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shaun2985
31st Aug 2004, 13:51
Hi there

I realise that his has probably been bandied around a zillion times, but I'm going to ask anyway.

I've been keen on becoming a pilot and have been for some years and I'd like some advice and questions answered from people who have been through the process to decide whether a career as a pilot is for me or not..



A little about myself....

GCSE qualifications: 6A's (including Maths, Science, English etc), 3B's

A Levels: Maths - B, Physics - B, Biology - C (not that good I know)

I'm currently a student at UCL (2nd year of an BSc Physics course) in London - passed the first year comfortable - phew!

While at university, I'm also enrolled in the RAF Volunteer Reserve University Air Squadron where I get training to be an officer while also getting a few flying hours in (not loads though). Apparently 300 students applied this year, and 30 were chosen, of which I was one, so, I think I'm pretty well rounded in communication, socially, academia, sports, interests, etc. (I'm not trying to brag)...

I'm physically healthy, have no asthma/breathing/cardiovascular problems, have no visual impairment. Have never touched drugs. In fact, the only thing stopping me qualifiying (medically) to be a fighter pilot in the RAF was my long legs (I was over by 1.2cm)... every other hearing, eyesight, peeing tests were all fine!

Embarrasingly, I can't swim (I used to be able to), but I'm re-learning. I still play other sports though like footie, cricket, and a bit of badminton. I'm not a wonderboy at any of them though!

I take an active interest in aviation, current affairs, and also architecture, but I'll admit that I know nowhere near enough about aviation to converse on your level (e.g. what the hell's a 'Honeywell Primus FRMS'???) and perhaps also the level as other students like me who have a similar interest in being a pilot.





I'd like to get sponsorship to become an airline pilot. My family don't have the funds to pay for lessons, and a bank loan is perhaps out of the question as I will have some £12000+ in student loans after university and I REALLY will struggle to pay it back.


So my questions are these...

Will my qualifications (and attributes - communication skills etc) be good enough (by the time I graduate in 2006) to be an airline pilot?

Will my qualifications (and attributes - communication skills etc) be good enough to qualify for sponsorship from an airline?

What does a pilot training sponsorship programme entail exactly? How many years (roughly) will I be committed to the airline?

What kind of salary will I start off with once I've completed pilot training?

What does this salary go up to later on, and after how many years? (Ballpark figure will be fine)

What are promotion prospects like?

What sort of pension plans/benefit schemes do airlines usually offer?

What kind of extra skills will I need to 'woo' airlines into accepting me into a scholarship?

What major airlines operated scholarship schemes pre-9/11 and how likely, if at all, are they to reinstate the scholarship programmes? Also, when will this happen?

I'm not too interested in flying for charter or budget airlines (absolutely, NO disrespect to pilots who fly for them! I would not be able to get around Europe on a student budget if it wasn't for you!), but I prefer to fly long-haul routes for international carriers. Should I just accept whatever comes my way? Or do you think there is a point in trying to go for the long-haul arena?

I've read conflicting reports about the lifestyle of pilots... I know it's not all glamorous, working unsocial hours and all, but I'm interested in how often, or how many hours, I would be expected to fly per month (assuming I get to that stage)? How much would I be away from home?

I've also heard that freighter pilots earn substantially more than passenger pilots? Is this true? How much do they earn and how differently do they operate?

Supposing I qualify for sponsorship with an airline, do I get any say as to which aircraft I'd prefer to fly?

Supposing I qualify for sponsorship with an airline, do I get any say as to which routes I'd prefer to fly?

How often do pilots fly the same aircraft for?

How often do pilots fly the same route for?

I'm a British citizen, what are the chances of a foreign carrier or foreign-based airline recruiting me? (I'm thinking of Delta Air Lines, Air France, Emirates etc)




That's all I can think of for now. I'd appreciate your input if you only answered one of my questions - I know it's a lot and looks daunting!

Thanks a lot


Shaun

FFP
31st Aug 2004, 18:05
Sean,

Lots of questions there and many of which other people with more experience in Civil aviation would be able to answer better than myself. One thing I would say is that you shouldn't need to post your crudentials and ask if people think " a career as a pilot is for me or not" That is something only you can decide.


Are you staying in the UAS if you do not meet the medical requirements of the RAF ?

Will they let you stay ?

BigGrecian
31st Aug 2004, 18:44
I'm not too interested in flying for charter or budget airlines (absolutely, NO disrespect to pilots who fly for them! I would not be able to get around Europe on a student budget if it wasn't for you!), but I prefer to fly long-haul routes for international carriers. Should I just accept whatever comes my way? Or do you think there is a point in trying to go for the long-haul arena?

