Flight training in the USA - its decision time!

[J1mbo]

Hey,

I just wanted to get some of your opinions on the route i think i'm gonna choose. If i pass my medical on thurs im planning on visiting the schools and starting at the end of October.

Im planning on heading out to Florida to Phoenix East Aviation, Daytona Beach and doing an ab-initio course there and working as a flight instructor for a bit there. By the end of it, hopefully, i should end up with a FAA frozen ATP and about 1000 hours. I reckon this'll take about 18 months. Whilst i'm working as a flight instructor i'm gonna start doing a distance learning CAA ATPL course, and hopefully take the exams in Orlando before heading back to the UK. Once back in the UK i reckon about 3 months and £10,000 to convert to CAA frozen ATPL. Thats the plan at the moment anyway!

What do you reckon? Does this sound like a good route to take? In particular, i've ruled out a lot of places as they dont have the option of the flight instructor work.....do u think that these extra hours would be valuable? There's gotta be more chance of a job with them, right? Or would u just get the training over and done with and start job hunting staright away?

Also, ive chosen against doing the JAA approved courses in the States, partly because of no flight instructor work, partly the location of the school, also because im under the impression that they're less preferred by the industry than doing the conversion in the UK. One more thing, i'm right in assuming that those converting to CAA from FAA are seen just as highly as those who have studied at one of the well known British schools, right?

Any suggestions and help appreciated because its getting pretty close to having to shell out loads of cash! Thanks.

[captmav]

Hi J1mbo,

I know absolutely nothing about the school you intend to go to. BUT just a quick word of warning..

I can promise you that if you are instructing in Florida in the heat of the summer, the very LAST thing you're going to want to do in the evening is study an intense DL course. I don't care how dedicated you are, sitting in a C152 when there is a heat index of nearly 40 C is painful..!!!Believe me during the summer it's no fun at all.

If I was to go down the instructing (hours building) thing in the US, then i would either go somewhere out of Florida (bit cooler), or enrol at somewhere like Delta in Sandford that do the JAA side of things before the FAA.

Whatever you choose the very best of luck to you,

Captmav.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I think it is a poor idea.

Doing the entire FAA then nearly entire JAA ATPL route is labourious and time consuming. It gives you no greater chance of an airline job as they are not exactly doling out the green cards in the North American colonies right now.

Instructing in Florida is going to be reasonably unpleasant at the bottom of the food chain. I do not believe you will save much money over the £45k required to complete a modular CPL/IR Frzn ATPL course in the UK. All based from day one from the same airfield, with the same school in the same airspace with possibly the same instructor. A much better way to ensure a confident first time pass on your significant flight tests.

Too many people simply read the magazine adverts promising cheap (FAA) ATPL's and believe conversion is easy and cheap - it isn't. Elsewise all those thousands of experienced unemployed American pilots would be over here for a start..

I think you need to do a whole heap more research my friend.

Cheers

WWW

[Sensible]

Sorry to throw a bucket of cold water over your hopes and aspirations too but:

a) I cannot help but feel cautious about ANY school that makes guarantees of flight instructor work. At your stage they cannot even guess whether you will be suitable as a flight instructor.

b) There are work permit and visa issues. Is Phoenix authorised by the Immigration Service to issue training visas? If you are not a US citizen then you are an alien, you have no rights to work in the USA.

c) I cannot speak of Phoenix having no knowledge of them whatsoever but if you get into a scrum with a bunch of other hopeful wannabee instructors, the whole lot of you will starve. The way it works in some places is that you are not guaranteed any pay; you just get a rate per hour (not much at all) for actually flying. If there are no or not enough students to go around, you starve - plain and simple! Many instructors in the US have bumper stickers "I fly for food" It's meant to be funny but it's a fact! Sorry but I cannot help but feel convinced that you have fallen for a sales pitch- guaranteed work as an instructor if you spend your money here! How many times a week does that one get recited I wonder? There is no guaranteed living to be made as a flight instructor in Florida. If you are going out at the end of October then you will have missed the hot part of the year. Sitting in a cockpit in the heat and humidity of Florida needs to be experienced to be believed!

d) It strikes me as a very bad idea to do the FAA exams and then the JAA ones, it isn't as simple as night following day. Personally, I'm very much pro USA for training but for heavens sake do it JAA from the start. It is just too complicated and time consuming to convert. Why not just do your JAA PPL in the USA first. Get a feel of things and talk to a few instructors.

