Routing from Asia to Europe

[WHBM]

I go to St Petersburg, Russia often, and at midday on clear days we often notice high level westbound 4-engined traffic going over the city. I am guessing it is Asia to Western Europe daytime traffic, but am wondering whch routes. The great circle from Hong Kong passes to the south, and from Tokyo/Seoul to the north, but I'm aware that the tracks across Siberia only follow the great circle very roughly. Any of the crews on these routes know which traffic this might be ? My Russian friends would like to know.

Finnair do a number of flights from Helsinki to the Far East each day which probably go this way, but they're all MD-11s with a different contrail pattern. You do occasionally see trijet patterns as well.

It's strange, this is the only air traffic you ever see over the city. Nothing Russian or lower level at all.

[Hotel Mode]

Any number of reasons for different routes, but russian airspace is very limited in mubers of airways. i can think of only 4 routes we generally use to the far east. It can be over Bodo north of Novary Zemlya then down towards Norlisk, the next south is Helsinki-Archengelsk, The next passes over St Petersburg, either splitting towards Kharbarovsk where it joins the previous 2, or south towards Mongolia. The Next is passes near Vilnius then round the south of moscow, but is generally used for Hong Kong, as its not on the great circle to Japan. The choice of routes depends on the winds and is therefore seasonal. Last year we generally flew out to NRT via Arkangel and back via Novary Zemlya. but in the summer it was out via Novary Zemlya and back over st Petersburg. So the St Petersburg over flights are most likely UK-HonG Kong/Japan/Korea, or Continental Europe- Japan/korea or vice versa

Theres a web site of a lufthansa pilots showing these routes, except the most notherly as these are not so useful from Germany as UK http://home.t-online.de/home/gerd.puppel/

[WHBM]

Hotel Mode:

Thank you very much. Answers it perfectly . Also explains why we see the westbound stuff in the good weather in the summer. Possibly it was you one day !

BTW : Try not to have to do a diversion to Norilsk in the winter. :uhoh:

[The SSK]

I remember (very early 1970s) BA planning a trans-Siberian Concorde op from London to Tokyo. Essentially, they stretched a piece of string around a globe and noted where the mid-point was - nearest identified airport, Norilsk.

At the next UK-USSR bilateral talks, they floated the idea to the Russians, who were more than just a little amazed (a) that Norilsk even appeared on Western maps, (b) that the Brits were aware that it had a long runway and (c) the sheer nerve of the suggestion in the first place.

[Standard Jet Dep]

Yep I would think it is definitely NRT/KIX/NGO traffic back to Europe. I have flown over St Petersburg twice and been afforded some great views of it albeit from 35,000 feet. Actually Im very interested about that area of airspace especially the route to Japan as I travel it quite often. Would wonder where you would divert too if stuck say inbetween Mirny or due south of Yakutsk. Is there any radar around there? and what are the traffic levels ATC service like until you contact Sapporo or Tokyo or westbound Tampere or one of the baltics. I really do find Siberia truly fascinating unbelievible how on that NRT flight you see nothing for miles and miles.

If anyone has any more info about this route I would love to know about it.

Brgds

SJD

[WHBM]

Thank you for the info. I am surprised at the Hong Kong flights, I haven't done that trip for some years since many round trips in about 1999-2000 and we always went Poland, well south of Moscow and transited the length of Kazakstan, a surprisingly big and well lit country which it takes hours to cross. And most westbound Hong Kong flights are overnight.

I guess Beijing/Shanghai to Europe will also come this way too.

[mr Q]

Often do the HKG- LHR route and have always been curious about the 'well lit" portions. Are these parts exceptionally well lit or is the atmosphere exceptionally unpolluted and clear or has it something to do with the actual altitude of the ac above the ground ??
Sorry if slightky off thread but have always been curious too about the exceptional lighting !!!!!!!!!!

[Hotel Mode]

Russian ATC is very generally very good, i think you are under radar most of the way (if not civilian then military who will help in an emergency) The only thing is every regionhas an atc centre so you change FIR's every half hour. Some of the places must be the least pleasant ATC postings in the world, some of the plavces you can barely see as you fly over. Nary-an-Mar anyone? As for enroute diversions, no thanks! Once past St Petersburg/Moscow i wouldnt divert for anything other than a unextinguished fire really. Kharbarovsk is next "sensible" place. unless you are south enogh to go to Yekaterinburg or Novosibirsk. We have charts for places like Norilsk but as i understand it any landing would be not be able to depart due lack of taxiways etc, and any disembarkation would be down the slides. (B747) Medical emergencies would probably continue to destination.

[WHBM]

mr Q:

Believe what we are seeing is the substantial oil and gas fields in Kazakstan, and the bright lights are waste gas being flared off, plus all the surrounding installations.

Norilsk airport is not as bad as some make out, it is basic, but has multiple daily flights to Moscow, St Petersburg, and nearer localities. Domodedovo Airlines are still using that icon of Soviet-era airlines, the Ilyushin 62, on their Moscow flights. Russians don't need steps for widebodies as the Ilyushin 86 has internal stairs down to the baggage level.

[Standard Jet Dep]

Thanks Hotel Mode for your reply. I have always been really interested in that route and always thought god it must be lonely down there and up at whatever level you are flying at. I always imagined some guy sat in a small building waiting for all the trans siberian stuff to come over in the middle of the night. Quite fascinating area of the country isnt it. Was lucky enough back in the pre- 9/11 days to get into the flight deck for landing in NRT but before that want up to visit not so far from Sakehard sounded very quiet. Anyway thanks for that info. Are turnarounds down in NRT still as regimented and organised as ever. I even borught home a few tips for our agents alas they never materialized.

[TopBunk]

One day a 'Speedbird' (BA) a/c was en-route to or from Japan and flying over Siberia, when the ATC guy asks...'say, Mr Speedbird Captain .... how much money do you earn a month?'. To which the Speedbird skipper replies .....' Does it matter? My wife spends 10% more than I earn!'.

At least they had that in common.

[Number Cruncher]

Re the Kazakhstan oil/gas stations.

These stations must be absolutely huge!! I flew back from Singapore to Heathrow a few weeks ago and when flying over a part of Kazakhstan (according to the moving map) we must have flew over one of these areas as it was pitch black for a while (through a layer of cloud I must add) and all of a sudden there was this orange glow over a vast area. The map didn't identify any major town so I am assuming this was one of those oil/gas producing areas.

It was kind of eerie....

[WHBM]

Resurrected from the past !

The web link to the maps given in the second post above no longer works, looks like T-Mobile have reorganised things. Does anyone know where the maps are now please ?

Thank you.

[Interliner]

Try this one:

http://www.planningchart.de/

rgds
Interliner