It doesn't work quite like that. I'm sure there are many pilots who would want to fly Long Haul but your going to have to build up your jet/airline time somehow and the majority of people do this by flying short-haul to begin with, or flying for a charter airline. Given the current state of affairs I think many qualified pilots would jump at the chance of a charter/short-haul job.
Can't blame you for dreaming though!:D

As regards a foreign airline - depends on their requirements have a look at some of their websites. If your willing to re-locate and their looking to the European Pilot Market then there's no reason why not.

Sorry to hear about the medical with the UAS, they started introducing preliminary medicals as some UAS Pilots went throgh training completed EFT, and then subsequently failed medically for reasons similar to yourself!

Hope this helps
Big Grecian

shaun2985
31st Aug 2004, 20:00
Thanks for replying, to the two of you..




FFP,

I worded that question a bit incorrectly... I DO think that a career in aviation is something that I'd want to pursue. I just wanted to know if I would be successful given my credentials.

For the time being, I'm staying in my UAS for the next two years(as a ground branch member). There are a few guys who aren't pilots (failed the medical or whatever) in our squadron hoping to go on to IOT next year to join ground branch trades such as medical, engineering, and the Regt. For now, I'm happy going along to town nights, doing a bit of flying and AT, and drinking cheap beer with no committment to join! :D

I heard the situation was somewhat different a few years ago... if you failed the medical, you weren't admitted into a UAS.



BigGrecian,

I think I understand now.... flying short-haul is a neccessary ritual for new pilots to accumulate experience and flying hours (unless they actually want to stay in short-haul)...

How difficult would conversion be from flying, for example, an Easyjet 737, to a Virgin A340-500? Is every new pilot given the opportunity to learn on wide-bodies once they've knocked up a considerable number of flying hours?






Cheers for your help

bertie777
31st Aug 2004, 21:53
One piece of advice I can give you, is that if you want it enough, then you will take whatever comes your way! If your into saying 'I want to fly a 747-400' then quite frankly I have to be blunt and say - it's not going to happen (would be nice, but very unlikely) I'd like to think that all us wannabes agree on this point, and lets face it, it's best to come straight to the point.

How long have you actually wanted to become a pilot?

For most of us on this forum that fall into this category, I think I can safely say it is something that comes naturally and, it's something that you would give your right arm to do! Me for instance, this dream has been 17 years in the making! So if you pose the question is it for me, the n I whole heartedly agree with FFP in saying - you will know if it's for you.

With regards to if you get the opportunity to train on wide bodies, it's like working for EUJet and asking if you will be trained on Concorde (when it was in service!) The answer, is you have to learn to walk before you can run! If an airline you work for has wide bodied jets, then ultimately when you gain the experience, you will qualify for training on the larger airliners!

Good luck, and all I can say is don't be picky - beggars can't be choosers, as they say!

P.S Virgin do't have any A340-500's only 300 and 600 series!

see: http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/gb/allaboutus/ourfleet/index.jsp:O

scroggs
31st Aug 2004, 22:46
Shaun,

you are obviously articulate, well educated, have some range of interests and are physically fit, so (as I'm sure you are well aware) you are unlikely to fail selection on any technical issue. As you well know, those who wish to be selected for the RAF are encouraged to learn a good deal about the service before they turn up for interview. The same is true of candidates for civilian sponsorships. I imagine you would say that that is exactly what this thread is about, but the tone and breadth of your questions suggests that you have done precious little study in the enormous fund of knowledge that is Pprune.

A fairly cursory search of the Wannabes forums would have revealed that sponsorships are few and far between, and all involve a large degree of financial commitment from the student. There are no fully paid-for sponsorships in existence in UK. There are unlikely to be any in the forseeable future. The nearest that exists is the CTC scheme which defers payment of the 63K cost until you are in paid employment - which is not guaranteed. In fact, this is the first and most important point you need to take on board: unlike the Armed Services, there is no guarantee of employment with anyone at any stage through any part of training or even after being taken on by an airline. As an airline employee, should you be one of the lucky few to get that far, you are nothing more than an entry on the cost side of the accountants' books. You have a contract that - with the better employers - allows three months notice. It is frequently exercised when the economics aren't in your favour!