Fulfilling your dream is not going to be easy. Your plan seems too easy. You need to be very careful, tie up all the loose ends and get that guarantee of work in writing because there are lots of us who want to see that guarantee!

Good luck, be careful!

[JadedFlyGuy]

Hi J1mbo

Trust me on this. Phoenix looks great on the website, but the ground reality is a little different. I guess all flight schools worldwide are the same. Well, I did my training at Phoenix East. Heres the deal with the instructing:

Yeah, they tell you that you get to be hired back as an instructor, blah blah..Whatever!!

Fact No. 1: If you are not a US Citizen, or a Green Card holder, you need to be on a J-1 visa. Make sure this is what youre getting on your IAP 66 form. This J-1 is good for 2 years. You have GOT TO make sure that you finish your commercial, as well as your CFI (certificated flight instructor) course before that! Now, lemme tell you, with Florida weather being what it is over summer, thunderstorms, hurricanes, fires... Additionally, scheduling is a PAIN in the behind!

Fact No. 2. Having a CFI is not enough at PEA. You will need to do your CFII at the very least. CFII-Certificated Flight instructor Instrument) before they even consider you. Once youre in, you get paid 8 bucks an hr, starting off, but thats only if you fly. If you go through a whole day, with all your flights being weathered, and students cancelling on you, well buddy, you dont make a penny.

Fact No. 3 If you get an M-1 visa, and you get your CFI, CFII, whatevery, yeah, they'll probably hire you, but guess what?? They won't pay you jack! YOu work for free (they call it the ATP course) which means you pay $5,000 (if i remember correctly) to sign up for the course, and you instruct for free till you hit your 1500 hours.

Fact No. 4. The FAA does NOT have a frozen ATP system. You need to be 21 to take the checkride, and 23 to be issued the ATP certificate. YOu STILL need to have 1500 hrs total time, (and all the x country time) by the time you take your checkride. There is NO WAY around that.

Yes conversion is a pain in the behind, because the FAA system when it comes to ground studies is VERY different from the JAA system. I prefer the FAAs practical approach, but it didnt help me when I needed to convert my license.

If theres anything more that you need to know about PEA, lemme know. Cheers Buddy!

P.S Im not trying to bad mouth Phoenix. All I want to say is that MOST flight schools are the same way. Phoenix is still better than a lot of others out there. Oh one last word. Dont let them scam you into the B-727 course or the King Air Course! Its the BIGGEST scam out there!

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

At present, I'm in the States doing what J1mbo intends to do. However, I had the patience to get my PPL and do the JAA ATPL written exams before I went to the States. Going the FAA route and then converting does have its fair share of problems. There is no way I would even consider trying to do the JAA ATPL exams while working as an instructor. The FAA also requires theoretical training that is quite different to the JAA but can still be pretty time consuming. As for costs, I don't think you will save a great deal over a JAA modular course in the UK.

On the up side, some of the posts have overstated the problems in gaining employment in the States. If you have a J-1 visa you can work as an instructor and if you are desperate, marriage will get you a green card. The regional airlines are hiring fast at the moment which means plenty of instructor jobs popping up. Working as instructor will allow you to build your experience much quicker than you would in Britain. You'll also be able to teach IR/CPL/ME students, not possible as a new instructor under JAA.

Overall, if you train under the FAA system first you should be able to get yourself to an emplolyable level, far faster than you would in the UK. By employable, I mean 1000hrs and 100hrs multi. The FAA practicle style combined with the high level JAA theory should make you a good pilot in the long run. Do the PPL and ATPL theory before you jump in boots and all though. Ignore that advice and I can guarantee you trouble and strife!

[mike halls]

Hi guys,

Very interesting post's by all,
I would seriously look at all schools
before I would pay that much money.

safe flying all

mike

[IRISHPILOT]

Hi there. Very interesting post.

Just a small add on from me: If you do gown the JAR route trom the beginning, I'd suggest, at least to do the PPL the FAA way, this will help you in several ways:

1. It's cheaper
2. It's quicker as the ground school is shorter
3. It includes night privileges, so no need for an extra night rating
4. It will never ever expire
5. It allows you to log more PIC time than the JAR equivalent
6. You'll loose the JAR PPL as soon as you get the JAP CPL, but the FAA one is a keper.
7. Did I mention that it's cheaper?

regards, IP

[MystiCKal]

J1mbo - look at PM

[J1mbo]

Thank you all for your replies, much appreciated. They're not what i wanted to hear, but very helpful nonetheless. I think you've managed to convince me to go the JAA route in the states, it seems much quicker and cheaper. Phoenix East is definately seeming like a less attractive option.

