect by a long way, but it's the only system we've got (not by choice). I understand the frustration faced by AMS/ Copenhagen / and yourselves, and I symphathise, really I do. Imagine what it's like for us who actually have to operate it!.

Seriously though please address any probs to the NERC Management, they apparently have a system for dealing with just this type of thing. A very large dustbin. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Anyway to reiterate. WE are just as frustrated as you. Hopefully we can make it work a bit better when we finally get to grips with it this weekend. No promises though.

Best rgds (esp to RADAR RADAR!)

BEX

[eyeinthesky]

Whilst not necessarily a NSEA 'expert' I am at least valid on the sector, so perhaps I can give some sort of help with the FLAS issue.

NSEA under NERC simply does not work without some form of FLAS. The problem is the crossover between UM604 and UY70/UL602/UL74 at BEENO/TOPPA. Because of the time parameters for electronic transfer of details between MAAS and London, there is insufficient warning of conflicts between UM604 westbound (i.e. southbound) traffic and UL602/UL74 traffic westbound. As in theory sectors 11 and 33 are separate (although we can't open them both together due insufficient staff!) and the boundary is only a few miles north of BEENO the problem is that 33 might have traffic which is OK for him at TOPPA but a ringer with something at BEENO and no level available to change it. So the use of a FLAS provides sorm form of initial separation at BEENO/TOPPA.

Having just done my farcical final OCT module, I can confidently inform you that the MAAS westbound FLAS levels are 260, 280, 300, 340 and 400, while Copenhagen can use 260, 320, 360, 380 and 400. Maastricht have moaned enough that they have been allowed to request the use of FL310 (an eastbound level under RVSM) at certain times of heavy demand. This screws up the eastbound traffic on five other sectors (Scottish, LUS, Clacton, 10 and 11) but hey, who cares!

I have a feeling that NSEA will be the fly in the ointment with regard to the NERC system, but we shall see... <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[no sig]

As an airline ops bod, I'd be curious to know how NERC validated ATCO's and ATSA's feel about this weekend. Confident?

[5milesbaby]

I would say 'excited', and I am confident it'll run, weather its running correctly or we just get on with all it has to offer remains to be seen. I think things should go reasonably smoothly, and if NO hitches at all occur, then fantastic, hats off to all those involved, they will certainly have earnt it.

[BEXIL160]

5MB.... Yep, I agree. One way or another Swanwick will be open for business this weekend and yes, I'm looking forward to it.

As for the system, well that's another story. Until we all gain some familiarity with the equipment and it's "features" we're going to have to take it slowly slowly.

Rgds BEX

[Lon More]

BEX, having seen your posts on another topic, i guess that NERC is not going to get off to the best of starts - and i thought we had some idiots here.Still you can't expect much in a building made back to front. I hope that the verbal estimates are only for the first few hours; Nick S. gave me the impression it was for a few days. .I got the figure of 15% from the Team Briefing Sheet, CFMU is not the most reliable institution.. .Eye, I understand your frustration, we have exactly the same problems with traffic crossing. Unfortunately the sometimes cavalier attitude of the negotiators from your side leaves a lot to be desired, being more a list of demands rather than a starting point for discussion - the minutes were once sent out with the UK side's notes still attached saying, " This is what we agreed, however we will do it as we originally wanted."

Anyway, Good Luck to all of you as you boldly go where no man has ever gone before.

[NERC Dweller]

BEXIL - I agree that things should be taken Very Softly Softly. NERC is so different from what you the ATCO/ATSAs are used to that it will take time for you to settle down.

Is it's real life there is always something that can wrong!

To everyone coming to NERC - Good Luck <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[ 23 January 2002: Message edited by: NERC Dweller ]</p>

[eyeinthesky]

Lon More: Thanks for your input. With regard to the negotiators, all I can say is that I am not surprised that they put your backs up. They do ours, as well. There was as far as I am aware NO consultation of operational staff before they came up with this FLAS and more often than not the first we hear of any negotiation is when a new SI or TOI is issued with 'Instructions to ATCOs'. Still, with Pat the Hat in charge things can only get better...!! <img src="eek.gif" border="0">

On a related issue to NSEA, I wonder whether the airlines have been made fully aware of the implications of the staff shortages which prevent us from opening both Sector 11 and 33 at the same time. The TSF for each sector when split is in the mid 30s per hour, giving an hourly capacity of approx 64 aircraft per hour for this part of the London ACC. However, when they are bandboxed (as they have to be as we have insufficient staff) the combined capacity is in the mid 30s. So what this actually means is that the NSEA sector is planned to run for the foreseeable future at a little above 50% of its published (?promised?) capacity. But the airlines are assured that delays will be short term only...

