I will NOT pay for a T/R

[skyman68]

I would like to inform companies that we are not able or not willing to pay for a type rating.
We do NOT want to pay for a t/r if there is no job contract BEFORE the type rating.

I(WE ARE) am tired and fed up of these companies who try to sell me (US)T/R on old planes.
I am fedup of companies who try to make money from us (pilots) because they can not simply find customers to run their old planes.
IF you are busted by the governement or by commercial competition, it is your problem! if you have to file bankruptcy, bye bye. A better company will replace you and we do not care about you!

Please try to understand that we have commercial license to fly planes, it means if you want we fly for you, you have to pay us...


If you do not understand ,I resume:

WE ARE PISSED OF SUCH PRACTICES AND WE ASK YOU TO STOP TO SELL US TYPE RATINGS, WE WILL NOT PAY YOU.

thank you for your cooperation.(I do not really like to write such things, but I am really fedup of this politic)

[Flying Farmer]

Skyman you sound a little tetchy today.
Fully agree with you that in an ideal world none of us would pay for our own type ratings, BUT some people here may have circumstances which require them to climb the ladder as fast as possible. After training costs and lack of income and mortgages hanging around their necks, the list is endless, some may feel that investing in their future to secure an income for themselves and family comes first.
Sadly it's not an ideal world, I wish it was.
Hope we all get the break we need without this extra financial burden.
Fly safe.

FF

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

I(WE ARE)
Please speak just for yourself.

I would like to inform companies that we are not able to pay for a type rating

Thats what this rant is really about isnt it!

WE ARE PISSED OF SUCH PRACTICES AND WE ASK YOU TO STOP TO SELL US TYPE RATINGS, WE WILL NOT PAY YOU.

I for one am glad that if I wish to change types or Airline that the facilities are available for ME should I wish to use them.

.(I do not really like to write such things, but I am really fedup of this politic)
Skyman, everytime I read somthing written by you it is "such a thing"

Just try to be patient, "All good things come to those who wait"and all that. Maybe you should chillout a bit, last thing you want is your class1 being pulled for heart problems! Seriously though, maybe your attitude is holding you back a little?

I can fully appreciate most cannot/will not on principle, pay for a type rating. However nobody is forcing you too and the way the job market is going at present I would doubt you will need one in the next 12-24 months. Ether that or will will see bonds becoming the norm. (just my opinion)

Those wannabes who can afford a type rating MAY have a better chance at employment and MAY get that job sooner than someone without

I think youll find that the majority of companys who run these schemes have nice new jets and sims to do the training on and the airlines who started these schemes have brand new fleets of ether 737-800's or A319's so hardly old planes.

Regards

2WINGS


:ok:

[pipo the clown]

Dear Skyman,

I hoped that more people said this in the past so that this sick jobmarket did not exist.
I once bought with my stupid head an EMB-120 typerating for the price of 45000 Euro's.
When I finally was in the line for upgrade to captain, the company folded.
Finding any kind of job with this airplane in Europe is very difficult.
Now I am unemployed with a dept of 65000 euro's.
I consider getting a 737 type very dangerous because when something happens with the Lcc's you are doomed.
You will have to compete with hightime 737 pilots.
So I will wait, the economy is improving and I hope there will not be so many new pilots.
Financially it is better to wait and in my case I will only accept work with bonding for any kind of airplane TR.

I say No Bucks, no Buck Rogers.

Sincerely G.J.S. Groenendijk

[The Potter]

I know that Skyman is being very forceful with his post but you have to say that he has a point. It's not just that we are expected, by many carriers, to fork out for a TR these days but many of our colleagues are prepared to work for buttons once they have the said type endorsed on thier hot little licences. And the result? Our pay, terms & conditions are rapidly deteriorating once we are flying on line.

I recently 'bit the bullet' after years of trying to find a jet operator to give me a break, & being determined not to self fund a type ratng, & I capitulated for a 757 rating. Fantastic isn't it that My Travel are now laying off 156 guys all with loads of hours on 757/767s! The result: I am £20,000 lighter & still no nearer to a job on the medium haul jets. Possibly even further away than flying my T.P. around the night skys.

What about the guys who paid for other types & end up actually flying the line? Well, some have gone out to Asia to earn about £1,000 a month! Others have joined the ranks of Skyeurope to earn £800 a month! Some are even paying for the 'privilege' of flying an aircraft with 148 fare paying passengers on board. What about terms & conditions of employment? Well, try asking the Ryanair contract guys who get no sick pay, no pension plan, no holiday entitlement, no loss of licence, who have to pay to stay away from base all out of their own salary.

You see the tip of the iceberg is us paying for our ratings. It's all down hill once you have been employed because our caring sharing employers are fully aware that we are prepared to prostiute ourselves & our profession for that left hand seat. No replies please from the snotty nosed, short trouser brigade. When you grow up & have a living to make to pay for your mortgage & a decent family life & you are not still relying on 'The Bank of Dad' to fund you you will realise that by paying for our own type ratings we have seriously damaged our long term careers.:)

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

And paying for an instructors rating and working for £5p/h to build up hours isn't the same!?!:confused:

Going to Ryanair to build up some jet hours isn’t (that) bad an idea. If you want to fly for Virgin/BA/Monarch etc. you need good hours on type. Which you’re not going to get other than flying for an airline of sorts.

This is a cut-throat industry im afraid, nobody owes you a crust. I guess its a little like an apprenticeship, you start off on poor pay and unfavourable conditions then when you’ve got the experience they ether offer you better terms and pay or you give THEM the flick and go elsewhere.

If you’ve got qualifications and experience then it’s not too difficult to find work. How do you get qualifications and experience? Well you ether put up with the bulls hit, get lucky or go the easy option and do another job!

2WINGS
:ok:

[Firestorm]

Yes. Interesting posts. And where are BALPA when all this is going on?

[parkfell]

The situation we are now faced with is simply a function of market forces, and what the employer can get away with to protect the bottom line.

Unless and until demand begins to exceed supply, don't expect any rapid rethink on this issue from some companies.

From their point of view, why should they folk out cash, when they
can persuade pilots to pay for it themselves? Just what loyalty this generates is an other matter.

Having said that, it is out of order to charge for applying/interview/simulator assessment.

Any union is only as strong as the members. Without their positive support, significant changes are unlikely to occur.

[Flying Farmer]

Good sound stuff 2 Wings

Fully agree, went down the instructor route myself to earn a pittance in a job with little or no security. I consider it part of my apprenticeship in securing a RHS some time in the future.

Work from the bottom up, gain experience on the way, see how commercial operations work in real life, all part of the learning curve.

If it makes sound sense and you have some experience why not go the SSTR route if it gains you £10000 a year extra.

Potter "When you grow up & have a living to make to pay for your mortgage & a decent family life & you are not still relying on 'The Bank of Dad' to fund you you will realise that by paying for our own type ratings we have seriously damaged our long term careers."

Can't agree with that, I have a big mortgage soon to be twice as big and zero family life at present because I chose to instruct, with 2 kids as well to support do you think <£10000 as an instructor is sufficient? nope thought not, neither does my bank :\
I would fund a TR like a shot if there was a guarantee of a position at the end of it. Guess I won't be funding my own for a moment.

All the best,

FF

[scroggs]

The old route of instructing for a pittance was an honourable one - there's precious little money for anyone in the local flight school game, so it's perfectly reasonable for those who need experience to offer their labour in exchange for that flying. However, Ryanair et al are making very serious profits, and their company executives are salting away very handsome pension funds. There is absolutely no reason why they couldn't and shouldn't pay for the type training of their chosen employees - except that you lot will save them the bother. And then you'll work for next to nothing while they make a profit on your back.

If you want to work for Virgin/Monarch/BA etc, and expect your type ratings to be paid for when you join, and to get a pension, sick pay, time off, allowances, etc, you may be disappointed when you get there as your willingness to work for nothing is affecting the market right now, and the big boys are starting to take notice - witness BA's recent 'tightening' of their pay and conditions, and recruitment of already-typed DEPs.

I have my contract, and I retire in the not-too-distant future, so I guess I shouldn't really care what your prostitution does to this industry, but I do. We at Virgin fought like hell to improve our lot, through BALPA, and we succeeded. The thoughless actions of those who wish to get into aviation at any cost are undermining all that good work.

Just remember, one day you'll have to explain to your children why your chosen career no longer pays a decent living wage. Were you part of the problem?

Scroggs

[Maxiumus]

2WingsOnMyWagon:

"I guess its a little like an apprenticeship, you start off on poor pay and unfavourable conditions then when you’ve got the experience they ether offer you better terms and pay or you give THEM the flick and go elsewhere"


I should hope you regard flying an FR 73 as an apprenticeship. Flying metal this heavy is no apprenticeship, we're not talking Cessenas here. We're talking about the likes of FR screwing the industry. And if it continues, you'll be giving no-one the flick as everyone else will be just as bad.

Wake up people, you pay for your rating, you are directly contributing to your own less than rosy future.

Good post there Scroggs

[M.85]

Skyman,

Keep looking and keep faith..your turn will come..believe me..it happens when you least expect it..

In the meanwhile,instructing is a very good solution ..
Saty in touch..you have my email..i am scheduled for a left seat in March..ill be there to give the word for you when you get more time in.

Regards,

M>85

[Flypuppy]

I am going to hate myself for saying it, but, very nicely put Scroggs.

I have been trying to say the same thing for ages. Why won't anyone listen? Where is BALPA or the IPA? Why do I bother?

[Joe_Bar]

Maybe one way to turn around this nonsense of paying for the privilege to work by paying for your Typerating is to inform the public about the real situation in the flying business.

Let the media, study/career counsellors know how it really works at this moment so the number of wannabees will decrease.

If BALPA/IALPA would make an effort in informing the right channels/media the market will favour pilots in the future and the negotiations will become easier.

We need to attack those "we need a lot of pilots because of the pension bulge" nonsense stories which turn up every time an aviation specialist from the newspaper visits a flight school.

Last year such a story appeared again coincidentally one day before the new website from the KLM flight academy was launched.

Just my toughts,

Cheers JB

[circlip]

Below is an e-mail I received from parc recruitment recently.
Included is a cunning invitation to pay them 800 eurodollars to attend a interview and simcheck for air Asia, Yes a few blokes got jobs but a lot did not and I myself did not bother as the whole thing is a fine example of profiteering

Air Asia Recruitment

As you are now aware Air Asia will undergo significant expansion over the next 12 to 18 months.

The first officer recruitment positions will begin training at the end of July. To gain a place on the next course, candidates will undergo the following:

Aptitude Testing
Psychological assessment
Simulator assessment

These will take place over 2 days in Dublin with the simulator check, taking place on the B737-200.

Those who attain the required standard on all assessments are guaranteed a position on the Air Asia first officer programme.

The cost of the assessment programme and simulator check is €800. This fee is non-refundable and is payable in advance.

Selection will be on a "first come" basis. More details about this assessment will be released closer to the time. Please ensure you send us a completed application form if you are interested in this programme.

The training programme for successful candidates will be as follows:

LOCATION: DUBLIN

A) First Aid
Initial CRM course (2 days)
Initial security course
Dangerous goods training
Wet drills
Fire & Smoke training

Course duration: A maximum of 5 days

LOCATION: DUBLIN

B) Audio visual training
10 days ground school training
1 day exam plus TCAS and EGPWS
1 day performance plus weight and balance and exam

LOCATION: LONDON OR PALMA (TBA)

C) Simulator Training
12 four hour sessions
1 four hour LST (Licence Skills Test)


LOCATION: SWEDEN
D) Base Check
A minimum of 6 landings or when the required standard is achieved


N.B: For those attending the assessments please bring a letter from your financial institution verifying that sufficient funds are in place to complete the course.

[scroggs]

Don't get me wrong; I well appreciate that in a buyer's market (as it has been for the past three years or so) a paid-for type rating may have been the factor that put you ahead of the queue when it came to getting a job. The same was true in '89-'90 when Air Europe and Dan Air went down and the whole employment market was on its knees. Arguably, the situation recently has been worse than that time.

However, the cost of a type rating has risen exponentially with increasing legislation and the expansion of the numbers of investors expecting to reap a return out of the unfortunates who buy the training. The job market declined so far and so quickly that many people espoused the notion of gaining experience 'for free' (i.e. working without being paid), and it's now becoming the norm.

Well, surprise! The market is now getting much healthier for newbies. The airlines would love to convince you that they can't possibly afford to train you and pay you at the same time, but, as more and more of you realise that they're talking complete bollocks, they will find that they have to stump up.

The argument between Ryanair and its pilots about union representation is probably the most important event in British - even European - aviation right now. It is about the principle of a fair payment for fair work, and the protection that European employment legislation is supposed to give you, without employer intimidation. The pilots (with BALPA and IALPA help) will win, though some may be hurt in the process. The outcome will fundamentally change the way ab-initio recruitment works in UK, and rid it of Ryanair's Dickensian approach. The least you can do is support this process and refuse to pay out for interviews, assessments and training that airlines should accept as reasonable costs. It's a big ask, but it must be done if things are to improve for all of you.