So, it looks like scrap that plan and on to the next! How does doing the joint JAA and FAA Career Pilot programme at Naples Air Centre sound???? I was looking at EFT in Ft Pierce but you have to do the ATPL exams by distance learning, so not too keen on that one, although you can do the flight instructor thing there.

Once again thanks and any more suggestins appreciated!

[razzele]

my opinion is..

1- get ur FAA PPL and ur Atpl under a m1 visa at the same time.(8months)

2-get onto an american school that can write u a J-1 visa get onto their course...instruct and convert ..will cost u about the same as modular in the UK overall but u come out with more hours. that ll give u a maximum time on ur work visa.


cheers


r

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Why oh why don't you just go to Stapleford (or similar) around the corner and do a JAA PPL then CPL IR Modular course and do your ATPL distance learning with someone like Bristol Groundschool?

No visas, no transatlantic travel, no conversions, no accomodation costs, continuity of training, continuity of course mates, flexibility of training schedule, networking opportunities - the list is long. Total cost need not exceed £46k ish.

Just how much do you expect to save by going to the US? If its a burning ambition then go there for 3 weeks to do your post PPL hours building or something.

The UK CAA Instrument Rating Test is by far your biggest hurdle. Be sure that all your training is assisting you wherever possible in passing it. The easiest way to achieve this is to fly at one school with one set of instructors on one fleet of aircraft in one local flying area with everyone knowing you are going all the way with your training from day one.

I've taught people to pass UK CAA PPL, CPL and IR flightests...

Cheers

WWW

[Ninety-Nines]

I am sorry WWW, although it is rare I have to disagree with you on this one!

I have been on both sides of the fence being British and now currently run a JAA approved flight school in the US. If I had a penny for the amount of JAA PPL's or higher that end up completing in the US I would now be on an Island somewhere with no PPrune access;)

For some I agree, the UK is the answer, but for those whose time is money or want to get on the career path fast, the US is the way to go. Just this week I have had three students contact me; one cannot get the flying in for his CPL - planes are full and with the weather, he has lost 5 out of the last 7 slots. Another 2 are PPL's that cannot get complete due to a mixture of weather, slots and personal commitments.

When students arrive here, it is a one way street; no outside influences, just the job in hand, day in day out, living and breathing aviation. PPL's complete in 3-4 weeks, CPL's 10-14 days etc. not to mention the cost savings with the price of aircraft hire.

I am not saying one route is better than the other, just that there are most definitely two different routes and that it depends on the individual, budget and time scale. I would suggest to all potential students to look at their individual pros and cons from both sides of the pond.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I used to teach PPL courses at Welshpool in Mid Wales and turned out several complete PPL's in under 4 weeks in the summer on 1999. There are numerous schools in the UK that can do that for you if its a priority. The weather factor in Florida ain't so much better than the UK for significant chunks of the year.

Nevertheless it is a cost saving measure to gain your PPL there and/or to do your hours building there. Many have done and will continue to do so.

My main contention was that doing a FAA CPL/IR ATPL and then trying to convert to the JAA version was long winded, expensive, hassle and ultimately not worth it.

I stand by that.

I also had the great displeasure of checking out several people returning from the USA now wanting to hire club aircraft. Sure its anecdotal but these poor people had no idea of the lost procedure, flew non standard 'patterns' instead of circuits, could not obtain a RIS or perform a zone/matz transit, had not flown in mildly adverse weather, had never used a grass runway nor a runway short than 5,000ft, couldn't read or decode CAA 1:50,000 maps and had no idea of VFR minimas or UK airspace rules.

With the best will in the world they needed 3 or 4 hours in the aircraft and the same in long briefings. Thus negating any cost saving by going 4,000 miles away for basic training.

Like anything else there are pros and cons. I merely discuss them here so that Wannabes have heard both sides of the debate - I'm a bit passed PPL's by this point and don't run a school nor instruct any more...

Cheers

WWW

[BillieBob]

.... and now currently run a JAA approved flight school in the US. An entirely unbiased view of the 'benefits' of training in the US, then.

[captmav]

I would have to agree with WWW on this one.

I taught FAA/JAA in Florida for 2 yrs. Whilst i agree that you can blast through a PPL in 3-4 weeks, the courses are so intense that the students don't have time to commit a huge amount of the information to long term memory. It's not through bad instruction or lack of aptitude on the students part, it's just the way it is.

