ANSETT....what made it a GREAT airline?

[Kaptin M]

Bound to be a winner - this thread has been a long time coming, and I`m sure there are plenty who`d be interested in adding their tuppence worth.

During my time there - from 1978 until 1989 - we Ansett staff all perceived, imo, that we were different to our main competitor (TAA) - there was a LOVE of the company, that meant each of us actually enjoyed going to work, and didn`t mind giving extra when it was called for, and even when it wasn`t.

Until the Fat Man started fiddling (by placing no talent, "Yes men" in the top positions), I don`t believe that any of us (AN staff) had the dislike of management that seemd to prevail in TAA.

It was the PEOPLE, all working together, that I would say made the old Ansett a GREAT airline!!:ok:

Edit: Rather than tacking on a post somewhere below this one, I believe that ALL ex-Ansett staff would have to agree that without the foresight and and hard work of the founder himself, and those whom HE subsequently appointed, Ansett - the airline - could never have achieved the "cult status" amongst its staff, that it did.
So, to state the obvious:-
................ :ok:SIR REGINALD ANSETT :ok:

[Sunfish]

It was a great airline. I enjoyed working there and I still talk to one or two of the people I met.

The thing that I remember was the depth of talent and experience - from 16 year old kids to greybeards who had messed with DC3's and flying boats.

Anyone remember Ray Wensor, Doug Kelynack, Ron Bush, John Bibo, Ron Jackson, Kieth Ball, John Muir or Ken Bond?

Sad to leave, but thank god I did.

[SixDemonBag]

Maintenance? ;)

[jedda]

I agree,Ansett was a great airline and I was proud to work there.R.M.A was a great boss (as well as an Electra)
I flew with Ray Wensor on Viscounts and remember Kieth Ball and Ron Bush.Capt.Longbottom was one of my favourites.
The old Ansett had CLASS:ok:

[Buster Hyman]

I was there before & after 89 Kaptin and, (I hope this doesn't degenerate into the usual 89 posts!) I would have to say that the spirit you knew up to '89 continued beyond that year, however, AN was gutted by the events that transpired and that spirit eventually did die. You could say that it lingered for some time in the long term staff who actually kept her going all those years, even when she was rudderless, the staff kept her alive, but it just goes to prove that good, respected leadership plays a vital role in business.

Ansett had a good name in & out of the industry. I never had an issue, say, applying for a loan. When you told them you were at Ansett & had been there for X years, there was always an immediate approval. Ansett was known, liked and an icon. There are lots of people happy to have seen the back of Ansett, for various reasons, but rest assured, we will never see her like again.:ok:

[MkVIII]

Ansett pre-89 WAS a great airline, with many pilots I rank in the "Gods" book.

Having said that, nothing wrong with TAA :ok:

OK, I am biased!

Abeles not only ruined Ansett, he ruined the aviation industry in Australia foreever. Thank God he is no longer around.

[AIRWAY]

Hello,

I dont mean to hijack this thread, but could someone explain me what happened in 1989 :confused: Let's just say at that time i wasnt as old as i am now :O ( History Lesson )

Many Thanks

[air-hag]

Anyone remember Ray Wensor, Doug Kelynack, Ron Bush, John Bibo, Ron Jackson, Kieth Ball, John Muir or Ken Bond? Nope.... could someone explain me what happened in 1989 HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAA.......!!! Who cares?????Let's just say at that time i wasnt as old as i am now Neither was anyone else.... :rolleyes:


What made Ansett great:

1. The "30 years old or married and you're OUT" rule.

No un-singles, fatties, psychos, nutcases, bunny-boilers or even regular boilers. The girls' careers didn't last long enough for them to go all sour and bitter. :ok:

2. The hosties shirts.

They reckon there was one designed by some pervert in hosty recruiting with the top button somewhere down near their belly-button (or nipples on some of the boiler varieties..... :E :p )

[AIRWAY]

Well, i care thats why i asked... :hmm:

[Capt Claret]

Airway

You'll need a month or so's leave, then type "1989" into PPRuNe's search engine, sit back, read it and weep.

[OZTECH]

:{ :{ :{

NOOOOoooooooooooo

Anything but the 1989 strike

my PC may overload with PPrune messages and shutdown in protest :yuk:


OZTECH

[Capt Snooze]

AIRWAY,

I'll try to be polite.

Your profile says you reqistered in July 2003, you have 638 posts (hmmmmmm), and that you are an ATPL (Student). Now, the first two would be correct for your current persona, the third we have to take your word for.

Given the above, you have been either unbelievably un-observant over the past year, in which case please take Capt Claret's advice and study carefully the history of the industry you are about to enter, or you are a troll.

Now back to the thread.......................



Snooze

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!

[AIRWAY]

Well,

Im glad you are polite because there is no need to be rude :hmm:

I asked a simple question ( always been told if in doubt, ask! ), i have to say i should have done a search first that to ask here.

By the way dont think that student pilots wherever they might be in the world knows what happened in 1989.

:rolleyes:

AIRWAY

Now im going for a ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ



Airways

Please do us all a favour and don't press the issue - it's rather a taboo subject on this forum. As suggested, do a search on "89" and you'll find all the answers.

Ah, air-slag, your usual quality and informative posts I see.... :yuk: In your case, Sir Reg's comment about old boilers would be a compliment! :}

Woomera

[planemad2]

Simple answer to your question.