Scroggs

[Vee One...Rotate]

The whole "this industry does not owe you a living" statement pops up every once in awhile...fair enough, there is some sense in it...but being disgusted/angry about being expected to pay large sums so someone will simply glance at your CV or pay huge sums to get a type rating and some hours on type is not the same thing as wanting an easy ride. Not even slightly. Especially bearing in mind many have made massive, sometimes almost crippling, financial sacrifices up until this point already.

In an ideal world, most airline's would carefully select their potential pilots, train them and treat them as an investment...the way most reputable companies do it. Of course, this doesn't happen in reality. Bugger. Okay then, we'll have to pay for our basic licence and training - not fun but fair enough. It's when you hear stories of airlines charging low-houred pilots to fly for them for 100 hours or so...with passengers onboard. Yes, the pilot PAYS to work for the company all day.

I understand the opinion that some people have that it's good to have the option to do things like this if, for example, someone really wants to get up and on the ladder quickly if there are family commitments etc. but I can't help thinking these practices simply further degrade Ts & Cs and the profession as a whole. The words foot, own and shoot come to mind...

All a bit worrying for a wannabe...:(

V1R

P.S.

Good post scroggs - I agree and am sliiiiightly more optimisitc things will be that bit better when these issues will directly affect me...of course, they could very easily be that bit worse as well.

V1R :bored:

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

Maximus
I should hope you regard flying an FR 73 as an apprenticeship. Flying metal this heavy is no apprenticeship

I’m not calling pilots of smaller/older aircraft apprentices. What I’m trying to imply is that, if you’re low houred and starting your first job I would say it is a little like an apprenticeship no matter if the aircraft is a PA28 or an A340. If you misunderstood this, I apologise.

Scroggs, I appreciate your honest and unemotional posts. I feel this is a very difficult subject to debate as pilots we want the best for our colleagues (present and future) and ourselves of course. I agree that it is totally wrong to pay for a sim check, interviews etc, but as mentioned it is a buyers market and as long as people are willing to pay then the airline in question isn’t going to stop applying the charge. One thing I think we may see is a potential pilot being put off by the spiralling cost of training compared against the decreasing pay scale. (That’s if certain FTO's stop promising jobs at the end of their overpriced courses!)

Ryanair is becoming a stepping-stone to the more prestigious airlines but maybe if these prestigious airlines stopped hoovering up all the experienced pilots and started their own cadet schemes we would definatly see a reduction in applications to FR. As long as MOL can replace pilots with fresh blood he’s not going to care!

I know a few experienced pilots who have become desperate enough to self fund a type rating and some of them got work through it. So for them it was a worthwhile thing to do, but I would only do it if I could safely afford it.

From what I can tell the cost of TR's are going down, the cost of an A320/ B737 being around the 20k mark, however please correct me if I’m wrong.

I hope this thread can stay balanced and objective

Regards
2 WINGS
:ok:

[MAX]

Stick to your guns Skyman. I never payed for a rating and never will. I refused to purchase even an MCC as I strongly believe a quality company will cover this in their type rating. Hasnt done me any harm. Still in my twenties and exactly where I want to be (although a warmer climate would be nice ;) ) Stick with it mate and you will find yourself with a quality outfit, less debt and actually ENJOYING the job.

MAX:cool:

[scroggs]

It's unlikely that the established airlines will ever set up cadetship schemes that would supply more than a tiny proportion of their pilot requirements. For airlines like Virgin Atlantic, which are entirely or predominantly longhaul, it is essential that their pilots come with a great deal of handling experience of reasonable-sized aircraft - because they sure as hell aren't going to get any after they join! Ryanair, Easyjet and most of the charter airlines have traditionally been used as a stepping stone to BA and the like, and that's not likely to change for the reasons above.

As for experienced pilots funding their own retraining, that's always happened in times when jobs were hard to come by. If you have a few thousand hours on, say, 737s and you're after a 757 job, the rating may get you there - it's certainly has a lot more clout when wielded by an experienced airline pilot (even without significant hours on type) than it does when held by a newbie. Bear in mind also that pilots taking this course of action are likely to be looking for contract jobs overseas rather than long-term employment with a stable European carrier.

2WOMW, you're right; the increasing costs of getting a first jet job will eventually cause the supply of self-funding pilots who'll pay to work to dry up! Even Ryanair will realise this, and, as competition for new pilots hots up with airlines' recovery and expansion, they will have to improve the package to attract their share of the available pool. The trouble is, they are so anti-pilot that they will drag their heels on this, and this is just one of the things that union participation will help to sort out.

The fact that TRs are coming down in cost is, I reckon, a symptom of the increasing numbers of TRTOs in the marketplace, and not really (yet) a function of reducing numbers of self-sponsored students. That will happen, though, and the first signs of that will be the removal of some of the weaker TRTOs from the scene.

This is a big subject, and it's not going to get sorted by one thread on Pprune, but it will help if more of you begin to understand the problems that paying to work causes - and the effect it will definitely have on the rewards you presumably look forward to in later life. Look at the music or acting professions for examples of this; the end result is a very few high-earners and vast numbers living on benefits hoping for an occasional period of employment. However, most musicians and actors don't spend 100k getting their skills!

Scroggs

[Fancy Navigator]

... Great posts Scroggs ! Hope everybody realises that.
All the best,
FNav

[RowleyUK]

So as it stands, there are so many of us out here who aren't willing to pay for our own TR's. If this is the case then where are the people that are paying for their own TR's?

I dont know anybody who admits to having paid £50 for an interview with Ryanair........infact.........most of the pilots i come across laugh at the idea of paying for a TR let alone an interview........but.........it still goes on!!!!

From where i am sat the whole situation is laughable. £50 for an interview is a none starter! Infact its damn right hilarious!:{ :{ It doesnt even stop there....going on to pay for your uniform once your in the door is even funnier......The day i give-in to that is the day i might aswell bend over and let the beancounters have their wicked way!!

Scroggs..... You quite rightfully say PPRUNE isnt the place to sort this but it certainly is a good starting point...........I hope this thread goes onto be somehing big and sorts out the whole problem with self funded TR's!!!

Scroggs.....Im with you son! I will NEVER pay for my own TR or interview!!
:ok: :ok:

[scroggs]

Rowley I didn't say Pprune wasn't the right place, just stated my opinion that it won't get sorted here. It's most certainly the right place to express your opinions; hopefully some of those in a position to influence things may read them and move things in the right direction. However, I won't hold my breath. In the end, it will be the market and the unions that will force change.

Of all the wannabes trying to get jobs in UK, a sizeable majority are not, sadly, subscribers to Pprune. Many of those who do read Pprune never contribute; they hope to get an advantage by reading things here and using the knowledge gained elsewhere. Many, who are rightly afraid to stick their noses above the parapet, will just keep their heads down and pay for whatever they can get and sod those who come after them. That, unfortunately, is the way of the world. Integrity is no more endemic in the wannabe population than it is in the world at large, I'm afraid. Let's just hope that those individuals never get decent jobs!

Scroggs

[AIRWAY]

Scroggs..... You quite rightfully say PPRUNE isnt the place to sort this but it certainly is a good starting point...........I hope this thread goes onto be somehing big and sorts out the whole problem with self funded TR's!!!


Isn't it because of "a thread" here @ PPRuNe that MOL is jumping in a rage in his office threatening legal... So PPRune can have an effect... Even if it is a small voice.

[Air Born]

I've just seen a local instructor get a massive legup directly due to having done a type rating...and he'll be working for even less than his instructor salary for a fair while! It makes that route look awfully tempting and when you're sitting in your 30's or - heaven help us - 40's and still waiting for that lucky break, it's kinda hard to be noble and refuse to 'prostitute' in the hopes that it might improve the market and working conditions in the future. All the while watching younger guys getting jobs with the extra 10 years they have to offer.

As a community, pilots tend not to stick together and would easily step on eachother for a job if the need arose. It's a great idea that we should all unite and change the market, but while there are just a few out there willing to do whatever it takes too get ahead, we're screwed.

And even while writing this I'm asking myself the same old question - as a late starter in the industry, aren't I willing to do whatever it takes to grab the career that is disappearing with the mounting years?

[scroggs]

But what is that career worth if you're prepared to work for nothing? Why should an employer ever pay you if your love of flying takes precedence over your self respect?

I have no problem with the concept of apprenticeship, and the principle of paying less for less useful personnel, but I have no time for those who devalue my position by working for nothing. I worked bloody hard and for a very long time to get to a reasonably well-paid flying job. Now guys like you come along and effectively tell my employer that I'm too expensive and you'll work for much less - and you want me to support you? Get real!

Scroggs

[onedaymaybe?]

For years I have had pilots tell me, not to bow down to the course of buying a type rating, and for the so called good of aviation I did not do so....."Let them pay for it " they said...But they did not do so...I remained in my instrucing job waiting...Watching students ( yes younger ones I admit) going and getting the jobs that I had been told that I would oneday get...

Its all well and good, for the guys who have had their type ratings paid for by the airlines when aviation was in the good old days, but times have changed. And for someone in their late 30's still instructing, there is no future while trying to bring up a family of 2 children..On an instructors wage.

Yes aviation is picking up for the new ones, but I am not a 20's something new one. And with a family I needed to do something. If some Airline Captain who has had the airlines pay for his career so far does not like it, then let it be... but that will not look after my family..He is welcome to their opinion and I will not try to go into it with them...My decision to pay for a type rating is a personal one and my own alone..

I have recently paid for a type rating and have been offered more jobs and opportunities in 2 weeks than I did as a 3000 hour odd pilot, in 4 years. I am now endeavouring on a job that will not only give me 100's of hours of jet experience but, is also paying for me as well..(this is what will help me keep food on my families table)...

There are still companies out there who appreciate the efforts we have gone to to get our qualifications and ratings and show it.

It may not be a popular move with some people, but that is tough..

I can now look after my family properly for the first time in years and not look forward to a future of uncertainty. ...And it is my family not other pilots..that come first in my life...

Aviation is my work...Family is my life...

[Joe_Bar]

onedaymaybe?

Maybe now you can change that to 'onedayfinally!'

Which type are you rated on now, may I ask?

Cheers JB

[G SXTY]

I remember the howls of outrage when a certain Irish airline introduced the ‘£50 to read your CV’ scam - sorry - scheme. Of course, no-one would stoop to handing over cash to have their CV read. Then within a month the posts started appearing here: “I’ve applied and they haven’t answered – anyone else heard from them?” Or, even better: “I’ve applied and haven’t heard anything – bloody rip-off.” :rolleyes:

Small wonder – if people are prepared to roll over that easily – that certain ‘enterprising’ employers will take you for all you’re worth. Anyone who can’t see that it’s the thin end of a very nasty wedge is naive in the extreme. If anyone needs convincing, witness paying for uniforms, medicals, drinks, company travel, no sick pay, no pension, etc etc. What next – paying for the extra fuel if you go-around?

A rhetorical question – where is your line in the sand? At what point do you think “this really isn’t worth it?” Or in simple financial terms, when does the expenditure in ‘buying the ticket’ exceed the eventual rewards?

I know it’s a difficult issue, and I know this discussion can’t solve all the problems of the industry (although if it gets people thinking, it’s already served a useful purpose). I would dearly love to fly commercially, but I’m absolutely clear in my mind – if future ‘employment’ involves paying for everything from bottles of water to type ratings, and tugging my forelock to management that wouldn’t look out of place in a Victorian mill, it really isn’t worth it.

[The Potter]

You're absolutely right, Scroggs, & when people begin to realise that an airline pilot's job is exactly that: a job & not a hobby then maybe we can put a little bit of dignity back into avaition.

You have touched on the wider subject of not just funding TRs but what we are unfortunately happy to accept once we are flying commercially, which, I have to say, is very little. A guy who paid for his B737 rating in the spring with another TRTO started with FR is July. He has paid for just about everything, including having to fund his own CRM & SOP course with them!

We shouldn't just keep on about our friends at FR, though. Look now at the rotten offer from Flyjet. If you pay £22,000 for your 757 rating you may get a job with them. Until last month they were considering ditching their 757s altogether & going down the Airbus route, that was if they survived at all. And the alst comment came from none other than their then DOFO. How safe is your £22,000 if they were so insecure just two months ago? But they sure as hell will take your money.

[Crash and Burn]

The only time I would consider buying a type rating would be if a bunch of pilots got together to start a new outfit. I would also expect those who put their money up front to get a reasonable return on their investment since the majority would be paying interest on it. At this point I think the connection between pigs and flying or hell with a severe wind chill would be appropriate.

[Firestorm]

Remember all the furore about university fees and student loans earlier this year? Did a single pilot put their story forward of the £50k course, no student loan and possibly having to spend another £25k joining fee for his first job? I read the broadsheets most days of the week, and didn't see any, and have to, rather shamefully, admit that I didn't either, but am waiting for the subject to reaar it's head again.

It's not that I believe anyone ows me a living, but I do think that the students need to have their problems put into context.

It's a tough subject, but I won't be forking out for a type rating again (I did pay for a Twin Otter rating 5 years ago, on the promise of a job, which was honored), and definitely not a jet rating: I simply can't afford it. And at my age, I don't want to be paying off loans, but saving into a pension fund.

