The IR: EFIS vs Iron dial twin?

[six-sixty]

Hi guys

I am looking for a school for my CPL and IR for early next year. One of my shortlisted schools will have the new DA42 by then, which has a glass cockpit. I was wondering if anyone might have an opinion about the merits of doing the IR on such a machine.

My thoughts so far are as follows, and I'd be grateful for anyone else's opinion:

1. Would the workload be slightly lower in terms of less emphasis on a good scan (important instruments all on one screen)?

2. Because of 1. would the IR could potentially be slightly "easier"?

3. I am 36 yrs old so am guessing I'm less likely to to a sim check/type conversion for real afterwards in a 737/A320 etc than a shorts 360 or some other ancient hard-bastard iron dialled thing.

4. Because of 3. I may be storing up problems for myself for type conversions if I haven't developed a slick scan the old-fashioned way?

5. Any pros out there have an opinion whether the employers are likely to prefer students who've done the IR the old fashioned way?

On slighty different topic I'd be really grateful to hear from any current or recent ex-modular students wholve done/doing their CPL/IR at Jerez, which is also on my shortlist.

Cheers, Six-Sixty

[Hotel Mode]

I did the old modular route to CPL, finished 5 years ago. EFIS probably would be easier, but is it just screens displaying a normal ADI and RMI or full speed tape/altitude tape, map etc. If its full efis i would be careful, as most airlines still do sim checks on steam driven aircraft cos the sims are cheap.

When i was doing my IR the school was just getting Seminoles to replace Aztecs. Noone wanted to fly the seminoles because they were lighter and less complicated. According to school lore this apparantly made you less attractive to airlines! I just looked at the 3 grand it saved me and flew it. Save to say 500kgs doesnt stop a light twin being a light twin when the next aircraft i flew was 22t and definately didnt stop me getting a job! And having just jumped from 45t to 400t aeroplanes still do the same things with the same controls, they just get harder to park.

And having flown efis for 5 years i would struggle in a light twin.

[six-sixty]

Thanks, those are very interesting points.

From what I can see I think the display is a "full" EFIS:

http://www.diamond-air.at/en/press/pressarchive/30428.htm

It's a tough one!

Anyone else planning to do the IR on this machine?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Now I can't claim to be an authority on this but:

I strongly suspect the the CAA examiners will insist that aircraft used for the IRT must have displays of a certain standard type. This would likely mean that any trick EIFS kit would be required to be displaying conventional instruments arranged in the conventional way.

Therefore you would have to train with that configuration and therefore all you would really be getting is clockwork dials presented on a CRT or TFT screen. Not really a plus or a minus to be honest.

Of far more importance to you will be the amount of cockpit space you have, how easy the aircraft is to trim and how slowly it flies (slower, for once, is better). That said a nice new fleet of aircraft sharing exactly the same fit is a benefit when attending any FTO.

----------

As an aside - don't get hung up about EFIS debates. Its really very straightforward, a great improvement and takes about 5 minutes to become comfortable with. There was a huge angry debate in the past when the majority of pilots brought up on convential instruments had to move to EFIS.

For them it was a huge change after many years and it was something new and unusual to many of them. I doubt anyone under the age of 30 will find anything unusual or new about manipulating screen images and interpreting computer imagery and icons.

There is no black art to EFIS no massive change to grapple with and no subtle traps awaiting the unwary. Its better, easier, clearer and less fallible.

Cheers

WWW

[six-sixty]

Aha! One for me to clarify with the FTO involved. From the chat I had to them they did say that the one of the biggest selling points for doing the training on this AC was the EFIS! I will post back with their response.

Still as you say a fleet of brand new shiny and (presumably) reliable aircraft is a good thing whatever.

cheers

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Wellllllll, not always.

A new fleet means new snags that the engineers haven't seen before. Its means new parts inventories and new certification and approval issues. It can mean new simple problems like the cockpit gets unbearably hot or cold. It can mean new complex problems like propellers shearing off in flight (I'm thinking the new Grob Tutors).

The aircraft might be trickier to handle as its a composite airframe designed by computer to be highly efficient. My experience on this type of light aircraft suggest they can be 'slippery' to handle in terms of rapidly increasing IAS and interesting crosswind characteristics.

But I'm no designer or engineer nor indeed now a practicing instructor.

Speak to the students at the FTO in question and do it informally away from management. I suggest simply walking into their dining hall (if its the FTO I think it is) and plonking yourself down next to a load of striped student pilots at lunch. They'll give you the lowdown in 2 minutes flat.

Whatever.