The Staff (all of them). :ok:

[Sunfish]

Sixdemonbag ;) Only now as an old fart my braincell levels have reduced so I can learn to fly;)

I think I just realised (at about 5.00am this morning) why AN ended up with such a mixed and hence costly fleet - Abeles only knew about trucks and he thought that aircraft were jusat expensive trucks.

Having worked with some logistics companies I know how they buy their trucks - they go out to tender and they find which of Kenworth, Mack, Mercedes, Iveco etc. are desperate for a big sale.

I suspect that this is what Abeles did. I have only one bit of hard evidence for this. Back in 1980 (or 81?) Sunfish put together the maintenance budget for AN and its brand new 737/727/767? fleet. The number came out at about $110 million.

As usual, after the normal vetting, this was dutifully submitted up the line until it got to Peter A. Sir Peter's response in his deep Hungarian accent, as reported to me, was "You mean I buy all these brand new airplanes and you want THIS much money? What gives? they are still under warranty?"

The next thing Sunfish knows he is frogmarched into Graeme McM's office and given the third degree about his calculations and assumptions. Fortunately for me, these stood up, and I was able to provide the background information to support my position.

What I suddenly realised today was that Abeles question made sense if he was thinking of aircraft just as expensive trucks, which as we all know, they aren't.

[OZTECH]

I've worked for Qantas and beside the Ansett engineers sharing a hangar space.

Ansett engineers were about 4 times more productive and although I dont have any figures, Ansett guys achieved more work with far less resources on what was really quite a large and varied fleet.

The fleet was getting old and was too varied, Bae 146 operation was laughable as both engineers and flight crew disliked this machine. It wasnt that long ago 727, F50 and F28 were still operating.

Must of been a nightmare with this many types.

OZTECH:oh: :oh:

[AIRWAY]

Ok Woomera...

no worries... Someone with intellectual capacity has explained me what hapened via a PM, i can imagine now how some people feel, specially with the response i got earlier on. Anyway time to hit the skies lesson to attend...

This issue for me is now closed and sorry for asking...

G'day

[FarQ2]

Airway as Capt. Snooze alluded to you are a "pratt" you are now telling us:Someone with interlectual capacity has now explained to me what happened via a PM


So now you are telling us you believe ONE persons educated opinion ! :8

There would 1000 opinions on this forum as to the cause and effect of "The '89 dispute" :hmm:

If you want most of the story there is a book on the subject which covers it pretty well --- The Title which escapes me however I'm sure the many learned people here in this forum would provide you with the Title.

By the way I am an acquantance of Capt. Snooze and your denigration of him was unwarranted. :ok:

[AIRWAY]

Thanks for the compliment, may i take this opportunity to extend it to you and your mate snooze, oops i mean Captain Snooze. :hmm:

I didnt say i believed that person's opinion, i simply stated that i received an intellectual reply to my original question, but before that someone decided to blow all this out of proportion, was my question stupid? Maybe it was for someone who knows the answer, but since i have lived all of my 22 years of life in Europe i think im qualified not to know the answer to my original question.

You're an acquantance Of Captain Snooze? Well good for you it's a very noble gesture :}

Thanks for the tip regarding the book :ok:

Im just trying to increase my knowledge regarding Australian aviation... And i dont think asking is a crime.

Sorry again Woomera.

AIRWAY

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

The book is called Sky Pirates. Author eludes me.

Not biased one way ot the other...really. :ok:

[Kaptin M]

"Sky Pirates" by Brad Norrington, released by the ABC Book shop.

Not bad, but chronologically a nightmare to follow.

[Howard Hughes]

In answer to the question that started this post.

Well you did'nt have to pay for your endorsement for starters!!

Cheers, HH.
:ok:

[Eastwest Loco]

Great airline Kap - the people made her, and I happily say that despite AN being the dreaded foe for most of my airline career.

As soon as reg lost control, Ansett was lost. Sripped - restructured and thoroughly raped.

With the right ownership the world would be a nicer place today.

Hindsight is 20/20 though.

best

EWL

[TheNightOwl]

Right on, EWL, it was the people and, had we had a management structure imbued with the same ethos as the rest of the staff, then AN would still be flying. It's a very simple equation, good management + committed staff = happy customers.

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[FarQ2]

TNO committed staff ?????? :hmm:

That is what you have always failed to acknowledge of those of us that chose to walk.

We were committed to that GREAT AIRLINE but got well and truly shafted by management over a number of years. Those of us with SPINE didn't look over our shoulder, the avarice group with "jelly fish spines" grovelled back to be onhand for the "coupe de grace"

TNO accept the fact it was st:mad: ffed the day "The Fat Man" got control.

:{ :{ :{

[air-hag]

Those of us with SPINE didn't look over our shoulder well what are you doing on this thread then??? Couldn't resist a peek hey!?!?!? ;)

[FarQ2]

air-hag

Give us some credibility, a lot us us that walked have good memories of the old AN and were sad to see an ICON go.