I challenged BALPA about the Easy Jet scheme/scam once. It took a while to get a reply, and then they said that they were pleased to see an airline expanding and succeeding, and that if the TRSS scheme was amechanic to help thta happen, then BALPA would support it. 1% sub from all those pilots... Cynical, maybe.

We are all free to make our own decisions about our destiny: I think you know mine!

[onedaymaybe?]

Joe-Bar

Changing my name from onedaymaybe? to OnedayFnally...I like the sound of that..

What did I get rated in you asked

I got A320 Rated a few short time ago, and nearly all the guys who have gone through that I know are working for or are about to work for good airlines..

If I had a choice of an airline paying for my rating...Yes Please

But then again I would also rather an airline payed for my licence too..

But I did not have these offers being given to me..It was a choice I have not regretted.

[Fancy Navigator]

Scroggs nailed it, I think !
Airlines should pay for your type rating. Doing the full CPL/IR with the written ATPL's and MCC should really be enough... Ideally! Rare are the other professions for which so much money is invested.
Unfortunately, a lot of people are willing to sell their grandma and their dog to get ahead of the queue, which is very sad.... The argument is that we are in a new "market", that things are different.... Well, they contribute largely to the situation....
Also, I strongly oppose the argument which sometimes appear on the forum which says that paying for a TR is, in a sense, part of your training, a bit like a FI rating, etc....
Here again, a FI rating will give you a job as a FI, full stop. Being a FI is not about your ability to fly (you have already shown you can fly!), but about your ability to teach students.
A TR on the B737 might (and I say, might) give you a job on the B737, but not on any other type. Also, when you see that 200 hour pilots with a TR get a job against a 2000-hour guy who can't afford a TR, this is not normal!
This is all non sense because a TR restricts you more than anything else as someone with a 737 TR will be of no interest to turbo prop operators.... :uhoh: Obviously, you will gain many jet hours, but at the end of the day, all you do is keeping in place a wrong system, a system that exploits people.
Why pay to have your CV read? Obviously, they know there will be people willing to pay the money, so they thrive on it. After the CV, you have to pay for your TR. Here again, they know that there will be people desperate enough to do it. Next, will be paying the uniform, the landing fees.... who knows? Very sad.... :(
So, obviously, a thread on a pilots' forum might not change much, but it might start people thinking... Also, maybe the unions could step in and do something about this situation.
Regards,
FNav

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I have every sympathy with someone who does pay for their own type rating. Reading as one does the opportunities that arose shortly afterwards for some it does seem worth it.

Nevertheless as a principle I deplore it happening as the principle is infinitely extendable to the point of destroying the profession.

Were it to become widespread I believe the CAA would step in to halt the practice. Aviation is so very much larger than in the recession of the early 90's - I therefore suspect that self funded type ratings are no more common percentage wise now than they have ever been in bad times.

There are certainly though more people numerically going down this worrying path.

Cheers

WWW

[Air Born]

Wee Weasle et al - I agree with the principle - wholeheartedly. It would be great if we would all stand up and be counted, but, as Scroggs (I think) pointed out earlier, plenty of wannabees don't even read pprune, or contribute, let alone subscribe to the general consensus here.

It's a darn sight easier to bang on about principles when you already have a job. No job at all, or a potentially badly paid one, at least initially? I know I'd do what it takes ..... if my bank 'balance' could stand the further strain.

[scroggs]

I am a realist; I entirely understand that there will always be those who will have the ability to spend their way into a job (though if they've got that much money you'd have to wonder why they bother!), and, over the last few years, a type rating does seem to have given some people an advantage. I have no doubt that it will continue this way for the moment, and I don't blame people for taking this route, but I believe that the market will eventually make it too much of a lottery for airlines and they will have to start providing more training at their own expense again.

My real anger is reserved for those who, having paid for their training, announce (like the originator of another recent thread) that they'll go on working for an airline for little or no pay. That is what really devalues the pilot's job. I can't understand why a person would do this, but it seems that they are out there.

The Ryanair situation is intolerable and will be addressed once the airline is forced to accept union representation - as long as the pilot workforce retains its unity of purpose. In the meantime, we can only press for incremental improvement in the training business, eventually hoping to persuade airlines to recognise and assume their training responsibilities. It won't happen overnight!

Scroggs

[flaps to 60]

My real anger is reserved for those who, having paid for their training, announce (like the originator of another recent thread) that they'll go on working for an airline for little or no pay. That is what really devalues the pilot's job. I can't understand why a person would do this, but it seems that they are out there.

Scroggs

Maybe, just maybe they love the job so much that they would do anything to get it or stay in it.

I hate the idea of having to pay for ratings but it is a natural progression of this industry.

As Airborn said

It's a darn sight easier to bang on about principles when you already have a job.

Would you and all your colleagues in VS take a pay freeze for a year in order to pay for type ratings for new lads? Of course not, you look after your own but with rising fuel prices increasing wages etc etc an airline will try and save money somewhere.

Once again i reiterate that i hate that principle but if I had to I would have paid for my own rating beacuse i got sick and tired of waiting for the market to get better and wasted years doing so. Years that i could have been building P1, getting nearer command, maybe moving into medium/long haul buying a house when prices were lower, putting into a pension earlier etc etc.

I got lucky and my company paid for my rating but i did seriuosly investigate buying a course with line experience.

The other thing is that with the influx of foreign TYPE RATED pilots and employment in the EU effectively blocked off to British Pilots what is a guy gonna do.

To those who dont want to pay thats perfectly fine sit around and wait to see if the market to gets better as i did for over 5 years.

And for those who are thinking about it ask yourself this is a blue book better with a type rating in it and a few hours in or just saying CPL/IR?

[Flypuppy]

Flaps to 60,

Before I go any further I want to point out that I appreciate your point of view and to an extent can understand what you are saying, both here and on other threads that have run about self sponsored type ratings, but there are still some significant issues that need to be addressed namely:


Why should pilots have to subsidise a commercial organisation's training budget? (remember they can reclaim VAT on training - the indivdual cannot)

Consider the questions I asked about responsibility for insurance while paying to work. Who is responsible if the paying to work pilot breaks the airframe? I have yet to hear any answers to that one, from anyone.

I also find it interesting that many of the people who advocate paying for type ratings never paid for them themselves.

If you are now a first officer, and your company told you that you were no longer required, but replaced you with a paying for line time first officer would your enthusiasm for paid type ratings and line time still be as strong?

Just in case you think I am being too pious, the sickness is spreading beyond first job pay for your own type ratings:



quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Position:
B747 Type Rating / First Officer Programme

Experience/ Skills:
1500 Hours jet experience

Details:
P*** Aviation, in association with a leading international airline, are pleased to offer First Officers the opportunity to gain a type rating, and fly the B747-400.

In this unique programme, P***offer you the chance to self-sponsor a type rating for the Boeing 747-400 aircraft. Upon successfully gaining this type rating, we will then offer a one year contract as First Officer, flying intercontinental routes. Upon completion of this year, P*** Aviation will, using our position as the biggest flight crew leasing company in the world, endeavour to find further assignments for you.

Interested applicants should have the following minimum requirements:

- JAR Licence
- Class 1 JAR Medical
- EU Passport
- Minimum 2500 hours total time including 1500 hours on jet aircraft.
- Candidates with minimum 3000 hours TurboProp 'Glass Cockpit' experience may also be considered.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This scheme means you have to provide a bank guarantee of €32,000 (so if you dont make the grade you have no job and a whopping big loan to service) plus if you do make the grade the agency will deduct €2667 per month from your €4000 per month salary for a year, you have to organise your own transport to a hotel down route which you have to organise and pay for yourself plus it is up to the paying flightcrew to look after tax and social security payments (which is based on your €4000 p/m salary). The entry requirments for this scheme are exactly the same as those for the "host" airline.

As G-SXTY very astutely put it:
where is your line in the sand? At what point do you think “this really isn’t worth it?” Or in simple financial terms, when does the expenditure in ‘buying the ticket’ exceed the eventual rewards?

[scroggs]

Maybe, just maybe they love the job so much that they would do anything to get it or stay in it.

Not good enough, I'm afraid. Just imagine if the same principle was to be exercised at McDonald's, or on the railways, or in the Police Force? People queuing up for jobs without pay? The various employers would be laughing - until the incumbent work forces said 'over our dead bodies!'. Such practises undermine the rights of those already in employment, and will not be accepted by any workforce - the aviation one is no different.

The practise of self-sponsoring type ratings will not be solved by pressure from those at the bottom of the system, it will only be successfully addressed by those at the top, under economic and union pressure. However, it is a reality and it will take time to eliminate it.

However, the practise of working for nothing is anathema to all paid employees in any industry, and is guaranteed to alienate them. Do it, by all means, but don't expect any friends or help on your way through aviation life. It is sh*tting on your own doorstep in the biggest possible way, and it will come to haunt you.

Please understand that I do not count paid-for line training from a TRTO as working for nothing; I see it as an extension of the SSTR problem. The business of line training people who will not work for your organisation is simply a service provided at a cost to those who feel it necessary to go this route. To an extent, it's rather like training for an Advanced Driving Licence; probably unnecessary, but desirable to some. However, the idea of charging your employees for that training is quite a different matter, and to my (and BALPA's) mind is properly the financial responsibility of the employer - as is appropriate remuneration for the labour you provide.

Scroggs

P.S. Pups That wouldn't be an Icelandic airline by any chance, would it?

[TheFatMan]

Scroggs,

I think it is a Cargo outfit based in Luxemburg, from what I know the Icelandic company does not charge you anything for the TR.

And yes I am with you, I will not pay for a TR!

But I believe to stop this we (the ones without a job) need a lot of help from you (the ones with a job). With the unions help you could stand up and say "we will not accept that our new colleauges will have to pay for their TR".

It is a whole lot more effective if you raise your voice than if we do. And as you said, this will in the end detoriate the whole aviation industry so we need to work togehter here.

TFM

[Flypuppy]

Scroggs,

It isn't an Icelandic company. It is one I am intimately familiar with....

[flaps to 60]

Scroggs

Old chap you have taken me wrongly or i have not stated my position clearly either way I would not support someone who wants to work for free, paid for rating or not.

But i would whole heartedly recommend a type rating and line experience paid for by an individual. You work for the hours you have paid for then move on as in the aforementioned SSTR.

Not good enough, I'm afraid. Just imagine if the same principle was to be exercised at McDonald's, or on the railways, or in the Police Force? People queuing up for jobs without pay? The various employers would be laughing - until the incumbent work forces said 'over our dead bodies!'. Such practises undermine the rights of those already in employment, and will not be accepted by any workforce - the aviation one is no different.

Disagree

This industry is different all the other jobs and most that i can think of pay for your training.

Cadetship excepting (even though your wages are lower for 5 years) we have all paid to get to where we are.

Medicals, PPL's CPL's, Exam Fees, Recurrency Training, Instrument Ratings, Instructor Ratings........Type Ratings we have paid all along the line. So why not pay to get where you want to.

Waiting around for the industry to turn your way, be aware may take some time. Time in which your skills are deminishing, You have taken a few sim rides to keep in touch or appeal to an airline, Your IR has had to be renewed several times, your medicals have to be paid for by you. It all costs so what is wrong with putting yourself at the top of the CV pile.

Once again in state catergoricaly that i do not agree with working for free and i hate FR's approach as well which i luckily escaped by being told no we dont want to employ you.......Thanks DD and MOLLY.

PUDDEN CHIEF (hail to the green one)

Im sorry i didn't reply i was off on my yearly thrashing in the sim for a couple of days and lost the plot for a while. My head is now sort of recovered.

To your points:-

1) I agree but you said it yourself its a commercial organisation and it has a responsility to its employees and its share holders (this bit i have stated on other threads is now the be all and end all of a companies policy and has gone to far as in FR et al). In my mind a company should pay for your TR but like the early 80's people dont like change and the industry is changing regardless of what we think so we have to adapt.

2) If my assumptions are correct the company insures the airframe and the stipulations are that it is crewed by a qualified and current crew with perhaps a minimum experience level for the crew in question. This is why many jobs ask for an ATPL or a 1000hrs of experience etc. As far as i am aware it has nothing to do with how you got your rating.

3) I had looked very seriously in to paying for an eaglejet course on a 737NG with 200hrs line experience. After that i would have been on the open market. As it happens i got lucky and ended up with my company paying for all my conversion costs but i stress it was no more than luck and having a mate on the inside pushing my cause (he's had a few hang overs at my happy expense). Had i not got this job then i reckon i woukld have found the money somewhere to do the 737 course.

4) No i would be having a canary plus they would have to have a very good lawyer as there are laws preventing that. Plus even though i dont like them i have Balpa for what they're worth.

Sorry for the pious comment the last time as it seems to have offended you. It was meant to convey they feeling of why do people say " i refuse to pay for a rating when the airline should be paying for me". We are all responsible for our own actions and how and when we get a job.



where is your line in the sand? At what point do you think “this really isn’t worth it?” Or in simple financial terms, when does the expenditure in ‘buying the ticket’ exceed the eventual rewards?