Thanks for the good wishes.. I'm sure it will all go swimmingly!!

[no sig]

Sorry I'm just simple airline ops bod, could some kindly explain 'Bandboxing' to me.

Thanks

[BEXIL160]

Bandboxing

The art of combining two (or more) ATC sectors and running them as one.

Usually done when traffic levels are low enough not to require the sectors to be "Split". E.G. Nights.

Required(esp at Swanwick)because staff shortages mean that there aren't enough qualified controllers to actually "man" the split sectors. Serious flow control is then required to keep the bandboxed (combined) sector controller from becoming overloaded.

Okay that's what "bandboxing" is, but in all honesty I do not know the origin of the term I've been using for over 20 years. I never thought to ask. Anyone out there care to enlighten me? Silver Fox? You still around? Help.

Rgds BEX

[no sig]

Thanks BEX, now I know.

[Northumbrian]

'Bandboxing'. The word 'bandbox' I originally thought was fairly modern, perhaps having its origins in the early 20th. century coinciding with the advent of radio. In fact, according to the Greater Oxford Dictionary, it comes to us from the 17th. century, first being coined in 1631. It generally means 'neatness' or 'pristine'. Here are a couple of lines from the dictionary :-

1869 _Mark Twain' Innoc. Abroad xxxviii. 410 They are all_ exceedingly neat and cleanly_as if they were just out of a band-box.

967 V. H. Gielgud Conduct of Member xx. 160 She was wearing a dressing-gown_but preserved her usual band-box quality of neat fastidiousness.

So, perhaps when we'bandbox' sectors we're 'neatening or tidying up'.

[b.w.k]

Gosh, what an example of what an education can do for you.

I always thought that the old fashioned (if 50 years can be called that) term/slang for a frequency was "band". So by band boxing we are putting bands in the same box.

But I like Norths explanation far more. :)

[OLNEY 1 BRAVO]

Bexil - looking at your original post, I see that at least easyJet seem to be aware of the position and are advising their customers through their Website.

<a href="http://www.easyjet.com/en/news/20020124_01.html" target="_blank">http://www.easyjet.com/en/news/20020124_01.html</a>

[BEXIL160]

Lots of "Thank you's":

Northumbrian and IThink, thank you for adding to my education. You're never to old to learn something.

Olney1B.. At Last. The message does seem to be getting thru.

Rgds BEX

[opsbod]

The BBC is finally reporting the switch over:

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1782000/1782000.stm" target="_blank">BBC News</a>

<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_1781000/1781780.stm" target="_blank">News Comment</a>

Not the best publicity for NATS and all fairly negative, can't help thinking that with a bit of pre-emptive work NATS could have spun the event better.

[egll 28r]

Have a good "O" time - -I am sure it will be fine not withstanding all of the problems and "management" you have had - -expertise and being just the brilliant controllers you are, will see you through.

[BOAC]

I fully echo the sentiments expressed by egll 28r.

If any can steer it through it will be the UK controllers. Fingers crossed for the equipment!

I'm 'up and about' Sunday - Tuesday, so hopefully there will not be too much shared pain.

BA Forum moderator

PS White Rose spoke earlier in this thread of 'Wednesday/shutdowns' - can anyone give a drivers' precis of what these are please?

[ 26 January 2002: Message edited by: BOAC ]</p>

[5milesbaby]

Shutdowns at Latcc (West Drayton), now called something different at Lacc (Swanwick). This is when the engineers turn off the computer that generates all our information, so we have to go 'manual'. All it means is that the estimates to other ACC's and agencies have to be passed by phone as the 'computer link' no longer works. Also, all the radar tools, such as conflict alert, are lost. If it goes on for some time, it can also lead to our flight strips being written by hand, as most of the first 4 hours of traffic have 'skeleton' strips printed where we just fill in Squalk, FL, and times.

The computer has to be shut down to clear out all the files. When pending plans aren't activated, they are still kept in the memory, so eventually it gets full. It happens usually on Wednesday nights between 1030pm and 3am, just as its getting quiet at night, and back on to take the Atlantic fallout around 330am. Sometimes they happen on other nights too, as the engineers also use them to install and update the software.

Hope that helps, and hope I got it all right too!!!!!

[Co ordination unaffected]

Erm, can I get back to you tomorrow?