Hey it's good to see your vitriol is still about. :rolleyes:

[gaunty]

Up until deregulation it was simply no contest, but when TAA/Australian was let off the leash so to speak, we all won. ;)

And didn't AN have to scramble then. :)

Aussie pax never had it soooo good, before, or since, and then...........:{ :ouch: :ooh: :sad:

[TheNightOwl]

FQ2 - when I referred to "committed Staff", I was referring to those who were committed to the airline's success and, by extension, our own careers. What I was NOT referring to was commitment to their own, selfish ends at the expense of all others.
If you care to take the time to read, AND UNDERSTAND, my previous posts, you would have grasped that I hold "The Fat Man" and his cohorts in very low esteem, they were a bunch of greedy, self-serving b*****ds, and I wonder to which other group of AN employees could that description have been applied? Ring any bells, FQ2?? Of course we were committed, how the hell else could we have kept the company going for so long despite the predations of management and others?
By all means berate me for my beliefs of the rights and wrongs of the '89 dispute, but at least get correct what I have stood for all this time, whether you agree with me or not!

Should anyone else wish to have a go at me, feel free, just don't expect me to respond any further. Like the '89ers, my position was made a long, long time ago, and remains to this day. I have heard NO argument to convince me that I have been on the wrong side of the fence since then, nor do I expect to in the future. Feel secure in your self-righteous maintenance of the moral high ground, FQ2, as the years go by you'll be increasingly lonely for the new generation doesn't understand, and cares less, about '89. Christ, some of them were still in short pants at school then. Waken up, man, and get over it!!

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[Taildragger]

AIRWAY Let's just say that next time I meet you I will attempt to explain, the Bitterness, the Pain, the Hatred, The Division, The Employee against employees, The Scabs, the Emigration, Pitting Pilot agains Pilot, The family break ups, the Loss of Employment, The terrible attitude of the Government of the day, etc etc etc etc. I could go on for a week and NEVER even come close to explaining it all. Needless to say AIRWAY, you asked an innocent question that can NEVER be answered to you properly. No doubt ex '89 ers will be able to come up with more, but what would be the point.? After 15 years what needed to be said has already been said.

[B772]

Worked for AN for 23 years with time on the DC3, DC4, Viscounts 747 and 832, DC9 etc etc plus all the characters incl Capt Zero and the Kmart kid.

First and best airline I worked for. The four since then are in a different league.

[DutchRoll]

I've read a few examples of mutual backslapping on pprune over the years, but this may just take the cake. :yuk:

If Ansett were truly great, I imagine it would be Australia's #1 airline right now, wouldn't it?

[gaunty]

DutchRoll

That's a bit unfair, so were Pan Am, TWA, Braniff, Swissair and so on "GREAT" air lines as were Shaw Savill, White Star and so on "Great" shipping lines?:)

[Wizofoz]

Edington put it very well... Great Airline, bad business!!

[Obie]

The Owl comes across as one very sick, bitter and twisted individual...anybody else get those vibes like I do?

Methinks he's the one who should "let it go" and move on.

You'll make yourself ill, Mate! :ok:

[DutchRoll]

Mmmm. Perhaps it was a bit harsh. IMHO, Ansett was a 'good' airline, when it was managed decently (and that was arguably a long time ago), but 'great'? Depends on which ex-Ansett employees you talk to!;)

[amos2]

" If you care to take the time to read, AND UNDERSTAND, my previous posts, you would have grasped that I hold "The Fat Man" and his cohorts in very low esteem, they were a bunch of greedy, self-serving b*****ds, and I wonder to which other group of AN employees could that description have been applied? Ring any bells, FQ2??"

Good to see that the idiot owl has finally seen the light of day and recognised his Sc*bby mates for what they really were!

So now, owl, why don't you trot off back to your model airplanes and leave the pro pilots stuff to the pro pilots. You're out of your league here! Find another web site!

Best regards.

amos2 :ok:

[Buster Hyman]

DutchRoll.

I'd be interested to know if you've ever felt pride in the company, any company, you've worked for?

I guess in this era of cheapest bidder gets the job, it would be hard to have much respect for your company & superiors. If you can't relate to the pride & fond memories that some of my former colleagues at AN feel, then I truly feel sorry for you. I don't intend that to be patronising, I just mean that it's sad that you may not have experienced a job where one of the best parts of it was that they payed you to be there!

Aside from the 89ers, there are, naturally, always cases where the experience isn't the same for everyone. AN slowly degraded from what it once was through the ministrations of a fat pig and some Yank:mad: I would imagine that most of the bad experiences would have come from that era. I went from school to Ansett & knew no other employer until 2001, suffice to say that Ansett was good for me.

Lets hope you have an experience with a company that you can look back on in your later years and think "Gee, they were good times!":ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

Dutch; IMHO you're way out of line and also I think that Buster's last post said it best.
For the record I was never an employee of Ansett in any way, shape or form. I only ever flew with Ansett as a full fare paying pax and always enjoyed the flight, even if several were the on the 'drunks flight' out of Darwin which departed at midnight!
And I can remember a memorable one of those, sitting right down the back for an hour or so with some of Sir Reggie's 'old broilers'. And great Girls they were too!:ok:

You only live twice. Once when
you're born. Once when
you've looked death in the face.

[Eastwest Loco]

IMHO Ansett to the time of its inevitable demise wasthe best of the best, and this is from a TAA brat brought up at MEB under the tail of a TN DC4.

They had their faults, but frontline were a totally committed workforce with no chip on the shoulder.

I miss them.