Im off now to experience my rewards for 4 sectors and i have yet to cross that line in the sand and in purely financial terms i would pay a hell of a lot more than the £65,000 i have already to see what i do every day.

Scroggs

Didnt your airline recently advertise for type rated A340-500/600 chaps is the bearded one not saving money doing this in order to pay for his increase in costs ie fuel and wages etc. It seems its spreading all the way to the top.

[scroggs]

F60, no the aviation industry isn't different to any other, essentially. Actually, there are a quite a few others that pay for their training in the same way we do. However, there is a point beyond which training becomes an employer's responsibility. There is nothing wrong with obtaining a speculative qualification (i.e. the TR with line training) in the hope of improving your job prospects - after all, isn't an Open University MBA much the same thing? There is a lot wrong, on the other hand, with a company employing you and then asking you to pay for the training it needs you to have!

As for Virgin's search for type-rated A340 pilots, that is quite different. Virgin is looking to poach experienced pilots from other airlines. A 747 jock who undertakes an Airbus rating speculatively and then comes to us looking for a job would not save us a lot of money (we'd probably have taken him without the rating anyway!), but an A340 pilot with some seriously significant hours on type and a good deal of other jet experience will save us time and money - and we need people on the line yesterday! However, an inexperienced wannabe who goes and spends 30k on an A340 rating is no more use to us than a chocolate teapot.

Fatman We're trying!

Scroggs

[TheFatMan]

I know you are Scroggs, and we appreciate it!

:ok:

[Flypuppy]

F60,

To answer your answers (if you see what I mean)

1)Yes commercial organisations have responsibilities to their shareholders, and I have a responsibility to my shareholders (the wife and kids). An additional 25k on top of what I have already paid plus working for that additional fee is not something my shareholders are likely to agree to. I'll ask again, why should a private individual financially support a commercial organisation. If someone is paying for a type rating and line time are they employees or customers?

2)My point about hull insurance is more about when someone is paying for line time and comes back to the issue of are you then an employee or customer. It is my understanding that the crews are supposed to be employees of the airline operating the aircraft.

3) n/a

4) Well, as you said above, airlines are commercial organisations and if they can do something much cheaper then they will look at was of doing it cheaper. I have heard that this sort of practice is occuring, although more subtely at some airlines. Where F/O's who are either promoted to Captain or find a job elsewhere are not replaced by paid staff, but by paying customers. Buying 500 hrs of line equates to approx. 1 year's worth of flying at a typical charter outfit.

If not checked, I can easily see a time, not so very far away, when all airlines are going to be passing all the training costs onto pilots, and that could include your next job F60. Everytime you move company or type or do a command course you will have to foot the bill.

If I understand your answer correctly, buying line time is ok, unless it negatively affects you?

[SkidSolo]

Scroggs

I see you are a moderator on this. How many are registered on Pprune?

Would it be possible to conduct a survey on this topic and then from that a petition of some kind to be placed on BALPA's/goverment desk?

Maybe BALPA isn't the right route since there are many registered whom aren't members but it would be one way to attract them!

Seeing the mess BA got into with checkin staff for more pay etc made me wonder what sort of clout we have.

Anyway, just a thought.

Cheers
SS

[itchy kitchin]

I would like to add my voice and just simply say this:

I have spent over 50K on flight training and the banks are leaning on me already to start repayments and i havn't got my first job yet. HOW THE HELL CAN I AFFORD A TYPE RATING???

With the industry now on the upturn (oh yes, the glass is half full) and a lot of the majors hiring, there has to be a "trickle up" effect that can only benefit the little guys like us.

I'm keeping the faith. All good things and all that.

Regards from the kitchin

[Firestorm]

Maybe we should all write to our MPs. I would imagine that they have no idea that this practice exists, it's extent, and the amount of money involved.

How would the general public feel, knowing that they have shelled out for a ticket, and so has the co-pilot?

[air hog]

I'm with kitchen! Couldn't afford a type if I wanted one.

I think the only exception might be a TRSS with BMI Regional for example, but I don't know the ins and outs. That would mean asking my parents to remortgage so would have to be a certainty.

I for one am old and ugly enough (almost 30) not to want to ask for more money for a possible chance. If this is the way it's going I can see me for one having to give up on the airlines. Let's hope it's not.

Cheers

[Shanks]

Where's the line in the sand?

A major regional airline offers you a job but you have to cough up £3000 and accept a reduced salary for a while to pay towards your TR, would you take it?

A top charter airline offers you a job as a second officer, once again reduced salary for first year (just happens to equate to the cost of a TR), would you take it?

A "premier" national airline offers a bunch of low hour students jobs, once again reduced salary which is specifically stated as compensating for the cost of a TR, would you take it?

I know people in all the above circumstances. As far as I can see it's just paying for a type rating in installments. So for those of you unemployed and outraged, put yourselves in the above situations...would you take the job?

[Flypuppy]

Shanks,

All three examples you give above are different to the practices I find troubling.

In all three examples people are working and earning what I would assume to be a reasonable income. They are all employees of the respective companies - and not paying to operate the aircraft.

All those people are paying for a type rating but they have a guaranteed job, and I would assume that once they have paid the company for their training they are NOT bonded to that company.

What I find troubling is the sale of speculative type ratings and line training where people are paying to operate commercial aircraft, where their status as employee is dubious. Buying 500 hours of line time is depriving another pilot of an income for a year.

Let's face if you were running an airline and you thought you could find people to do the work that makes the company money for free, or better yet get them to pay to work :confused: What you going to do? The bean counters must be laughing all the way to the bank.

I can see, and understand, at least 3 sides to this argument, but I feel the ultimate end of the current vogue for paying to "skip the queue" will only come if there is a serious incident involving a paying to work crew member. Only then will the likes of BALPA and the CAA become involved.

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

I do not feel being bonded with your wages is any more reasonable than paying for a type rating outright and also there is no guarantee of a job at the end of any scheme.

Flypuppy, You seem to be implying that people line training but using their own finances is somehow less safe, if that is the case then its nonsense.

Students starting off with their flight training can add a type rating and still save over 20k against the cost of an integrated course. When you look at it like that, you can see how this could become the norm if things don’t improve.

The job market is currently showing an upturn and if paying for a type rating gives students a queue jump in the short term then so be it, that’s what those who can afford it will do. I think it will be interesting to see which major carriers follow the SSTR route. To be honest I'd rather see people who have completed the majority of training off their own back get jobs than those 0 - RHS cadet schemes that used to be common a few years back.

2WINGS
:ok:

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

STUDI
I don’t do envy and even if I did I wouldn’t have anything to be envious about I'm afraid.

This is my personal opinion and I mean no offence to those lucky enough to get a place on these schemes (enjoy New-Zealand guys) but taking on somebody whose never even flown an aircraft when there’s so many qualified pilots without out work hardly helps matters does it? As I already stated, I would like to see the big boys offering some sort of schemes but to whose already holding CPL/IR's.

2WINGS
:ok:

[High Wing Drifter]

2WINGS,

I think that there are arguments both for an against taking on experienced pilots into an ab-initio scheme. The RAF themselves state that pilots with previous flying experience are usually at first well ahead of the thier classmates, and then fallback rapidly after basic training. In a word, there is no real advantage. Given that, it is possible concieve of distinct disadvantages.

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

I agree HWD, but civil flying is less demanding then flying for her majesty so the differences would be less pronounced I would think. So why create more unemployment? Going back to the type rating argument.

If I were boss whom would I take?

Pilot A: Inexperienced (approx 300hrs) but 15-35% is on 737
Or
Pilot B: GA experienced (approx 1500 hrs) but how much is relevant to airline operation
Or
Pilot C: A little experience (approx 500 hrs) but has just passed a type rating (min hours)

I think this is the sort of choices recruitment has to make (ignoring other factors). Who would you employ? Not an easy decision but I would think Pilot B would finish last unfortunately.

2WINGS
:ok:

[StudentInDebt]

2 Wings

If I was an airline recruiter for a regional airline without 737s and the type not mentioned in c) then I would choose b) because he/she is less likely to disappear after 6 months when a better job offer on his/her type comes along. Indeed he will probably be so grateful for a job that he will remain with the company for the duration of his bond and may stick around long enough to be considered for command in which case his decision making skills under pressure from the, usually, single pilot world of GA may well benefit my company.

Why do airlines offer sponsorships when there are so many unemployed pilots out there? Because they want to be able to obtain a workforce that, in all probability, will demonstrate a large degree of loyalty to the sponsoring airline while being contractually and financially obliged to remain in the airlines' employ for a long time (in airline employment terms). They also get to ensure that the training of said future pilots is in keeping with their standards, they can claim back the cost of the training (possibly the full value against profits rather than just the VAT, I'm not an accountant) and they can use the scheme to a certain extent to control their demographics. Such schemes have always only been available to the select, lucky few hence the resentment that built up against them whilst their peers were seeking employment. How much resentment do you think is building inside and outside the airlines against those who pay for the privilige of line training and to a lesser extent a type rating? Why does having the cash to complete a speculative type rating course make someone more deserving of a job than someone who cannot afford it?

If every wannabe with cash stopped undertaking to pay for type ratings tomorrow and made it clear they would only accept a job if the company paid then you would see a massive change in recruitment policy overnight (well maybe Monday, it is a weekend afterall) and funnily enough - if they wanted to survive - they would pay for it. Sadly, there are a sizable minority who are intent on paying and making it difficult for the majority.

[scroggs]

Sponsorships have never provided more than a small proportion of the required supply of new pilots. While the reasons for companies offereing sponsorships are broadly as StudentinDebt has suggested, the UK industry has always relied mainly on self sponsored candidates, or what used to be known as 'hour builders', together with the output from the military.

These days the military is far less of a significant source of new pilots into the UK civil industry. The collective ranks of the RAF, RN and Army release no more than 100 pilots a year into the system, and usually far less. As sponsorships provide an even smaller number (and are unlikely ever to return in a form that the BA ex-cadet would recognise), it follows that the vast majority of new pilots will have completed speculative qualifications off their own bat.

SudentinDebt wrote: If every wannabe with cash stopped undertaking to pay for type ratings tomorrow and made it clear they would only accept a job if the company paid then you would see a massive change in recruitment policy overnight

Sorry, but it's never going to happen. Speculative qualifications are part of the process of obtaining an advantage in all job markets, not just aviation. Just look at the cornucopia of institutions offering MBAs to aspiring executives. In fact, the entire Open University is based on the principle of speculative qualification, as are most Adult Learning Centres and various other educational and vocational establishments. You're just going to have to live with it - in whatever field you choose!

The problem comes when the line between offering employment and offering a service becomes blurred, as Flypuppy suggests. There are a number of companies out there seemingly holding out the carrot of a job in return for paying for a rating and line training, when in fact they have no real intent of offering a job at all. Equally unsavoury is the Ryanair-style practise of 'employing' pilots on slave wages and asking them to pay for their qualifications. That is what we need to drive out of the industry; speculative qualifications are one, and will remain one, of the legitimate (even primary) ways of improving your employment prospects.

Scroggs

[StudentInDebt]

SudentinDebt wrote: If every wannabe with cash stopped undertaking to pay for type ratings tomorrow and made it clear they would only accept a job if the company paid then you would see a massive change in recruitment policy overnight

Sorry, but it's never going to happen. Speculative qualifications are part of the process of obtaining an advantage in all job markets, not just aviation. Just look at the cornucopia of institutions offering MBAs to aspiring executives. In fact, the entire Open University is based on the principle of speculative qualification, as are most Adult Learning Centres and various other educational and vocational establishments. You're just going to have to live with it - in whatever field you choose!

I didn't meant to suggest that it would happen Scroggs. I imagine it would result in the collapse of many airlines! Self-funded type ratings have always played an important role in keeping the "lower" end of aviation going.

Whilst there have been occasions when undertaking a speculative jet SSTR has become "popular" it always remained a small minority and, like now, it was not the magic ticket to a job in the airlines although it undoubtedly helped many of those that did it. 10 years ago the cost of undertaking a jet Type Rating was prohibitive in real terms compared with today - you could buy a decent 2 bedroom house in Exeter for the same cost, today that house is worth twice or even three times as much yet the cost of the course has remained the same. Interests rates are low so the cost of borrowing has reduced and many people have equity in their property that, with the low cost of borrowing, they are happy to release. Salaries are higher than they were 10 years ago even in the regional turboprop world, it was only 7 years or so ago that we had Gill Air demanding payment (over and above the true cost of the course perhaps) for type ratings on the Shed and ATR whilst only paying £14kpa to TP FOs. So we now have a situation where it is more affordable to undertake a speculative type rating but initially there was still resistance in the industry to large scale adoption of the idea; September 11th changed that.

Todays situation is one where, for those looking for their first job, positions are still hard to come by thanks to glut of trained, experienced pilots who flooded the market as airlines went bust around the world. It is natural, given that it is now more affordable, for more people to undertake speculative SSTRs in the hope of "jumping the queue", bypassing the dirty, smelly, noisy end of aviation altogether and getting the jet job that the marketing brochures promise. Unfortuantely, whereas once a speculative SSTR may have guaranteed you an interview, today it does not. Airlines are still looking for type-rated, experienced pilots and the zero-flight time nature of these courses does not bring with it the experience. The numbers of people undertaking speculative type ratings means that once again making your CV stand out from the pile has become more difficult. What has happened is only natural, course providers have found partner airlines who are willing to allow their graduates to gain Line-Training experience (such schemes have existed in the US for many years in the "lower" end of aviation and had a certain "stigma" attached to them in my time over there).