[Flight Plan Fixer]

5 miles...a perfect summing up, well done!. .But keep those manual procs and the green pen ready in case things go SWIMMingly...

[BEXIL160]

I have watched the media today trot out their pieces on the opening of Swanwick tomorrow and they've all picked up on one thing. . . [quote]Delays will occur for the first ten days <hr></blockquote>

Much as I am positive about going to Swanwick and making it work properly, flow control will probably be needed for at least 30 days , not just the first ten. We are not going to impose a 30% cut and then suddenly go to full sector capacity overnight (are we?)

There is a further serious issue which bears repeating. Until each sector has been tested at those lower capacities it would be unwise to raise the flow rates higher. With some sectors at this time of year having lower demand anyway, it could be some time before they are tested even at a reduced capacity.

Indeed, given the schedule published earlier, it could be six weeks before flow is raised to normal levels. A point that seems to have been conveniently forgotten by the NATS spin doctors. I only state this here (again) as it is the truth, and i believe that our customers, the airlines, would rather have the unpalatable facts than the spin trotted out by NATS management.

I am very much looking forward to working at Swanwick, a pleasant environment, and when I have some experience of, and confidence in, the system I'll have no problem in upping the sector capacities. This will NOT HAPPEN overnight, or in 10 days. Sorry, but this is a SAFETY issue.

Any NATS managers out there courageous enough to comfirm that what I'm saying is true? I'm waiting.....

Rgds BEX

[cwatters]

Oh bother, I gotta fly Frankfurt to Cincinnati next week. Are any delays likely to effect this route or won't the riples spread out this far?

I could have flown out last week had I known. Wonder why this warning go out earlier?

[BEXIL160]

Yes, I'm afraid it probably will.

The flow measures were agreed late LAST YEAR (Nov, I think) and publicised here. NATS management have continually played down the impact of the introduction of Swanwick. You'd have to ask them WHY.

The operational controllers (like Me) need some time to get used to the new equipment and procedures and for safety's sake, we need to keep the traffic levels down until be get some experience and confidence in the new kit. You might gather from this that our training on the new system has been somewhat basic.

Sorry for the delays, it gives me no pleasure to hold any aircraft on the ground longer than absolutely necessary, but please understand it's for your own safety.

Rgds BEX

[Ahh-40612]

Hi all. .At the end of the final day's "training" we were told by that tall grey bird that stands all day in water waiting for a fish, that every 10 days, subject to all parties agreeing, a 5% increase in flow rates will be implemented. My maths may be rusty but that implies AT LEAST 60 DAYS until back at standard target rates.. .TV this evening still saying delays for up to TEN DAYS

Even that may be dubious with leave/sickness and NTT members being clobbered for training in February - they have probably lees 'hands-on' time on the kit than the vast majority. Some people could well experience great differences in flow rates if absent for any length of time.

[Lon More]

Quiet innit?. .The real test will come tomorrow I guess.. .The weather gods seem to be helping by pushing a lot of N. Atlantic traffic around London airspace.

However why does it continue to be neccessary to close the computer down on Wednesday? Surely it is possible to do it on the run, or is it still a requirement to oil the mechanism on Mr. Babbage's Calculating Engine every seven days?

[Flight Plan Fixer]

Oil?. .Oil?. .Sorry, not allowed to buy any more oil for HCS due to NATS budget cuts!

[ 27 January 2002: Message edited by: Flight Plan Fixer ]</p>

[Bigears]

Flight Plan Fixer, which planet are you on??

I guess you never have asked the operational staff what they think of the 'testing'.

I'll save you the trouble and tell you...... .'new' adaptation: wrong (wouldn't like to guess what % this is), resulting in wrong strips/no strips/too many strips/wrong times. .'old' adaptation: if anything was wrong, its fixed 5 months down the line, however, there seems to be a rule that for everything fixed, something else must be broken! (job for life?).

To call the software 'tested' is an insult!!

Sorry mate, if you're involved, but bad news ain't nice <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[BOAC]

BA 2486/7 LGW-BCN-LGW. .I KNOW it was a quiet day, but just want to say well done to all involved. Apart from the 'hint' of a Hampshire brogue there I'd never have known!

[cwatters]

Thanks for the reply BEXIL, I'll pack a few. .more batteries for the walkman.

Hope the change over goes ok for you all.

Colin

[BEXIL160]

Thanks.. It's all gone rather well, so far..But it's going to be a while before we get the system up to the levels that LATCC was handling. All in good time...

BEX