I miss the sparring and tilting at windmills at DPO airport in my EW days. I miss the support given when your aeroplane shat itself, or their need for a battery cart to start their F27 when theirs died.

I do NOT miss Sir Peter Pussbag Abeles. May he rot in hell. He and Murdoch killed Ansett by totally stripping it and in conjunction with the Siver Bodgie destroyed East West. May the problems that are now besieging the lovely Hazel Hawke be transfered to Bob and multiplied by 20.

I am not vengeful - hang on - YES I AM!!!!

best all

EWL

Ron

[FarQ2]

Well Obie & Amos2 you've spurred me out of my lethargy, I wasn't even going to reply to TNO's last post as IMHO of him he obviously does not have the cerebral capacity to digest any facts regarding the demise of AN.

It is quite apparent from his posts that he is a "brown nose" and "sc:mad: b lover" who hasn't moved on, I'm sure he still drives out to the SIM centre every Sunday and crys in the geraniums! :ugh:

hey Amos2 are you still residing downriver from my hometown? :E

[Sunfish]

RIP Ansett. I'd just like to see Qantas disembowelled the same way.

[bonvol]

You may get your wish sooner than you think Sunfish. QF pilots are in the process of committing hari kari as we speak.

[gaunty]

Sunfish

I've not been a fan of QF in the past and certainly wouldn't set foot in an AN aircraft post 89 as a matter of principle, but I'm curious as to why they should be disemboweled :)

Apropos AN I had not travelled with them since before 89 when they were a top airline, but was required to by a clients contract commitments, very shortly before their demise.
To say I was shocked and dismayed at the comparison would be an understatement, it already had the smell of corporate death about it.:{

[Obie]

...so, come on Dick, err, sorry, Owl...

what have we got to say about that?

Got some some more bile, venom and poison to heap upon us?

Being the pilot hater that you are! :ok:

[Capt Fathom]

Interesting remark Sunfish. Why would you wish for 35,000 people to join the ranks of the unemployed??

[MTOW]

What ever happened to Captain Zero? Fondly remembered…

Perhaps someone might like to tell the story of how he got that name. (That lift was never quite the same for me after I heard the tale.)


“Press the zero! Press the zero!” Loved it.

[Kaptin M]

Well, TNO your post from a couple of pages back deserves a reply - another reply :p - not just for you, but for some posters who might need a slight refresher/intro as to what precipitated the events of 1989, and its monumental effect on Australia's airlines.

So allow me to start with a question or two, TNO.
During your time at Ansett, did you ever have a salary increase/decrease, or a change in your conditions of employment?
I'm certain that you would have had annual incrementals - plus, in your case, "shift allowances", extra loadings for working on week-ends, public holidays, "back-of-the=clock", overtime, etc, etc.
Of course you realise that in most of those situations (except back of the clock) pilots are NOT paid extra, don't you.

So WHO negotiated those contractual conditions for you, TNO - or was it a "non-negotiable.....take it, or leave it deal, as Abeles & Co threw at the pilot group in 1989, when they REFUSED to negotiate with the AFAP?
Have you never entered a negotiation - be it for your own work conditions, the sale of a car, house, or other property - not asking for MORE than you intend receiving at the closing of the deal?

The AFAP being the pilot appointed negotiators at ALL contract renewals for the preceding 30-40 years up until 1989.
You DO remember that, don't you TNO?

So moving on to your quip....I wonder to which other group of AN employees could that description have been applied? ...I'll happily provide you with an answer to that.
I suggest to you, that "another group of AN employees [that] that description could have been applied to (a bunch of greedy, self-serving b*****ds)" were the likes of YOU, TNO :eek:
Sorry old pal, but yes, YOU - who couldn't see past the end of your nose...in fact past your pay packet...as to exactly WHAT the 1989 Dispute was all about.
What is was NOT about, was the pilots trying to achieve a 29.47% pay rise!
It WAS about a group of employees insisting on their right to NOT be forced into a system whereby their employment conditions were run by the State - a facist type system.
That system - known then as "The Accord", was one which the AFAP had agreed the pilots would enter into, for a trial period, and on a voluntary basis. At the end of that period, the Federation had determined that it was detrimental to remain in The Accord, and wanted out.
Abeles, Murdoch, Hawke, Kelty. etc REFUSED us that "out".

You state, TNO, that the '89 pilots were being too greedy with their AMBIT (ambit = negotiable) claim, yet the book "Sky Pirates" written by a neutral observer, Brad Norrington, states that the salaries being offered in the scabs' contracts amounted to almost EXACTLY a 30% salary INCREASE for any Ansett/East-West/TAA/IPEC pilot who signed one.
Had the Dispute been about avarice of $$$'s alone, then the airlines would have been deluged with applications from the Federation pilots in September.

No, TNO, the "group of AN employees [that] that description could have been applied to" were those who didn't take heed of the AFAP's printed leaflets titled "Who will be next?" - the AN employees who saw the scab pilots as the saviours of THEIR jobs, and who happily - mindlessly......except for the thought of perhaps being forced to lose some $$$'s because of the Dispute.....trained the replacements/returnees up.
Short term gain for long term loss, TNO.