All the increase in the number of SSTRs has done is create a new market in turn for line training as those who have spent the money do not want to see it wasted and can you blame them? The employment situation is desperate out there today and low experience people are prepared to go to great lengths to secure employment, even if it means accepting "slave labour" wages because it is their first job, that they might have to do it again for their second one thanks to their actions does not occur to them.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You are speaking a lot of sense there StudentInDebt.

Studi - the days of big 'national carriers' offering comprehensive cadetship schemes are quite possibly gone forever. Many would view this as a good thing.

Let everyone fund and complete their own basic training then use a professional third party selection company such as CTC run your selection and type rating with the burden of risk resting initially on the candidate.

In this way one excludes the dreamers and 'saw and advert in The Times and applied' brigade. It makes selection professional as well - something that frankly it hasn't been in the past. A couple of HR bozos and an aspiring management pilot in a suit do not a professional selection team make.

Cheers

WWW

[south coast]

i have just read this whole topic from the beginning and it is very interesting to read the different biases.

i could not find a job as a low time pilot in the uk, so ventured to africa and have been flying here for 3 years gaining experience in the contract world.
what i find amazing in the uk is the fact that the pilot who has just completed his/her cpl/ir/me feels it his/her RIGHT to have their first job on a boeing or airbus.
is general aviation, flight instructing or the contract world below them these days.
i think gaining some 'flying experience' outside of 'pushing buttons' would be of great value and if everyone did their 1000 hour apprenticeship on the bottom rung of the ladder then there may not be a need for 200 hour pilots to buy themselves a complex type rating with line experience.

just a thought, and i dont want to sound out of line here, but from a captains point of view, if you took away the qualified f/o who is sitting in the jump seat for the line training, does he consider the 200 hour newly rated pilot capable of dealing with any situation.

i just think back to when i had 200 hours, major failure on a boeing/airbus....? not sure.

[scroggs]

studi I can only speak about the UK system with any authority; I have no depth of knowledge of the systems in Germany or France, or other European countries.

SID Yes, I pretty much go along with you - with one tiny exception. I was offered a 737 TR in 1989/90 (or thereabouts) for about 4.5K. I don't think it was a 'mates' deal, so I can only assume that was the going rate at the time. As I'd just sold a smallish house in South Yorkshire for 100k, I reckon the TR/house price ratio was looking pretty good back then! Of course, this was just before the collapses of Air Europe, Dan Air and the house market, which just goes to show that you can prove anything you like with figures!

south coast the expectations of wannabes in UK are driven by the fact that the UK has a great many jet airlines (probably as many as in all of Africa!), and surprisingly little in the way of commuter and night freight TP operators. The balance is quite different to anywhere else in the world. But your point is apposite; people do need to put some sort of reality check on their dream!

Scroggs

[Flypuppy]

Let everyone fund and complete their own basic training then use a professional third party selection company such as CTC run your selection and type rating with the burden of risk resting initially on the candidate.

That will be the clanking sound of the ladder being pulled up behind you then?

Just remind us again how much you paid for your selection and type rating again www, was it nothing? I am sure with your suggestion then, you won't be fazed when you have to take the burden of risk when you decide it is time to move onto the 777 or even have to pay for your own command course at your current employer.

If you were still on this side of the traing wall I can imagine what your reaction would be to the current situation, and I am pretty certain you would not be advocating that the burden of risk be with the candidate.

I have said it before and I'll say it again, the only pilots who seem comfortable advocating paying for type ratings are those who have never had to pay for theirs.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Flypuppy - I was bonded, the TRSS just makes you get a loan which you pay off with a totally 'extra' £1,000 a month in your pay check. You leave the bank chases you - I can't get excited about the difference. I suppose it is worse that getting chopped in training will end up costing you. But so few do that its not a bid deal in reality. I bemoan the growth of self funded type ratings in general - as you well know.

Studi - indeed lets wait and see if BA do bring back a fully sponsored cadet scheme. 2 years of training an assessment - yeah whatever. A load of school instructors with a vested interest in seeing you pass the course monitored by a changing handful of airline pilots not really wanting to chop anybody. I've seen many airline cadet courses and taught some to fly. They were under a heck of a lot less pressure than the self sponsored guys with no job and an angry looking bank manager.

I'm not envious of airline cadets - some are my best friends and I used to make my living out of them. But they did distort the market.

1) Selection was often poor.

2) They perverted the natural order of progression to a large jet via turboprop, GA or other means.

3) They increased the risk and lessened the prospects of self sponsored pilots.

4) Their eligibility criteria of age, qualification and background were inherently racist, sexist and ageist without good cause.

5) It created some pilots who drifted into the job, had no appreciation of how difficult it is for most to get there and no sympathy at all for those who didn't quite or who ended up in 'lesser' flying jobs.


Naturally the great majority of sponsored folk were great people who went on to make excellent pilots and integrated wonderfully into their airlines demographics.

But the same can be true in the future without the presence of a fully sponsored cadet scheme as we have known it. A fact which I believe and am enthusiastic about.

Cheers

WWW

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

It created some pilots who drifted into the job, had no appreciation of how difficult it is for most to get there and no sympathy at all for those who didn't quite or who ended up in 'lesser' flying jobs.
Well said WWW, I also agree with your other comments.

South coast
You make a fair point and in a perfect world everyone would work his or her way up the ladder. However the majority of GA flying doesn’t pay enough to cover most peoples training debts so its ether the airlines or unrelated work with perhaps a little bit of instructing part time. Also I think it’s a good thing to take someone who has no real preconceptions and mold them to your airlines SOP's and gain their experience from said airlines training department. JAA/EASA are looking into a co-pilots licence for probably this reason and I would say it might have the knock on effect of increasing pay scales for GA pilots (dont hold your breath though!).

2WINGS
:ok:

[redsnail]

www,
You may want to recheck what the TRSS costs.
You don't get extra at all, you're on a lower pay scale and your wage is topped up to near (but not the same) what the non TRSS pilots get.
What eJ pay you doesn't cover the interest that the loan costs. You're left with a short fall of around 2-3,000 pounds. That comes from you.

Sure, it doesn't sound like much but it is a difference.

[High Wing Drifter]

Grrr,

since the learning ability lessens with age.
I keep reading this. What are we talking about here? 29? 34? 46? or 86? Studi, what is your age? I would be very surprised to hear that any confident successful and intelligent person in their 40s or 50s found they found it more difficult to learn new things. I can understand that somebody down in the dumps, fed up with their lot or lacking in confidence because they keep getting berated for being past 35 (old?!?! good grief!) and allegedly over the hill. Even my Granddad at the ripe old age of 76 taught himself Spanish. He is now fluent at 82.

Don't bother quoting scientific studies and experts opinions. If there is one thing that one does learn as one progresses through one's life it is that experts are just as clueless, but with lingo.

Tarra!
HWD.

P.S. You may have detected some emotion there too ;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Reddo - as far as I am aware if you joined ezy under the TRSS with say 1000hrs TT you would earn, conservatively, basic:


£28k yr1 + £6k sector pay

£35.6k yr 2 yr 3 yr 4 + £6k sector pay

£62k Yr 5 +£3k length of service bonus + £10k sector pay

--- end of reduced salary ---

Yr 6 £64k + £6k length of service bonus + £10k sector pay

Yr 10 £64k + £10k length of service bonus + £10k sector pay


In addition under the TRSS you would be paid £4,600 a year to pay off your £23k training loan in 5 years of reduced salary, 5 * 4.6k = £23k

OK - the interest might be on top of that, I accept. :rolleyes:

Nevertheless. Which airline recruiting over the last 2years or present has offered a better deal and how many people have they hired? Compared to ezy's 100+ recruits.

----------

Studi

1) Selection via something akin to CTC with 6 months on line before firm job offer rather outperforms cadet style selection. By a factor of about 50.

2) A view shared by all but cadet entry pilots. Even some of those later lament the rungs they have skipped.

3) The demise of cadets would resolve the poisoness widespread in the business since their inception.

4) Telling someone at 28 or 38 or 48 that they aren't able to cope with a jet type rating course is pure unsubstaniated wilfull nonsense based on guesswork and superstition. And totally unrelated military practice. You'll find numerous problems with race and gender recruitment in past cadet recruitment programs. How many black people read the Sunday Time in the mid 90's when BA were advertising their cadet scheme? Was selection gender normed in X or Y airlines? Nah, not a chance.

5) Hmm, so you say. It takes all types. Most people agree though that a somewhat sustained inate interest in piloting is desireable in someone you chose to pick out of the high street and place in the flightdeck of an airliner. This has not always been the case.


Yes a cadet has less pressure than a self sponsored.

How many cadets WERE chucked off your course? The answer is about 3%. Not something to lose much sleep about. No bank manager. No job worries.

Plus cadets often get extra hours on their course as standard, plus the best instructors, plus program priority, plus the benefit of excellent course mates, plus the motivation of knowing there is a Boeing with their name on it waiting 6 months in the future.

So don't go asking me or anyone else to cry for cadets under pressure.

---------------

There is room and reason for integrated, modular, sponsored, self sponsored and monster raving loonies in the world of aviation.

Cheers

WWW

[steamchicken]

Another worrier is the temptation which must exist - once you start taking money from your employees - to gold plate the cost of the TR. After all, you're selling it so you have a fiduciary duty to your shareholders to maximise profits! I wonder how soon (if not already) we will hear of someone at a school discovering that other TR candidates from the open market have paid less than they have...

[High Wing Drifter]

SC,

fiduciary
Had to look that up. Even word didn\'t know it!

Anyway, to get to the point. I see this is a distinct possibility with Ryanair and their approved TR supplier list. However, the EJ scheme pretty fair to me: If you stay you get the majority of the money back.

[BoraBora007]

WWW - you seem to have a problem with cadets and sponsorships from zero hours.

They are all about QUALITY. Any retard with a rich family can get onto a self-sponsored course. They may not be suited to the job, they may be plain incompetant, yet they will still come out with an fATPL.

So you have a situation where lots of fATPL holders out there, some are good, some are not.

Then you have a bunch of quality talented guys who want to be pilots, but do not have the funds to complete the training integrated and/or are not willing to slave for a decade on subsistence wages building experience.

Then you have quality guys who may be able to secure the money against their parents house or something. But they to are not going to embark on the training because they are afraid of finding themselves unemployed. They are not prepared to take the risk.

The answers to all these problems are cadet scheme, like CTC. They will only allow quality guys on the course and provide them with a fast track to the RHS and a much better way of paying for the training.

The quickest and least risky way into the industry for the cadet and a guaranteed quality pilot for the sponsoring airline. Perfect.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Lets not get sidetracked into the tunnel of oblivion which is cadetships.

Fact is they are are likely not to reapear in the format we last knew them - not in the UK at least.

I think there are some good reasons and good things related to that fact.

Studi - no airline including DHL ever had to ground aircraft because they couldn't find pilots. Not ever.

Cheers

WWW

[Fred4000]

WWW or anyone who knows:


One last question on cadetships.

What is the difference between the current CTC scheme and the old BA,BMI cadet schemes?? Is there any difference apart from the CTC 60k bond which is repaid over 7yrs upon employment??

Cheers

[High Wing Drifter]

@High Wing Drifter: As you seem to doubt the relevance of scientifical expertise, I'm sure you also think that scientifical evidence for fatigue of flight crew is rubbish.
Now now, no need to be silly is there ;)

FWIW I also laughed my little darned socks off at the HPL implication that older people look over their bifocals and ruminate and cogitate on the nature of the emergency before comming to an accurate assessment. Whereas the youngster leaps to an inapporpriate conclusion ending in the deaths of all on board.

[south coast]

studi

i wish i was german too...

[High Wing Drifter]

Studi,

High Wing Drifter, finally a factual statement. Thank you!
You'll see what I mean. Mark my words! :D

Good luck with Lufty :ok:

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

And back on to the subject of Type Ratings....

Then you have a bunch of quality talented guys who want to be pilots, but do not have the funds to complete the training integrated and/or are not willing to slave for a decade on subsistence wages building experience.

Well if their not willing to graft for the money then they obviously don’t want it enough. Aviation doesn’t need these sorts anyway, there are enough people who have saved/acquired funds who are 'quality' and if there were jobs available would be working. As for "rich retards" as it was so eloquently written:rolleyes:. Most of these have shelled out on an overpriced course, which could have paid for 2 type ratings! Also anyone who has qualified for a CPL/IR is hardly a retard! Bora you seem to have a low opinion of fellow pilots especially those who qualified off their own backs. Why is this?

The quickest and least risky way into the industry for the cadet and a guaranteed quality pilot for the sponsoring airline.

The quickest least risky way (for the airlines) is for pilots to pay for their own training and type rating hence why EZY and FR, being low risk airlines, take the majority in this way. Very few new pilots to EZY are supplied by the CTC cadet scheme; most are direct entry and the CTC TR scheme.