Using a training aircraft equiped with 'EFIS' is NOT going to impress anyone in an airline interview and possibly if the first interview you have is for an air taxi or neight freight job they may mark you down on it.

Good luck,

WWW

[High Wing Drifter]

I think the major issue with training on a DA42 is the fully integrated FADEC system leading to rather minimalist controls and much simplified handling. I may not have my facts right but I suspect there arn't even any prop levers. I think the thing is auto everything (feather, prop, fuel...you name it!). It just knows the best settings for any given configuration. Push forward for faster, pull back for slower...more like a jet than a prop if you see what I mean.

[six-sixty]

Understood!

I don't think they've taken delivery of them yet so it's going to be hard to get the lowdown from any current students, unless there are any other FTOs that have them yet, and I don't think there are.

Taking comments on board so far, I think my original instinct to do the IR on something more traditional is winning out.

These are all quite compelling points - assuming everything that's been written to be true, I wonder if from the school's point of view the lower operating costs will outstrip any reluctance of students to do the IR on it for reasons discussed?

Interesting though. Presumably in 20 yrs time half the fleet could be made up of these new types... assuming GA is still relevant to commercial training!:eek:

[High Wing Drifter]

Interesting though. Presumably in 20 yrs time half the fleet could be made up of these new types... assuming GA is still relevant to commercial training!
Almost certainly! As far as commercial aviation is concerned, the new breed of diesel props made the current avgas powered instruments of flight look rather silly. However, I also fear the need for Aviation Grade Rapeseed and Sunflower Oil as there may well be sod all black stuff in the ground too :(

[BillieBob]

The current word, as far as I've been able to gather, is that a MEP Class Rating gained on the DA42 will be valid only on similar FADEC, diesel twins. Differences training and a further LST will be required to extend the privileges to a 'conventional' MEP aeroplane.

As to the IR - the only thing I've managed to get out of the FEs is that the aircraft must be capable of displaying 'limited panel' instruments, defined as magnetic compass and turn needle/co-ordinator. However, I have heard rumours of a proposal by the French DGAC to limit a JAA IR gained on a DA42 to aircraft fitted with similar integrated avionics (e.g. Garmin 1000).

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Who wants an IR that limits you to FADEC only Garmin equipped twins?!

Narrows you choice of potential GA employer to, err, one...

Not such a problem if you are jumping into Shiny Airways jet as they will renew your IR on the jet in the Sim training anyway. Mucho problem if you end up being offered a job hauling night frieght on a Shed or something.

Tread carefully.

WWW

[cap71n]

Sure, learning on EFIS would be easier... And very cool. But what happens on that 8/8ths night in the middle of nowhere when your EFIS display fails? Then it's back to the ol' dials, and if you never learned on them in the first place how much trouble are you going to have keeping yourself (and your pax) alive?

Just my thoughts...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hmm. Sources suggest the UK CAA are very unhappy about the twin diesels - "they are not sufficiently complex, due to FADEC and therefore the lack of mixture controls and prop leavers" is the phrase I have heard being bandied about.

It might also be worth asking if the aircrafts engines are subject to any unusual CAA airwothiness rules at present and to enquire as to fleet serviceability in general. It would be unfair to go into details about the situation at any one FTO.

However Wannabes in general who are tempted by these excellent new aircraft for training need to know that searching questions are in order before making an informed decision.

Cheers

WWW

[AppleMacster]

Standards for aircraft to be used for the IR can be found in Standards Document 7 at the CAA:
"Approval of Aeroplanes for use on Flight Tests conducted by CAA Flight Examiners". Unfortunately, I can't find it on the CAA website. They don't seem to have all the standards documents on there? :{

Incidentally, my local school/club is supposed to be getting two TwinStars and one of the instructors there reckoned the cost of training for the IR wouldn't be much cheaper due to the high lease payments. :rolleyes:

[0-8]

Hi Sixty-six,

I noticed in another thread that you are now getting close to starting your IR, what did you decide to go with in the end, clocks or glass?
When you discussed things with the school before making the decision, what was their response to the questions posed in this thread?

Also, does anyone know the CAA's official stance on this? Will the IR be limited to FADEC Garmin twins?

0-8

[EGBKFLYER]

Admittedly I only scanned the article, but I'm sure I read that the DA42 deliveries were further delayed at present? Think I read it in Some business aviation freebie newspaper thing - forget the name now.

When I was looking for a commercial school at the end of 2003, I also spoke to an operation that expected to have a DA42 by March 04. I believe they're still waiting, so even if you fancy learning in one, you may need to wait a bit yet.