Because, TNO - whether you realise NOW, or you still don't - OUR fight then, was also YOUR fight!
It was a fight about stopping the GREED of The Fat Man - the greed that ultimately caused Ansett's demise.
Had there been a few more people who had been willing to look a little deeper into the ACTUAL principles of the Dispute, you - TNO - and others like you, might still have been working in Ansett today.
FYI, there were plenty within Ansett who supported us - who COULD see what was at stake for them....those who provided the names of the "returnees" and the new joiners, the sort who were typified by the guy who pushed a dinner plate under Captain "lightfingers" nose, with the word SCAB drawn in the mashed potato.
THOSE are the ex-AN employees for whom I really feel!

As an aside, it was noteworthy that during a "demonstration march" at BNE airport, we had a wharfie join us - a guy who could see how employees' rights were being threatened by greedy, facist type employers and a corrupt head of government.

Kind regards.
K.M.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Kap,

BRAVO! NOBODY could have said it better than that! I am speechless almost - that summed it all up EXACTLY.

Now, BRACE! BRACE! BRACE! You know that the scabs are going to rear their pointed heads again and try to bring you down into their quagmire of self wallow, pity, and shame.

Have any of you (non-returnees) ever walked through a terminal, seen a scab and actually had them come up to you and say g'day, or did they all just skulk off, pretending not to have seen you? Funny - all the ones I ever see simply skulk off. Still must be a damned big burden of SHAME.

I doubt one will have the courage to speak his TRUE feelings about the matter, well, at least without trying to denegrate Kap.

Let's see the true reason why some went back. Was it money? Did you think you couldn't get another job somewhere else? (I know quite a few returnees that wouldn't get a job elsewhere based on performance!) Did your wife make you do it because you couldn't afford repayments on her BMW? Or did you just want to stick it to your mates, have your cake, and eat theirs too?

I know this will probably get locked, but come on, let's see the TRUTH behind the defections.

[A4G]

Nice one KAP. We all know the real intent of your thread is to once again crap on about 89. I guess you're scarred for life. How sad to hang on to events of 15 years past. You assh*#es held the country to ransom and put a lot of businesses under. Many others lost everything as a result of your failed industrial action. A fact you fail to acknowledge in your swirl of self importance. Those people would like to have a chat with you about that up a dark alley. I've never heard such self righteous dribble perpetuated by a few pathetic individuals for so long. The rest of us are sick to death of hearing about it. Please get your therapy else where.

[Kaptin M]

I have replied to a couple of previous posters, A4G - it is NOT my intent to turn this thread into another 1989 one.

As for your offer to "have a chat with you about that up a dark alley."..........................how about you, and they, meet me somewhere out in the open, in the bright lights ;)
btw, A4G, I see that BOTH of your posts have centred around the 1989 issue - therapy didn't go so well, eh?!!:ugh:

[Obie]

I think we might all find that the owl won't be having much more to do with the prune forums since he's realised that he's been sprung as a psychopath!

He and Dickie make a great team of idiots don't they? :ok:

[Eastwest Loco]

Finally!!!!!!!! After all this time!!!!! Kaptin M has named the beasts in the 1989 debacle, and bloody good on you for doing so.

It wasn't and never was the ones who went back that were the villians, not was it the ones who stayed out. It was Murdoch, Abeles and Hawke that pitted mate against mate.

When you look at it, a masterwork of psychological manipulation of a very intelligent and egotistical (yes you all are, otherwise you would not be where you are or were) group of people.

I now run a very profitable Travel Agency with excellent staff, drive the 20 year old sports car (of course it is a bloody z!) that I always wanted, but would trade it all if someone could give me my mighty little airline back.

It aint going to happen though.

We are hopefully moving beyond 1989, because God knows, we have more than enough hurdles being placed in front of us in the current climate.

Now, we need each other more than ever.

Best regards

EWL

[jedda]

During my time in Ansett,we trusted each other and had respect for management.We had pride in ourselves and each other and this showed in our work
I crewed DC 6,DC3,F27,Viscount 700 & 800,L188,B727,&DC9.All crew were friendly and came to work with a smile.
We trusted that management would listen to our grievences,bargin hard,and at the end of the day ,have a beer with us and get ready for the next day,regardless of who won.
Imho ,should a similar thing to 1989 have happened in Reg's Ansett, the scabs would have been kicked out.Reg and the old Ansett was built on integrity.
Smile

[Casper]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I've never heard such self righteous dribble perpetuated by a few pathetic individuals for so long. The rest of us are sick to death of hearing about it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A4G,

Your "few pathetic individuals" = 80% of the pilots in 1989
Your "rest of us" = <20% of the pilots in 1989

YOU were the ones who were out of step, son. YOU were the ones who helped the fat man and his little mate to rape and plunder an airline. It's little wonder that you are indeed "sick to death of hearing about it."

[The Librarian]

So sad to see what started out as a interesting post on what was such a great airline degrade into a 89 fenzy. LEts all grow up gentlemen and move on.

[A4G]

Casper: I had nothing to do with 89 whatsoever. How you came to that conclusion is beyond me? I objected to Kap starting a thread about AN when anyone who reads his dribble knows he just wanted to continue his vent about 89. The few I was referring to were those who continue to hijack threads and post here about their failed industrial action. We all agree who's at fault so why do we have to keep hearing it? As far as I'm concerned "Sky Pirates" was an appropriate title for their action. If you know anything at all about Australian industrial history then you will have heard of the "Prices and Incomes Accord" This was in place at the time and the AFAP ran straight into it at MMO. Their timing was as off as Mike Tysons.