2WINGS
:ok:

[skyman68]

woow,

so many answers. thanks to all of you telling me to be patient.I know, I am not very patient, but my patience has his limits.

OK, these last 2 weeks, I have received some answers from companies asking me to come with 1500-2000 hours of heavy jet.

and to make fun of me, and to put me more down, they said: "reapply when you will have these hours"!!!??.

these bunch of idiots have not understant that if nobody hire you, there is no way to build the time they ask for.The usual catch 22.

OHHH!or maybe I should rent a B737 and practice some touch and goe at Heathrow until I get my 1500h??? what an idiot I am!!! how much cost a B737 to rent?

THIS IS RIDICULOUS! AND YES I AM PISSED OF BY THESE PEOPLE WHO MAKE FUN OF US.

Believe me, I do not like to moan on the internet, but they push me to the limit and I want be sure that companies and airlines who read me, know what I think about such "unmoral" practices.

I am building a website where I will post names of airlines who play these little games with us! so watch out! ...

Good luck to all of you, I return to my copy machine for more CV to send and see who is going to be the stupidest airlines of the month.:\

[Bealzebub]

Skyman68,

You are going to hate me for saying this, but you really need to sit down and breath into a paper bag for a while.

Nobody owes you a living anymore than they owe me one. If a company replies to your presumably unsolicited application for employment with a polite reply that you do not meet their requirements which they then specify, and further invite you to re-apply when you do meet them. That is not making fun of you, it is dignifying your application with a reply albeit perhaps a "stock" one. Many companies do specify high requirements with regards to flight hours/experience. That is their right, and it may well be linked to the insurance premiums those companies pay for liability cover.

Without going in depth into the rest of your tirade, you should wake up to the reality that most if not all airlines are looking for calm balanced and mature people to occupy their flight deck positions. Try reading your posts again and ask yourself if you believe you come across as such ?

As for your proposed website, well it might be a good outlet for your apparant rage, but do you really think anyone cares ? You might better spend your time on planning an attack on the job market as it really exists as opposed to how you wish it did, and composing a CV that sells you as a positive asset as they might view you.

[scroggs]

'Wannabe doesn't get flying job because he doesn't have enough hours'

Not exactly a hot news story, is it Skyman? You're one of many thousands. And with your attitude, you'll stay unemployed.

Scroggs

[TRon]

You sound like such a pratt. Maybe this is coming over in your CV.....Sounds to me like they have got it bang on.....

[itchy kitchin]

Skyman,

I can understand your venting spleen.
In the same boat myself!

It is the old paradox of experience vs jobs

but if you're looking for sympathy, you'll find it between shee1t and syphalus in the dictionary.

Look at the Balpa website and sign up for the EOC. Apparently a few low hours types like ourselves were taken on last year directly from the conference.

good luck and stay frosty.

all good things...
regards from the kitchin

[flaps to 60]

Skyman

I can understand your frustration but that last post was not that becomming of an airline pilot or a potential future airline captain. If it was a bad day then that may well be forgivable but if it is your true feelings then think again about this career as you will probably have a heart attack before you get a job.

Come on i waited for well over 5 years for a job and probably have enough PFO's to crush you but i and others i know like me never sank so low. Rise above it and lets put this one down to experience.

A good pilot finds another way in the face adversity to achieve the objective (Sioux City DC10....ie. the right stuff) and you will to if you really want it.

Good luck and i hope happier times are nearby.

[Snigs]

Just back on the subject for a minute before the inevitable thread creep again. I remember, only a few short years ago, when I started PPRuNe-ing (’99 it was) that there was a huge furore about bonding. There were threads galore bemoaning the fact that it wasn’t fair to tie people down in a free market, and that we, the poor old pilots shouldn’t have to suffer the consequences if a better job came along and we had to pay to break the bond!

Many a person (who tended to already have a job) said “don’t join the company if they bond you, there are plenty of those that don’t, the T’s & C’s are good enough to make you want to stay”

Sadly the wannabe pilot workforce capitulated and bonding then became the norm, and guess what, T’s & C’s were eroded…………… It’s a shame we can’t resurrect some of those threads just to see what some of the then Wannabes, now Jet Jockeys had to say on the subject. My guess is that memories are short!

Now what’s happening? Well we’re in the middle of a metaphorical mudslide. Bonding was the first few stones tumbling down the slope, well SSTR’s are the avalanche of mud, trees and any other debris caught up in the landslide. Continue with the madness and the erosion of the T’s and C’s will be irreversible and complete.

When I read one of the numerous posts saying “being a pilot ain’t what it used to be” I feel like screaming “why didn’t you do something about it when you had the chance??”

And I say to those wannabes of today, ”don’t feed the landslide, please”

[Flypuppy]

What a jolly well written post Snigs.

Shame there is no signature line anymore other wise I would make this my signature

And I say to those wannabes of today, ”don’t feed the landslide, please”

[DiverDriver]

Does that apply to MCC requirements as well?

[Flypuppy]

As I have said before the MCC is a perfect example of how things become ingrained in the "system" by companies that make a quick buck out of people's desire to become a pilot.

[DiverDriver]

Ok. Which operators if any DO NOT need an MCC. Then again with my interpersonal skills I might be better suited to single crew IFR, particularly at night so I can take the bag off without scaring anyone.
TTFN DD

[Megaton]

I agree with Snigs but "don't feed the landslide?" How are low-hour abinitios going to get a foot in the door otherwise? Should they refuse any jobs that require a bond or SSTR? I wish it were that easy.

[Snigs]

Flypuppy's point being here (I believe) is that MCC is an integral part of Type Rating Training on a multi crew aircraft, and thus should be supplied at the employers expense.

But, what happened was a few companies did a bit of scaremongering and made money out of gullible wannabes by saying that airlines wouldn't employ you if you didn't have an MCC certificate. What they didn't tell you about is that most companies want an MCC course done which mirrors their own SOP's.

At the very least (and I'm not even happy about saying this) an airline should offer you a job on the condition that you buy an MCC at XYZ company, then it's more of an investment!

[DiverDriver]

Snigs, I can dig the " At the very least....." comment at the end there, however when we read so much about the numbers of CVs passing the Chief Pilots desk, any excuse to bin may be taken and unfortunately if a company stipulates the MCC as part of the minimums you run the risk of being filed under 'bin' before you start. Catch 22 me thinks.

[Snigs]

Yup DriverDriver, sadly utopia doesn't exist :(

Note:In the light of all of the recent whinging, all wannabes will be beaten with a stick until moral improves!!

Now then all ....... don't feed the landslide, please!

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Snigs,
With regard to your comment about Wannabes being beaten with a stick.......Will that be with the company stick or do we have to self sponsor our own!!!:D :D

[Nearly Man]

Snigs, yah but .. who you gonna pick to be the first to stand up and say 'SCHTOP, SCHLOW DOWN, I wont pay for a type rating'?
You paid for an instructors rating, just so you could get more hours than me, didn't you? Plus you didn't buy me a cider in Bristol so may you drive a tractor in 'OO Ar' land forever.
However, you're right in a way, there has to be a stop somewhere.

Pupps, yeh, you frustrated CPL! OK, well, hold up that brothel in Rotterdam and then you'll have the lolly for your IR .. do the condom machine as well and we'll have enough to get you your P..C Aviation 747 rating for ..rgo .ux :)

Scroggs is right too .. I mean, who would have thought being and airline pilot would become so grubby as to having to pay for a cup of tea. Paying through the nose for a rating and then being treated like a ill trained baboon seems to be the way it's going unless people stand up for themselves.
Though they do have golden spoons for their tea on Virgin flightdecks :} I know, cos I have licked them on the upper deck galley!

I'm not against buying a TP rating, say if it's a small outfit, .. what raises an eyebrow on me is bods paying Astreaus for a rating, then 500 hrs line training. Effectively doing themselves and others out of a job .. while flooding the market with low hr 737 rated pilots who couldn't afford the 100 or 500 hr line training

Flaps to 60 .. yep, I'm starting to get my first PFO's, I know how you must have felt .. the best one I've had so far is from Logi bear, badly printed card, wrongly addressed and my name wrongly spelt .. sweet :)

Skyman, at least they're repling to you!:E

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I don't think bonding was something new for the late 90's - it had been an industry fact for decades.

In the early 90's recession plenty of people were paying to go on British Midlands 737 self sponsored type rating course. They are nothing new.

They are more numerous now but then easyJet and Ryanair didn't exist in the early 90's recession and between them now have about 2,500 pilots.

Therefore the ratio of jet jobs available to self rating jet courses available is probably not that different in historical terms.

Just a thought.


WWW

[RPeagram]

What’s the problem. Skyman68 - what are your options. At the moment, in Europe, there are a large amount of self funded type rated pilots with approx. 500 hours, perhaps more after instructing. There are far more without type rating. Therefore, although it's a disgrace, why should any airline pay for your type rating? They don't. Their priority is staying in business and not employing you.

So, consider your options. Either sit back and hold your breath for 5-8 years and see if a pilot shortage arises or can you relocate. I believe, South America and Asia and particularly south east Asia are facing a pilot shortage. How about moving out there for a few years. If your lucky you will land your first RHS and return with 2000-3000hours. Happy days. Then, if you feel homesick, come back and send your very strong and competitive CV out.

Good luck Skyman :)
Life just isn't fair. :hmm:

[Snigs]

Nearly Man, mate, I bought an Instructors rating because I wanted a taste of the glamour, women, and all that moola. You should see all the women go weak at the knees when I saunter up to them, Templar-esk, and whisper "Hi babe, I'm a flying instructor.........."

[Captain Ratpup]

Bet their knees were un-weakened when they saw the flying instructor payslip!

[Arrowhead]

IS SSTR MAKING JOB HUNTING UNFAIR?
No, competition is. Wind back a few years. No EZY/FR, higher fares, higher profits, more willing by airlines to pay for training... but fewer jobs. Now, perversely, we have more jobs available, but lower fares and lower profits/less money. The industry is in a financial crisis, and airlines have to reduce costs just to survive. Which includes everything from fuel bills, to training bills, to coffee(!) bills. Once one airline gets away with making employees/trainees pay for something (eg ATPL, MCC, SSTR, line training, coffee), all the others must follow suit or answer to their shareholders. This suggests that it can only be a matter of time before BA starts SSTRs too - how will that go down?

To see where the future lies, it probably makes sense to look at the US (which has had LCC competition for longer than the UK), rather than look backwards to the UK before LCCs. When you do, you find an industry still in financial crisis, and SSTRs, line training, or pilots spending years in small turboprops (and still paying for ratings) the norm - can any US pilots confirm/deny this? When you see people paying big money to get rated on small turboprops ( http://www.eaglejet.net/FCatalog.asp?Submit=Display ), you realise that the UK job market can still get a lot worse

Its a sad state of affairs, but unless we do away with cheap flights and LCC competition, I cant see how the financial pressures will steady/improve. Perhaps the only answer for wanabees is to pack the bags off to South America, or Asia (if you are not too late already).


SSTR VERSUS INSTRUCTING:

Instructor rating: -£6k
1 year instructor pay (net) +£10k
NET: +£4k, improved job prospects, but may be bonded to recoup cost of TR if get job

SSTR: -£20k
1 year FO pay (net) £25k
NET: +£5k, already in FO job

Okay, this assumes you get a job at the end of an SSTR - topic for debate, I suspect

AGE:
Given many airlines get their FOs to handle the aircraft in an emergency while the captain reasons/act, this mini debate seems false anyway. Perhaps the real issue is ability to act correctly, and in realistic timeframes, under immense stress - which many accident reports show is not related to age at all.

[Nearly Man]

"When you see people paying big money to get rated on small turboprops ( http://www.eaglejet.net/FCatalog.asp?Submit=Display ), you realise that the UK job market can still get a lot worse"

Arrowhead, I think £9K for a Kingair rating and 13.5k + VAT for an ATR rating in the UK is pretty expensive already

Ratpup, nice one :}

Yah Snigs, I know but all your ladiechicks in Somerset smell of manure, have a dead badger hanging out of their pockets and would be impressed by a stick with a ping pong ball stuck on the end :eek:

[Monitorverticalspeed]

This debate has been raging on now for a good year and a half if not more, and will continue to do so.
I bit the bullet nov last year and did it, i sit here now with 500 hours on the NG.

Best risk i ever took..if your gonna do it nows the time ready for the summer season next year ......now where's that lottery ticket?

[Snigs]

You're just generating a two tier training system, one for the have's and one for the have-not's. Eventually the have not's will disappear!

Monitorverticalspeed did you pay for the 500 hours??

[Craggenmore]

I bit the bullet nov last year and did it, i sit here now with 500 hours on the NG
Monitorverticalspeed et al...

will you bite the bullet and pay for each type rating that you do in the future? Perhaps because of your actions, multi fleet airlines might realise that they can charge for this.

Suddenly that kitchen extension gets a bit smaller...