I have to admit that on returning to the UK I had slipped into numerous 'American'isms'. I found the European R/T very long winded and the procedures over complicated (that's after flying in the UK for 8yrs BEFORE I went to the US..!).

This is why I advise people to go to the US 'ONLY' for a PPL and hour building. It really screws with your head to come back and expect to blitz through a JAA CPL/IR (especially IR) if you have no experience of UK R/T.

So if anyone out there feels they're being ripped off by a club or school that wants 4 hrs of flying before they're let loose in the UK, well sorry but if the instructor is not confortable with your abilities then it's a case of biting the bullet I'm afraid.

Stay safe folks, that's what it's all about,

Captmav

[Ninety-Nines]

WWW

Agree with you on that side. There are advantages to both FAA and JAA systems, but it depends where you will be flying mostly.

As a JAA school, we choose to take the best of the JAA and teach that to the FAA as well as vice versa. I think if a student merely trains for a FAA PPL, he will have some time to complete on his return to become familiar with the area whether he requires it or not. We normally recommend as soon as possible visiting their local school/club and receiving approx 3-5 hours familiarization with them. As anyone knows, you may be able to fly with your eyes closed, but if you are not familiar with the area......

As for the JAA CPL, I would suggest to everyone to get the JAA ATPL exams out of the way as quickly as possible. I have a number of Instructors that train at a very reputable school in the US, gain their FAA CFI, instruct for two years and then complete the JAA ATPL exams; I think the thought of completing these beloved exams gets more daunting as the time goes on- better to get it all over with when you are completing all the training. If you then want to instruct, it is far easier to convert to the FAA system!

[TKPILOT]

Ok!!! i have to drop a quick note to. It sure sounds like none of the guy's that are talking NEGATIVE about the states know what they are talking about.
Im from Europe but lives in the states where im flying right now.
Never done anything better as this is the VERY best way to learn.
The weather is great(moste of the time) so you learn A-LOT, Very Quick.
Why wasting time because of crap weather in UK where you over and over have to cancel your training because the clouds are too low.
NO here is what i have found the best way of getting your JAA ATPL.

1) Get to the states and do you FAA, PPL, IR, CPL, Multi and Maby CFI.

that's gonna give you about 250 hours MORE then in UK.
Then people are crying and say, BUT THE CONDITIONS ARE NOT AT ALL THE SAME>>>>>>THE WEATHER IS NEVER BAD..
What a BUll.....When the weather is s... in europe no one is flying there.

The best thing is that it is A-LOT cheaper.
The FAA Package starts from around 18000US$ and gives you all your american licence...Remember you can use these licence other places then in the states.
If you later on are looking for a job i asia/africa and some places in the eastern europe the easyst licence to convert is the FAA.
But ok you just spend 18000US$ Now its time for yor ATPL Studies. This can be done many places and starts from about 2500Pounds. It is A-Lot easyer to pass when you have the bagground knowledge from your FAA IR/CPL Alot of the ATPL do not make any sence before you actually are flying. so by already ben through alot of training helps A-LOT
When that is done and over with you just need a conversion of your FAA CPL MULTI/IR and you are done.
AND no it is true that no school gives you a 100% Instructor job in the states but now one does that in Europe either...But i KNOW that the changes are 100% bigger to get one in the states. i know of JAA schools in the states that are in HUGE need og instructors so dont wory you will get a job EASY.
Try to check out this webpage
www.aviationpilots.com
The got most of the schools in the state and you will find som good info there, plus ATPL questions so you have a chance to take a look at what to expect.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If your aim is to become an airline pilot in Europe then you will need a JAA license. An FAA one is no use to you either as you have no right to live and work in North America. Yes you may be able to go and find work in Africa using your FAA license but given that there are thousands of FAA pilots each with thousands of hours ALREADY on the market then the chances are slim.

We could get into a pointless debate about weather factors and the humidity and CB's of Florida vs the rain and low cloud of Britain. Suffice to say that thousands of people have completed their PPL CPL and IR courses in the UK over the last 50 odd years.

My advice is:

Find a long established school that can offer you the full PPL CPL and IR course.

Enrol with them for the lot gaining a small discount and stipulate you would like one instructor throughout where possible.

Hopefully the school is not too far from home. If it is find a static caravan to rent.

Do your Class One medical then a PPL course. See if you like it.

After that build a few hours, go to Florida if you want.

Then do the ATPL distance learning course whilst working full time at something.

Then do the CPL and IR courses via the modular route at your PPL school.

Cheers

WWW