[Obie]

...and where is the psychopathetic owl?...

nowhere to be seen!...

why am I not surprised? :ok:

[Fubaar]

How about we lighten things up and tell a few Captain Zero stories, Charlie?

What did happen to him? Is he still with us?

[amos2]

So, should we start with the story of Maurie cleaning the windscreen of the F27 in Alice Springs back in 72, or there abouts, or should we move onto the DC9 diversion between Sy/Ml in 76, or there abouts? :p

This is well before the idiot owls time , of course! :ok:

[Kaptin M]

I liked the one about "Blackjack", taxi-ing out in MEL with the window of the Diesel 9 open, left elbow protruding, and the ADF tuned to the races - during a check (with Duff Gen, I think.)

Then there was the story of Karl Muskie, who had responded to that Pommie clerk - his name escapes me at the moment - that he had also fought in the WW2 over England....in Messerschmitts!!!

I think poor old Captain Zero was diagnosed with a degenerative disease, wasn't he?

Dusty Lane, and his pal, Mal, were a couple of other names which if mentioned, usually drew tales of yore from the generation ahead of mine (I think I managed to get both of their names in my log book as a young whipper snapper.)

Does anyone from BNE know what became of Ron Herbert? His story of leaving Oz against his doctor's advice (as a matter of fact, he told me that his doctor told him that if he did go to Lourdes, the only way he'd return would be in a pine box) was nothing short of a miracle, coming back home completely clear,

Anyone game to mention Trish, and her little black book??

(A4G, to date you've made only 3 posts - ALL of which are about "that year". The title of Brad Norrington's book, Sky Pirates, in fact, refers to Hawke Murdoch, Abeles, Strong & Co.
That's one helluva chip you're carrying around :ugh: )

[Wiley]

Ahhh Trish, Kap... I do remember her. (I was the one bloke in the airline who wasn't in her ****book!!!) After she left, she wrote to one of the long time FAs and told her she had got a job in a warehourse. Straight-faced, the FA said "And she can't even spell it right!"

[Australia2]

This is more like it, these sorts of stories do the once great airline and the people that made it better justice than the usual brawl.

Oz2

[SOPS]

:D Simple for me. At the age of 6 I was standing at Perth Airport and saw a Ansett-ANA 727 arrive. From that day on, I wanted to be an Ansett Pilot. I did achive that dream, and gave the company 150%. I really mean it, I wanted to be part of the Ansett family, and give all I had. I loved that airline, and its family.

I would have done anything for it. And did, like loadind bags onto a SYD bound 727 one afternoon ex Darwin, because we have a staff shortage!!! I loved helping out!!!

But then 1989 and the end.
Well I love my new airline, but I miss Ansett
SOPS

[air-hag]

So, should we start with the story of Maurie cleaning the windscreen of the F27 in Alice Springs back in 72, or there abouts Since your memory is foggy on the year, let alone the story, let's drop it as the current generation are already bored, Old Timer.

Oh I'm sure it was a hell of a tale but you know we are more interested in nintendo these days than grandpa's old re-hashed tales of glory. "The older I get the better I wuzzzz".....

"Hey kiddies d'ya want Unca Amus to tell yuz a story about the old daze???"

"Puh-leeeeeez don't, we'll be good!"

"Okay kiddies, now.... hey SHUT UP AND LISTEN.... now, where wuz I ... oh yer... well there I wuz, back when men were men and......ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.......snort.......fart.....z zzzzzz..." :zzz:

[Casper]

A4G,

Sorry if I identified you incorrectly. It's just that your posts all referred to that particular year and I may have made an inaccurate assumption.

Wiley & Kap,

The names that you mention bring back memories. Like you, Wiley, I was not included in Trish's black book - I spent a long time on freighters!

The WW II pilot who trained me on DC 9s mentioned one of our leaders' names when he advised me: " Don't let anyone tell you that this a/c is gutlesss on one engine. It's got enough power to taxy over a wheel chock - ask Dusty!" Apparently, he got up the F/O for not calling a thrust above 50% N1.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Airhag some of us like good ol' yarns. They're funny and remind us of those days before the C**ts Against Sensible Aviation outlawed fun...

So why don't you **** off!!

[Kaptin M]

Some of us are entitled to our "Senior moments", air-slag :yuk:

I'd be interested in that one, Amos - haven't heard it.....one of the better ones from not long before "The War", was of a certain Rat with the Gold Teeth (TRWTGT), deploying the slide on a 767 during a turnaround in SYD,,,"I've got hidden microphones and cameras, and handwriting experts investigating this defacing of the bulletins I've issued"...little did he know it was one of those who returned with him to The New Order (following his stint on the B707 in Honkers) :}

Gordon Hailes...was the name of the Pommie I was trying to think of earlier - ex-RAF chappie, you know..pip pip.

[FarQ2]

Ahh Gordon Littlehailes (Kap) I remember well the day as intake F/O's (he really put the fear of the almighty into F/O's particularly junior ones) one of our BNE intake F/O's had to go to him and "beg" for a green ticket or some such. Not being familiar with the proceedure he enquired as to the correct course:

The advice "go see Mr Sleet" he will fix it. :}

And instant severe CB occurred in the small office when Gordon was addressed as Mr Sleet .