Craggs

[RPeagram]

Even though the kitchen extension will get smaller the fact remains that the situation will become more and more similar to that of the US. It's simple. If you want to be a pilot (self sponsored) you will need 100k spare cash. If not, the other option is a loan which may severely reduce your quality of life. If house prices collapse recent buyers will be in negative equity. That coupled with a loan to be pilot you'll end up homeless. Definitely worthwhile finding out if you have the situational awareness (or brain power) to pass selection tests and interviews before setting off on pilot journey.

Those with money will get the jobs. You need hours. Type ratings will give you 250 more house than fATPL pilots. It's survival of the fittest, those with money will naturally not care about their dignity and pay for a TR. Call it prostituting yourself, who cares, the rich, financial gamblers (the very lucky ones) will end up sitting in a RHS.

The tide has turned. Airline companies know were desperate, supply greatly out numbers demand and, therefore, will never pay for your TR for the foreseeable future. It's, Skyman68, very important that people like yourself still stand up and shout. Although the situation can't be changed it's important to voice discontent. Try a technique like the fox hunters. Storm into a few HQs. See if that works.;)

Alternatively everyone, natural selection differs across the world. If you’re that desperate why try to break into one of the toughest markets in the world. Move, migrate to sunny pastures. You never know you may even be able to see the runway instead of constant cloud cover at 3000feet 365 days a year.:ok:

As for myself I've secured an alternative career if it doesn't work out in teaching. So, for now, I'm off to save some extra money to prostitute myself. I have dignity - honest:E

Regards all,
RP

[Arrowhead]

Monitorverticalspeed

Both 2 people I knew that were 737 rated and unemployed have just gained jobs with Air Asia in Kual Lumpur (literally over the last 3 months). I believe they are still gagging for British trained pilots there, esp those with hours. Go for it!

[Carpathia]

If this airline is "gagging" for pilot, why the hell would you pay for a rating? We're in serious trouble if these goons will still pay for a rating themselves even when a demand appears to exist.

Help save this profession from SSTR's!

[Monitorverticalspeed]

No, i didn't pay for any hours i did the classic rating and then went to work and they paid ME to fly their aircraft and still do, they also paid for my differences course.

If your gonna do it, do it don't um and ar on here by the time you do, it'll be too late!

[skyman68]

the system is not like in the USA, more job for US citizen and cheaper training.

thanks for all your replies, at least i am not alone in this cruel world.

Suppose I pay for my type?, I am now out of the list for Easyjet and Ryanair who ask for NO TYPE RATED PILOTS.

then, I will be at the "same"level(let say in the same s...t!!) with the 2000h jet guys when I will have only 35 hours simulator in my logbook,...and to hear at the end:"come back when you have 1500h jet!!". this is not a good option.

The best option so far is to keep my money for an employer who would be interested by my qualification and MY MONEY of course. but NO JOB =NO MONEY!is that clear? I am fedup of these schools trying to sell us type ratings or guys making us believe that if you pay for a type you can get job.I strongly thinks than some guys on PPRune work for some schools and they get free advertising.

for the guy who mentioned that the grass is greener in Africa(in quebec or whatever he wants), I have tried that and I am not looking to fly for a French bannanerie in the middle of the jungle and be paid peanuts.Yellow fewer, no thanks!

as for the FI idea, I did that already, and not interested to fly on of these old carburator noisy aircrafts.What I want is a real job with a real salary.Thanks to all these schools who have trained me at the standards that no companies want.

I do not know what is going on in this world? But to ask so much money to a 22-35 years old student to buy his own type rating is simply scandalous. I thought England was a country with intelligent people full of "bon sens".it is not, and I lost my faith in the UK system.This country is set on a ripp-off system and I hope the whole system will crash(I say that because I am pissed..!!) one day exactly like France did where 5 or 6 companies have already filed bankrupt so much they were corrupted(btw in France, we are all pissed!!) .

I worry that in 10 years or so, pilots will fly for free after paying their own type and in this case this pilot job will be reserved for only the richest men!I should open a subject like" where do you will be in 10 years?"some guys will reply:"in 10 years, I will pay my boss to flip burgers to feed my kids with the rest of the trash, or i will be a pimp."

I will post again next week.Have a good week folks!

[Frank Furillo]

Ouch,
interesting outlook Skyman, while I do not agree with SSTR I must say that if a Type rating will get me a job then tough. thats life.
I went to the school of hard knocks and if it's the only way to get a foothold in the airline business then that is what i will have to do. Why? well as i am already into £30k for fATPL plus living expenses.
When I started this route I knew i might have to pay for more than a fATPL.
So did you and everybody else who is doing this, you must have unless you had your eyes closed.
Why do you spend so much time moaning, why don't you find somthing better to do?

[FFP]

I must say that I sympathise with the current situation. Probably won't help to say my fATPL will cost about £1700 total. I think the sad fact is that there will always be people who will pay for that type rating and I have no doubt people would be willing to haggle for X months sat in the RHS not getting paid in order to leapfrog over others who would only go for less than X months.

A terrible situation. Look to BALPA . . . . . .. . . . . . . .

[Phileas Fogg]

Not taking sides here, for or against paying for a type rating, but I believe there's a factor to be borne in mind.

I note the majority of the posts here, against, are from UK. I read recently, in another thread, complaints regarding foreigners taking UK jobs.

One should not necessarily regard EU nationals as foreigners, UK citizens have the right to work in their countries and likewise, they have right to work in UK.

Whilst the British may like to make a stand against paying for a T/R there are other nationalities available here, with a different outlook, who will pay and some will subsequently work in UK.

Aviation has been on the 'up' recently but it's not going to stay like that forever. Whilst one may admire the attitude to 'stick to one's guns' until such time as, if ever, the airlines relent but that day may never come and soon you may find 'your' jobs taken by other EU nationals.

[Cabotage Kid]

Phileas,

Brits find it harder to work in the EU because continental employers tend to require sufficient fluency in their mother toungue. As English is such a universal language it is naturally easier for Johnny Foriegner to get work here.

If these crazy requirements, that carriers like Lufty have, persist then it is clearly not a level playing field.

If paying for a TR is generally in line with some kind of bonding arrangements (Like EasyJet) then there are is little to complain about. If we are forced to speculate then it is a ludicrous situation from neither side will gain anything positive.

[Cabotage Kid]

You miss the point by a distance comparable to the gap between
us and the sun.

The UK is a major force in aviation. If you live in Germany, Italy, Spain, etc and speak English you have just multiplied you opportunities. Any suggestions as to what language I should learn this month to increase my opportunities by maybe one of two stuffy employers?

[Phileas Fogg]

Cabotage,
Your point that it's easier for 'them' to work in UK and not so easy vice versa only serves to strengthen the point I was trying to make.

[Cabotage Kid]

I should point out that I'm half German so I have no axe to grind. I'm looking at it objectively not personally.

[Cabotage Kid]

Hi studi,

I respect your view but I think we'll have agree to disagree on the relative weighting of employment opportunities in our respective countries.

BUT: you can find many jobs without learning any foreign language, contrary to me. Foul or not?
Good point and all said and done probably very true!

[Penworth]

I'm not really wanting to get into the whole "foreigners" debate again, which, incidentally, I don't happen to believe there's an issue with - anybody can work anywhere they are entitled to work (which is a government issue, not an airline one). However, Studi, I have to take issue with your assertion that someone who learns German is in exactly the same situation as a german who learns english. Whereas learning the former would open up the few airlines which exist in Germany and the handful of German speaking countries, learning english will open up vast tracts of the aviation world including North America, Africa and Australia.

I think in a way english speakers are a victim of the english language's success. Because it is so commonly spoken, and is probably the foremost language in aviation, there is less of an incentive to learn other languages, and as a result native english speakers tend to be less proficient at picking up other languages. Compare this to, say, someone from Luxembourg, who is unlikely to speak fewer than 3 languages, simply because that is the way things are done there.

I'm in no way defending those who don't bother learning another language to get a job in that country though - that should be a given, just as we'd expect someone coming to the UK to speak english.

Back to the topic though - I'll never pay for a speculative type rating, simply because I can't afford to. It scares me when you hear people saying, I'm £60k in debt, so I've got to gamble another £20k to try and get a job - sounds to me like a lot of people go into this game without any kind of a backup plan :ooh:

Just my thoughts

PW

[Phileas Fogg]

Penworth,
Only half of Africa though, the other half is French. Learning a language doesn't necessarily give the opportunity to work, try working in USA without a green card for instance!

[Cabotage Kid]

Studi,

Most Brits know only know one and a half languages. Nearly all other Europeans know at least two (one of which is English). The moment the average Brit leaves school they cannot realistically (for the most part) work in anything else than a English speaking working environment. Your average European cannot operate in business without the second language so learning English is engrained in the educational system, it is a priority. In Holland half the adverts are in English and the much of the telly is in English.

My original point is that off the blocks the Brits are at a disadvantage. If having to put in the effort to learn a second language after school competes with the amount of time it takes to earn money and learn other useful stuff. That is a disadvantge in comparison to the average EU counterpart.

Nobody's moaning or saying it is unfair...but it is a fact.

Anyway, how about we get back to ranting about type ratings?

[RPeagram]

Just a reminder. Stick to the topic which was posted by Skyman :cool:

[Phileas Fogg]

Yep,
Stick to the topic posted by Skyman, just keep on talking and talking but it ain't gonna get you a job and by the time you finish ranting the jobs won't be there!

[skyman68]

Once again airline write me trying to sell me a type rating with no job !!!go to hell!

[Fastmover321]

What nonsense. If you don't want to pay for a type rating then don't and stop whinging about it. I paid for my own type rating and have decent job so I do not regret it. When I decided to pursue aviation as a career I was fully aware of how tough finding a job was likely to be. Flying as a profession has many attractions (for obvious reasons) and that is why many of the flying schools are full. If you want to pursue another profession (like doctor or lawyer) you will find that this entails yours of debt and education followed by more years of hard work and low pay. A type rating is exactly the same in that it is a professional qualification. Why should pilots be treated differently to other professions especially when there are so many able and willing people who wish to pursue this as their career. At the end of the day it is survival of the fittest and to assume that you are entitled to 'this and that' just because you have a frozen ATPL or whatever is very arrogant. When you do eventually start climbing the ladder you will find it rewarding and all those struggles seem worth it. But everybody has to start somewhere and a more positive attitude is likely to be of some benefit to you.

[Splat]

Fastmover321,

Bang on if you ask me.

I also paid for my own rating and am now gainfully employed building hours in a jet..... Rest assured if I'd not had the rating I'd still be looking for work.

And, to add, almost without exception, most of the pilots I fly with also paid for some rating at some point in the past - go figure.

It's a chance you take, does not work for every one, but then that gamble started when you first paid for first step onto the commercial ladder, and carried on through IR's, MCC etc etc.

Thats all I'll say on the subject.

For the record, I went straight from GA to RHS jet at the not so youthfull 43.

Probably my last post.

Signing off. Safe flying..

Splat.

[haughtney1]

All well and good fast mover & splat...one question though. when you want to move on..fly a different type or mayby do some recurrency training....are you going to pay for that too? its thanks to the likes of you that many of us are now in a position that the companies we are flying for, see this as a legitimate way of cutting costs and generating revenue..thanks for nothing:mad: Now im looking at the thickend of a not too inconsiderable sum for a renewal.

[scroggs]

Fastmover321 wrote:
If you want to pursue another profession (like doctor or lawyer) you will find that this entails yours of debt and education followed by more years of hard work and low pay. A type rating is exactly the same in that it is a professional qualification. Why should pilots be treated differently to other professions

Actually, you're not quite right. It's only partially correct to say that a prospective doctor or lawyer will have to pay for their own basic medical or legal training as does the prospective commercial pilot - but only if the medical or legal student is a mature student, and then it's not cheap. The debts incurred by a medical or legal student who goes straight from school to university are significant, but do not reflect the true costs of their training. Post graduation, however, the NHS or your legal practice is financially responsible for your further training. As a doctor, for instance, you will go through a couple of years as a Junior House Officer learning the basics of various branches of medicine; say general medicine, surgery, obstetrics, and paediatrics, before you decide which will be your speciality. All that is at the NHS's expense - as it should be. Any further training you need, in or out of your speciality, is paid for by the NHS. The legal profession (and most others) works in a similar manner.

Post-graduate specialist professional training is accepted in most professions as properly the employer's responsibilty. I can just about accept the premise that a speculative purchase of a type rating is a legitimate, if undesirable, way of impoving your employability, but I cannot accept the idea, now becoming general, that you should be expected to pay for training after you have been contracted to a company. I do not, however, regard lower pay for new pilots as unreasonable.

You chose to buy a rating, as is your privilege, and it worked for you. Unfortunately, the more people do this, the more companies will expect their raw recruits to come with, or to pay for, a type rating. It's difficult to know how to stop it, but it can't be seen as a good thing by anyone except airline accountants.

Scroggs

[Bableton]

This business is the best in the world. I fly the Airbus and couldn't think of anything better to do for a living.

I spent several years bitching about why other guys got jobs when I wasn’t able regardless of the fact that some had less experience.

This is a competitive industry; everyone wants the few jobs available. I decided to put my money where my mouth was and paid 23k for an A320 TR in 2001 just before Sept 11th.

2 Years later I got my first A320 Job through an agency.

I'm now with the UK’s largest A320 operator and my investment has been paid back 5 times over already.