The vast majority of those who eventually become paid airline pilots pay their own way through training. Getting an ATPL is an expensive and stressful experience, but it is achieved every day by people with distinctly ordinary financial resources - but an extraordinary degree of determination, enthusiasm and initiative. If you are serious about ever becoming an airline pilot, you must assume that you will have to self-fund your training; any financial help you get via partial sponsorships is a bonus, not a right.

Employment after training is, as I have already intimated, difficult to obtain and extremely precarious. Job security is at the bottom end of the industrial scale. Salaries for most new pilots are equally pretty low. If you are very lucky and end up working for one of the better low-cost or charter airlines (which you will need to do for several years before you could credibly offer yourself to a longhaul airline), you could be on 40k a year or so. Many of your peers will not be so lucky and will have to suffice with a smaller employer and considerably less money. I think any discussion of what you could aspire to in the long term (including pensions and the like) is pretty premature, but a look at www.ppjn.com might give you some clues. By the way, freight pilots do not earn more than passenger aircraft pilots. Usually, it's considerably less (with a very few honourable exceptions).

You will rarely be given a choice of what aircraft you fly - and certainly not as a new guy, and, until you are fairly senior in your airline, you will have little or no influence over where you fly to. How often pilots fly a given route depends on the airline you work for and how many destinations the aircraft you fly serves.

Shaun, I think you need to immerse yourself in this site (and other civilian airline resources) a good deal more before you ask too many more questions. You need to have a certain amount of background knowledge and understanding before the answers to many of your questions can be seen and understood in context. I could go into great detail about the terms and conditions at Virgin Atlantic (and have done in the appropriate forum), but it would be totally irrelevant to your circumstances. You would need to have a basic understanding of where Virgin stands in the overall airline picture before you could make sense of what I was telling you. It's a bit like going into a detailed explanation of a Formula One car to someone who's just discovered the bicycle!

Have a good look round. Start with the reference sticky thread at the top of the Wannabes Professional Flight Training forum, and read all of the threads referred to within. Get a feel for the discussions here; you will learn a great deal from them. Go and visit a local flying school and talk to the wannabes in training there. Have a good think about the threads from disillusioned wannbes and decide whether this is really the way you want to go.

I hope you find this has given you some food for thought!

Scroggs

philltowns
31st Aug 2004, 23:15
Scroggs,

There are no fully paid-for sponsorships in existence in UK.

Not trying to nit-pick, but just thought I should point out that the Air Atlantique group occasionally offer fully-funded sponsorships with no financial input required from cadets (although you are required to work for your training!).

These are, however, extremely difficult to get on, as i have recently found out :sad:

shaun2985
3rd Sep 2004, 16:14
Thanks for responding guys.... your input is appreciated. And, also sorry for the delay in replying.


bertie777,

My wanting to be a pilot is unquestionable... I've wanted to be one since I was around 4 or 5. Suffice to say, I have a huge interest in aviation, and assuming it as a career would be a dream come true for me.

I think I've got the general idea that every pilot has to work his/her way up from small jets to big ones if that's where they want to go.




scroggs,

Your point is a valid one... I don't know the whole procedure about becoming a pilot because it looks so daunting and the info I want is often buried in pages and pages of forum threads! But most of the questions I asked I already knew the answers to, I wanted confirmation and concise and first-hand information about them. I guess I wanted everything I needed served on a plate of FAQs.

My fears were confirmed in your second para... 'involve a large degree of financial committment from the student'. Damn. As I said, money is few and far between for me... already I'm milking a lot off my family. It seems likely that, if I have to fund myself it'll have to be with a flying school abroad. I've heard that in certain places in Asia, internationally-recognised flying qualifications can be earned for around £3000 worth of flying hours and tutolage. I'm in the middle of writing letters for information etc, but I was wondering if anyone here had any thoughts about these kind of places in Asia? I assume the reason it's so cheap is because of low operating costs for aircraft.... and I'm assuming the course is just as intense and academically challenging to any equivalent course in the UK.

I'll certainly be browsing through the site more, thanks for your post!

scroggs
3rd Sep 2004, 18:01
There may be schools in Asia, but there are none that offer a JAA CPL/IR, which is what you need. There are some in the USA which can turn out to be cheaper than the UK, but choosing the right school is a minefield. You will need to budget somewhere in the order of 40k as a minimum. Yes, that's 40,000 pounds. You might get a PPL for 3k, but it's no use to you as a professional qualification.

I say again, read this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=131649) and the appropriate links contained there. You will find the vast majority of the information you need. That is why I collated it.

Scroggs