All the rest of his intake mates peering out of the crewroom laughing so much our ribs ached. :E :E :E

[TheNightOwl]

Kap - a reply, despite my expectations of this being hi-jacked, once again, by those unable to do other then verbally abuse anyone in disagreememt with them. This is addressed to you; amos/RTA and that w@nker Obie I intend to ignore from now on.

I was not employed on a "base + penalties" basis, and had no annnual increments, nor shift-loadings, nor public holidays, nor overtime. When I worked a week-end, it was exactly as any other day. If a public holiday landed on my working day, no benefit to me, if it was on my day off, then I accrued a day in lieu. If it was necessary for me to work overtime, I did it, not too often, fortunately. I had no shift loadings, although the HR department latterly tried to "deconstruct" my salary in order to reduce leave-loading entitlement. As a shift-worker, I was entitled to 5 weeks annual leave, like all the others, what was your annual leave entitlement?
My salary increases, when they were available, were negotiated by the ATOF(Airlines Division), which became the ASU(Airlines Division), not a particularly militant organisation, either of them.

Any more questions?

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[Sunfish]

WHy would I like to see Qantas disembowelled? Simple! Qantas is Sydney-centric and does not give other Australian cities a fair go in terms of direct international flights.

The result is that Sydney has had a disproportionate share of Australian inbound tourism ever since the 70's .

If Qantaas was gone, then it would be possible for niche players to provide more direct flights to other capital cities.

To put it another way, I'm sick of travelling into Sydney and staying on the ground for three hours while the aircraft is cleaned and maintained. Before I can get to where I'm going.

It is a conspiracy and I was present at a meeting when the conspiracy was exposed.

Qantas can go **** themselves.

[Capt Fathom]

Ah Sunny you crack me up. Damn conspirators again.
Watch out for those 'reds under the bed'!

[Kaptin M]

Yes TNO, the blood still pumps strongly on both sides of the pilot group, in many, when mention of "that year" is made.
Obviously with you too, as it seems to solicit a response from you, albeit from a slightly different perspective.
Vive la difference!
In the entire history of Ansett it was undoubtedly the second biggest "shake-up" for the Company, following the coup by the Murdoch/Abeles partnership that sabotaged Sir Reg's plans to "appoint" an heir apparent (Sir Charles Court from W.A., wasn't it?).

It broke poor old Reggie's heart, to see those two vultures wrest control from him.

So YOU were indeed fortunate, TNO, to be allowed what was formerly the accepted norm - to have your union negotiate on your behalf:My salary increases were negotiated by the ATOF(Airlines Division), which became the ASU(Airlines Division),....Abeles, Murdoch & Hawke, decided in "that year", that THAT was not to be the norm, starting with us.
Have you noticed how widespread "individual contracts" have since become?
(Does the "Who will be next" A4 mean ANYTHING AT ALL to you yet?).

Annual leave was 6 weeks for us - we are also shift workers, providing a service 24-7-365 (unlike the Philippines, where the entire airline shuts down on XMAS Day :ok: ).
That 6 weeks is comprised of the usual 4 weeks, + 1 day for each Public Holiday....total of 42 days.
However, most workers in Oz fare FAR, FAR better off - as am I, now.
Because, although I receive only 30 days A/L per year, I can take these 30 days in splits, and combine them with my monthly "Off" days.
In the Ansett of old, you didn't receive an extra credit for the "Off" days, in the month in which the "Vacation" days were taken, eg, if I were to take the entire month of September as "Vacation", then I lost 30 days - EVERY other worker has his standard "Off" days deducted from his "Vacation" days, which means he loses only 20-22 days.
My guess is YOU fell into that latter category, TNO?

And back to FQ2 - yes, "Sleet", that was his nickname - I'm certain that TNO must have known him (being from the same tiny island!! :} )

[gaunty]

Sunfish

:ok: now I know from whence you cometh and being a "non Sydney person/troll" I know of which you speak :)

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Night Owl,
May I enquire how I have upset you? I have not addressed you at all in any of my posts except to support the right that you have to express a difference of opinion. For me to now be shut out by you I find odd.

Is it my stance re 1989 that "divorces" me from your retorts and discussion? I certainly hope not, as we established that difference of opinion, and respected each others difference, in PM's.

Sorry to have to ask it, but I honestly did not see what I have posted to be lumped into the ignore basket. As I say so often, and Kap imitated above, Vive la Difference!

To each his own I guess.

[Kaptin M]

And so it's "fun" to remember some of the "characters" of Ansett, but I guess we really took for granted the men who MADE Ansett THE great Company that it was.

From this pilot's point of view, there are a few names that have stood the test of time as being MEN of Integrity, diligence, knowledge, and honesty, who helped MAKE Ansett.
In no particular order - except of course for RMA - I'd like to suggest that these men made Ansett the success it was (with a Brissie bias, of course!!), and who maintained a solid standard:
Sir Reginald Miles ANSETT

Captain Henri W. Theunissen

Captain John Withecomb

Frank Pascoe

Captain John Raby

Captain Ron Brennan

Captain Max Read

Captain Chris Denaro

Captain Rod Harmer

Captain Peter Stone

There were heaps of others with whom I had a "casual acquaintancy"... Capts Jack Hailey, Phil Coney, Terry Breen, Brian Gessell, Brian Thomas, Grahame Thomas, Mark Kentwell.......to name but a few who attempted to set my misguided notions straight (to little or NO avail!!).