My message is simple, you must have the edge in this business so find out what that is and get it. (Do you really want it bad enough?)

There are lots of rip off companies selling Type Ratings be careful, only use reputable companies such as GeCat in Gatwick.

Its almost impossible to get a commitment from a company before you start unless your part of a self sponsored scheme. This is because when companies need pilots they can't wait 6-8 weeks on the chance that you will pass with flying colours. Get the TR then apply. No experience means a crap contract abroad on low pay but thats when you'll get your hours and pretty soon you will be telling them what you want if they need experienced FO's.

Anyway, it worked for me. Took years and lots of worry, cash and sacrifice but I’m there now and wouldn't change it for the world.

On another note, I've done the following interviews over the years;

Brymon / BRAL / GB Airways / Bmed / Citiexpress / MyTravel / BA mainline / EasyJet as well as sim rides for contract work.

My advice;

BE YOURSELF! Don’t bull****, get as much info about the interview and practice your basic flying skills like hell before the SIM.
If your asked a tech question on type and you dont know, just say where the info is in the FCOM and that will do fine. Keep your cool at all times.

By the way, I got 4 of the above jobs and turned down 2 because there terms and pay were crap.

[Joe_Bar]

Bableton

How did you keep the rating current during the 2 years before you got a contract.

Cheers Joe

[superman_32]

hahahahahahaha........what a frigging joke guys....

it is and always will be a catch 22 situation.

....get us a flying license.......
....oh, have you done an approved course of training?....
....do a type rating and then apply.........
..... oh, have you got 500 hrs on type?......
......oh good you have the type rating you have done an approved course AND you got all the licenses....NOW...how old are you?

and it goes on and on and on and on......


it is simple...STOP!!!!

and for those who were able to get the type-rating consider those who have not even got a quid to buy themselves a macdonalds!!!..so if you had the money others dont have it and yet they are very motivated and professional.

[TRon]

superman/skyman

You have now gone and started two other threads spouting the same crap.

I suggest you do us all a favour and stop banging on about this. Everyone knows it, YOU took the risk in gaining a licence.

[superman_32]

I SHALL STOP NOW AND ALL OF YOU HAVE YOURSELFS A GOOD DAY NOW.

BYE BYE ALL........


GOOD LUCK WITH GETTING JOBS IN AIRLINES.....

[Bableton]

I can understand why this guy is so angry. Unfortunately and I’m sorry for you, with that attitude you might not make it.

I said above (Do you want it bad enough?) Those who do will get it in the end.

Besides, for the best job in the world, do you expect it on a plate? No one is going to give it to you. It’s down to you to get the ticks in box's and then the job.

Someone asked how I kept my rating current in the two years I waited for a job. The fact is I didn't!

When I was offered a job with Volare Airlines in Italy through a UK agency it was on the basis that I was current. So 6 weeks before I started, I paid another 5k to renew my A320 LPC or (IR) if you like.

When I went to Italy I was put into a SIM for a company OPC/LPC check ride without any training. I just scrapped through because of my recent training. My line training of just 10 sectors was the hardest learning curve of my life and I almost through in the towel. However after a few weeks I was ahead of the game and the enjoyment became outstanding.

There were a few guys in Italy that hadn't flown the A320 for 10 months and one Swedish guy (A good, decent, friendly guy. One of the lads really.) Was sent packing because his SIM was poor. I'm not surprised since he hadn’t flown for 10 months. If they had given him a few hours training he would have been fine. Unfortunately like I said before, its competitive the Airlines don't have time for training in some cases and rely on you being the best out there! So the ball is in your court.

The guy complaining on this forum would probably be the guy sent home I’m sorry to say. The sad thing is that he probably enjoys flying as much as me or anyone else but this is a small industry of very clever, skilled individuals and a limited number of jobs.

[skyman68]

bableton,

send us some money to keep current. Maybe you are rich, I am not!

some people have to work hard to stay current, and when banks are runing after you, you save your money for what it is more important .pay your debt (and your food)

I could buy a t/r on the A320, B737,... but how I am going to pay that???

seriously, you make me laugh!

[Phileas Fogg]

Skyman,
I happen to know Bableton. He was A320 low houred from a couple of years previously, had been flying small props but wanted back into jets.

Before spending his money last year he couldn't get an A320 job despite previous efforts. Since spending that money the airlines have been, what seems like, chasing him and he's had the privelidged position of turning job offers away.

Skyman, the aviation industry does not owe you a job, like any profession you have to apply and the airlines are likely to take the most suitably qualified applicant(s) and if that includes paying 5k for recurrent training, or indeed paying for a full type-rating, then that's life i'm afraid!

Of course, had Bableton not found 5k he'd still be on those small props which, from the sound of it, you're going to be retiring on.

[skyman68]

I did not say that the industry owns us a job, I said it is damn hard to get a job in this field, and that wanabes should be ready to spend a fortune with a risk of no return for years.Even look for another job.

Be a pilot is not my first degree, but I do not appreciate the way the industry treats us so badly. like superman 32 said: it must stop!

[Bableton]

Wow, This is a sore subject.

I'm sorry that you can't get the cash Skyman. I spent 10 years robbing my small business to scrape my pennies together. Sorry but there are several instructors I know, working hard for bugger all that I'd give the money to before I'd throw it your way. Like I said before if you want it bad enough you'll get it. I do realise that its not possible for everyone and I guess that’s part of the filtering down process, not everybody makes it.

I did my ATPL's at 30 Years Old so I had to throw loads of Cash at it! I f your young enough then just chill for a few years, you might get a brake. If my advise is worth anything then be positive because believe me the frustration can take over your life.

I have recently heard that Flybe have taken a few low hour piston guys. A mate of mine from HACS has just started. Good luck to you Joe!

On another Note, How do you Know Me Phileas Fogg?

[Phileas Fogg]

Bableton,
Check your PM's.

[and rotate]

Everyone,

Only rich people should be allowed to fly a plane!!!! its a superiority kind of thing. If you've got it, flaunt it. And also dont touch what you cant afford, its quite simple.

Dont forget to rotate

[skyman68]

so, what should I do. look for some money to pay my own type???and where??? and who will employ me?

after the MCC, now we must pay again for a type.
when I am going to make some money?

[Phileas Fogg]

I will NOT pay for a T/R

Skyman,
Why not be honest and rename this thread ' I CAN NOT pay for a T/R'?

[Busbar]

I would like to drive a Porsche 911, but guess what, I don't!! Why? Because I can't afford one, and I don't go telling the world how p!ssed off I am about it!

We all have our own views on self-funded type ratings with airlines making us pay, and whether it is right or wrong, it is fact so live with it!

I was offered a job with a big airline on a big shiny jet with very low hours. The catch? I had to pay for my rating!!!! At the time nobody else was banging my door down screaming "please come and fly for us" so I was left with little choice. And do you know what? It was a worthwhile investment because my career was furthered no end and now I get paid well, do a job I love and find interesting, and as it happens I do fly with beautiful women to!! :D :ok: Now every job has its faults but I never got into this game without knowing the facts first! Skyman, I am sure you were well aware of how much it was going to cost before you started, and how it is not easy getting a job.

I don't know about you but I was certain from the start that it was going to be a long hard road, and I was also sure I would not become a millionaire flying for an airline. Had I wanted that, I would have invested my money elsewhere!

I sympathise with your situation, but trying to discourage everybody else and ranting to the world how crap it all is will not make it any better. Instead, spend your time on your PC writing letters and CV's, it may be more productive!

Regards

[skyman68]

oh please busbar, do not be a simple mind.
most of us can not even fly small planes and make money.
at least with my driver license, I can drive a car...maybe not a Porshe, ...
with my CAA license I can not even find a job...why the CAA gives license if there are no job at the end???

...."WHAT? NO JOB, NOWAY DUDE!, LOOK ! I KNOW A GUY WHO GET A JOB WITH ...."

yea, yea, yea....!!! in your dreams boy!!!

[haughtney1]

I cant afford a type-rating.....drat poo..and double poo, but the good news is..Ive got a job, ok its turbo-props, but where I come from turbo-props havent even arrived yet. To all those who can afford..scrape..beg..steal..borrow the money...its a free country.

What about the bigger picture however?......what happens when you tire of your shiney 737..A320 etc...and want to move onto something a bit bigger? are you going to stump the cash to move up the next level?...mayby another 20-30k for that next big shiney jet?....and what about line checks..recurrency etc.....remember what you chaps have done is set a presedent(ok I cant spell it:hmm: )...but what happens then? are you going to pay for that too?
And Phileas do you honestly believe that the accountants...finance companies..or CEO's wont see the opportunity to generate savings this way as well?

I only say this as I have yet to have a self sponsered person come on here answer these questions in any coherent sense....I suspect that the majority of SSTR come down to plain old greed. Greed in the sense of not wanting to graft (ok yes Im sure you may have grafted for the cash..im not disputing that)..but more in a sense of learning your profession..growing as an aviator..climbing the pyramid and more than anything else....gaining experience, an aprentiship(more bad spelling) if you will.
In the end everyone will lose out......those of you flying about in your shiney jets servicing your debts.....remember that you are really just pushing forward the thin end of the wedge.
As for me.....I was bonded for a set period..was happy to do so..as this was a measure of my self-worth, and a fair and equitable result.
SSTR's are ruining the industry...they have not..and will not in my opinion be nothing more than a shortcut for those who have the financial strength to ride roughshot over their peers.

Finally and unlike Skyman......I dont have any axe to grind, I recognise that many people are desperate for that first job..but we have to be realistic, pragmatic and dedicated. To busbar this comment is directed at you...simply throwing money at the problem is not the answer it never has been..and never will be.



Cheers


H:ok:

[Old King Coal]

skyman68 - without wishing to appear xenophobic.... what with your whinging "the world owes me a living" and "it ain't fair" naive attitude, one suspects you're either from Belgium, or Swiss - so which is is it ?

Veritably it's all as per the saying, i.e. 'sh1t happens !'... it just happens to be happening to you ( along with many hundreds of others too ). Yep, it's just a shame you weren't smart enough to realise the risks of what your were getting into, i.e. aviation wise, before you spent the money, eh ?!

Aside - might I add my appologies to all the hard working realists from the two afformentioned countries. :O

[Pilot Pete]

why the CAA gives license if there are no job at the end Because they are a licencing authority, not a job agency. You (rather naively) sat your exams and passed your flying tests and handed over your licence application and logbooks with your cheque. In return, they kept their side of the bargain and gave you a licence. I don't recall there being any intimation of possible employment from the CAA when I 'bought' my blue book........:rolleyes:

As for not be a simple mind perhaps one should look at one's self before ranting at others. You have not listened to anything that anyone has said to you in this post and are convinced that;

1. There are no jobs flying aeroplanes in the UK
2. There certainly are no jobs where they will employ you without a type rating.
3. Everyone who says they know someone who has been employed recently is a liar.
4. The industry is treating you badly.

You swing from berating everyone to playing the wounded puppy and even say Believe me, I do not like to moan on the internet

Well, to be honest, the impression you give on here is one of someone totally unsuited to the job you claim to want to have. Perhaps your tainted view allows you to justify your failure........

Good luck, which of course comes to those who seek it out.

PP

[haughtney1]

Well said Pete...............(god I hate earlys I can never sleep..now im posting on here again!!!)

Im interested if anyone wants to pick up on any of the points Ive raised....we are all having a go at skyman (and rightly so) but have we here lost sight of the fact that SSTR's could well be the ruination of our industry.. our t's & C's..not to mention prospects for future employment?...again just a thought..anyone wanting to mount a sound. coherent, and reasoned argument against this..?

H

[Maxiumus]

Haughtney1

I suspect you won't get a coherent answer about SSTR's. Unless someone who has done one wants to chorently explain why they want to contribute towards towards lowering the T's & C's bar for everyone (including themselves). As you said in previous post but one, and rather coherently too I might add, these idiots don't seem to realise that once one starts funding initial ratings it's a slippery slope and that the better job they seem see as the Holy Grail, post selling the soul to O'Leary et al, will probably not materialise due to their actions.

[Bableton]

Buying a Type Rating is about one thing. Selling a product, and that product is you.

There are probably 100 Guys qualified for every Airline Job available and in order to market yourself in a way that puts you ahead of the other 99 then a type rating is a bloody good idea.

When I placed a £5k advert in yellow pages for my business I didn't stop to think about the other business's not getting work because they couldn't afford an advert like mine. I certainly didn't think I was affecting the industry.

When I paid £23k for my Airbus rating, it was a calculated risk that I was prepared to take. It paid off for me and I would not encourage people to take a loan for this purpose but if you are in a position to make yourself a more attractive proposition for an Airline by having their type on your licence then I say go ahead and don't feel guilty about the others because in this industry you have to look after yourself and your family.

If this is your dream job then go get it, whatever way you can!!!

There are too many people commenting on this subject who were lucky enough to get jobs with low hours, think about how you would feel if you only ever wanted to fly for a living, you have a Frozen ATPL but after several years you still haven’t got a job. Its time to make a decision, Give up the dream or Gamble on a better life. It’s a nasty situation but we are all adults and life is about risks.