Thank you, Gentlemen.
You are ALWAYS in our thoughts - "for better - or for worse!!" Cheers!!

[Edit: You're quite correct, Amos, it's an insult to the other very fine gentlemen named here, to associate them with those 2.
My apologies.]

[air-hag]

you're going SOFT Kaptin M.

Amus!?!?!??? Do something!!!

[robroy]

A question was asked re Captain Zero.

I wanted to be sure of my reply post.

I contacted , "Blackjack "today and he confirmed that my thoughts were correct

VALE. Captain Zero, Capt. M. K.,
He passed away between 4 to 5 years ago,.

A guy in his own right, that had the ability to reduce the guys to tears, he was a comical, friendly guy.

Never flew with him though, Same, types, different times, but plenty of contact at the AFAP.

I wonder if he pressed the "0 " button,to get back to the clouds.

Cheers

robroy

[jedda]

My heroes of Ansett (BNE bias as well!)

Dave Francis

Justin Angus

Brian Kearney (look what he's done in Virgin)

Tony Fitzsimons (always good for a laugh and piano recital)

John Whiteman

Dick Sara (RIP)

Rex Brusch

Scruffy Makin

Peter Gibbes

Col Griffin

Percy Trescize

Dick Holt

ALL the Bushies and Air Q pilots!

And all the FE's!

And of course, RMA...

[amos2]

Well, Shag, because you asked ...I would suggest that M might reconsider Pat Feeney's name in his little diatribe!

Feeney being a Super Scab, and all that!

And to you I would say...watch your step or else I'll mention Gooney Birds and Wright Cyclones, and that will get right up your nose!!

And Hey!...RTA, don't get too concerned with that Donkey the Owl, he's been having you and M on for too long now with his pathetic little PMs to both of you. He hates your guts, and my guts, and he knows that I know that, and he knows that you don't know that, yet!

So, wise up guys...he's a pathetic scab loving loser!

Ignore him and hopefully he'll go away!

Kind Regards,

amos2

[HotDog]

And my daughter Tanya!

[robroy]

I agree totally with Amos2

Cheers,

robroy

[308rooter]

Jedda
How is Tony Fitzsimons going now? A genuine question from someone who was on the spot in those days. Thanks

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

If you think Tony is a hoot, you should meet his son! Sheesh! What a wag!

Regarding Fitzy snr, not sure where he is or what doing. Perhaps Kaptain M knows for certain.

[308rooter]

thanks RTA,
but we had P. staying with us when it all happened and I would like to know how things are now. I am back in Oz now and would like to catch up.

[planemad2]

Kaptin M,

Boy, you bring back a few memories. ;)

Last saw Rod Harmer at Compass, do you know where he is now?

Saw Mark Kentwell and Henri Theunissen in Vietnam, and Henri also prior to that at Compass 2.

Last I saw of Grahame Thomas he had a heart attack in Moscow just prior to a flight back to Vietnam, do you know how/where he is?

[tinpis]

:}

The bottle'o in the training building.

[robroy]

Will check with G.T and P. F, re giving out news on PP.

Cheers,

robroy.

[Sunfish]

Australian Aviation Policy was made at the Pub between TAA and Ansett buildings (forgotten its name).

[B772]

The pub is/was Macs

[planemad2]

robroy,

That's all right, IF you are able to contact him, then he must be okay. ;)

[cognac]

Isn't it interesting that the Engineering top management that took Ansett down the slope to destruction are now in the same positions with QA.
GOOD LUCK!

[Kaptin M]

Without a doubt, it was the personal involvement - staff knowing staff - that made Ansett the GREAT Airline that it was.

People got to know exactly WHO were the competent ones amongst us - and who were NOT!

Abeles managed to intersperse his ass-licking, foot-kissing INcompetents into the system - like white ants into a solid structure. From then on. the integrity of Ansett was weakened.

Just as planemad2 has attempted to pass itself off as a bona fide, Abeles attempted to introduce HIS defects into what was a tried and tested system.

Ansett made its name based on the INTEGRITY of its staff!!

By the same token, I believe Ansett sank, for the SAME reason!!

[planemad2]

Kaptin M,

I don't know what on Earth are you on about?

All I said was your listing of those names of Pilots, that I also worked with at Ansett, brought back many memories?

I also asked after some of them that I have worked with since leaving Ansett, including GT who I was genuinely concerned to know how he is now, as I was with him on his last flight into Moscow before he had his heart attack. We didn't see him again back in Saigon as he went straight home after he was released from hospital in Moscow, and Bill Reilly went across to retrieve the Aircraft from Moscow.

I do not know what I am supposed to have done wrong?

Anyway, I will keep my memories of my years working with these Gentlemen despite of your attitude.

[Romeo Tango Alpha]

Planemad2,
I am not sure what to think about your persona here - one minute you seem to be a ground erk talking about America West pilots, and now you are with GT etc in Moscow and Saigon?????

No need to explain yourself, but it is a tad intriguing!

[planemad2]

Well obviously THEY were in both places, Ansett prior to 1990, and various other places since then.

So was I. ;)