"Cathay disciplines pilots for "sporty" landing"(Merged).

[fr8ter boi]

Heard a little rumour that a 744 recently ended up at 500' at 60 degrees angle of bank - at 7 miles fianls to 07L!

Sounds sporty. Any one know any more?

[InitRef]

http://www.thestandard.com.hk/news_detail_frame.cfm?articleid=50127&intcatid=1

Cathay Pacific Airways has disciplined the flight crew of a Boeing 747-400 passenger jet after what one insider said was a ``sporty'' approach to Hong Kong International Airport late last month.

The Civil Aviation Department confirmed that the captain and first officer ignored the advice of air traffic controllers.

As a result, the aircraft had to make a 60-degree turn just 500 feet above the choppy waters of the Pearl River estuary so that it could land safely on the airport's northern runway. Angelique Tam, Cathay Pacific manager of corporate communications, confirmed that an incident had taken place.

[Oasis]

"It wasn't me" --Shaggy

[VR-HFX]

Maybe at long last they will finally do something about those split duties....other than just sending out notices reinforcing the need to fly missionary position.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Shame on you VR-HFX, surely you know that the cricket bat will only fit from the 'doggy' position..you are such a tease!:D

[jtr]

Your Honour, may I call to the stand, the learned 411A, an expert in all things avition, the paragon of aeronautical wisdom, whose unbiased, and insightful words may well part the curtains for the unknowing amongst us.

cue trumpet fanfare, and much muffled discussion amongst all in attendance

[VR-HFX]

SC

With no inferences to anyone real or imaginary and apologies to Lear.


The Owl and the Pussy-Cat took off from Manila
In a beautiful plane, pea-green and vanilla
No time for any sleep,
And without a peep
They wrap it up to three five o .


The Owl looked up the appropriate STAR,
And sang a short PA,
"What terrible weather, O Pussy, my love,
What terrible weather down there,
Down there,
Down there!
What terrible weather down there!"

Pussy said to the Owl, "You're flying foul,
What alarms have you triggered now!
Oh! let us be worried;
too long we have tarried:
But what do we do when they ring?"
They went away, for a year with less pay,
To the land where the simulator goes;
And there in a hood they tried to make good,
By correctly pointing the nose,
The nose,
The nose,
By correctly pointing the nose.


"Dear Owl, are you willing to stop turning on a shilling
and maintain profile and heading?" To the DFO, "I will."
So they worked away, and were re-endorsed next day
By the Turkey who lives on the hill.
They ate humble pie, but at least can still fly
If only the freighter to Mumbai and Dubai;

Mumbai
Dubai

And hand in hand as they are about to land
They usually decide to go around,
Go around,
They usually decide to go around.

[Schrodingers Cat]

Well done, VR-HFX....but I must sound a warning..

With such an obvious talent for doggerel, (for Edward Lear is regarded as management 101 for CX), you may find yourself drinking from the poisoned chalice if you're not careful...........:eek: :ooh: :eek:

[HotDog]

VR-HFX, lucky Laurie isn't around any more, otherwise you would have become the "Poet that Laurie ate"!:E

[Oasis]

So what song tune does that go well with?
Funny post! :D

[Traffic]

Rev

I assume that would be after being cooked in Olive oil:}

[HotDog]

Oh yes, you can't knock it. After all, they produced the Swire Bottler.:{

[Traffic]

Yep, the Life of Brian was a classic;)

[Shore Guy]

Does anyone know?

(1) What type of approach was being conducted (ILS, LOC, VOR,ASR)?

(2) Any truth to the 500' seven miles from the runway?

[jtr]

ILS - 90% sure

520 ft at 7.something miles IZSL - 99.9% sure

[VR-HFX]

jtr

Perhaps you could give us the ATIS as well??

[shortly]

You know guys it has ever impressed me how we aviators are so quick to hang each other out to dry after an error, remember pilot error. We must be the only professional body that doesn't close ranks or professionally support each other (whoops here come the pit bulls re 49ers lol - but that was personal not professional). This was a nasty incident, no doubt, it will be thoroughly investigated and the report will be factual and complete. The company will learn, the crew has learnt and we will all benefit from this scary wake up call - I am glad it had as happy an ending as it did. 100% certain many of us will make mistakes on our flights today.

[VR-HFX]

Shortly

How right you are.

Levity in doggerel was for our friend the feline.

I would be the first to own up to finger trouble of the kind that I think may have occurred in this case. My only hope is that it will finally bring an end to the stupid split duty regimen.

[shortly]

Not so long ago the 'no blame culture' was espoused as the epitome of professional safe airlines. Of course we all know there is no such thing as a completely non blame environment - at least in our profession. Nonetheless recent examples have clearly indicated that our airline is in the least fair following incidents of reported error. To be frank, that's all I ask, a fair hearing from my peers and I am with you in this VR-HFX, come clean and cop your dues, just as the professional, capable and extremely pleasant captain did on this occasion.

[BusyB]

Yes,
Aren't the line guys good at fronting up and taking their lumps by comparison with the management guys who never seem to take any lumps for their errors!

[shortly]

The management guys, well contrary to BusyB I have a great deal of sympathy for them. The amount of flying they get keeps them barely current and given the sophistication of our operation, well the PNF should keep a good eye on them. We all remember the gear flag and the push back incidents. From the perspective of the Company, both those guys had clearly demonstrated their loyalty and a little in return was only to be expected. It's a big picture thing BusyB and I have no problem with our system.

[BusyB]

Double standards have no place in a professional operation!

[Oasis]

They don't, but they are a reality.

[shortly]

It was on both occasions in no way a double standard. The treatment you receive following an indiscretion must surely be biased against your overall history. Surely even the pit bulls can see that. In my experience at CX, no one admits to the number of times they have had tea and bickies with the Boss followed by a letter on file. We are all squeaky clean aren't we?

[christn]

Sorry shortly you really must sometimes take off those blinkers!
There is definitely one set of rules for them and another for us: requested trips, days off, leave, operating before and after leave and yes - disciplinary action.

[FlexibleResponse]

shortly…”The management guys, well contrary to BusyB I have a great deal of sympathy for them. The amount of flying they get keeps them barely current and given the sophistication of our operation, well the PNF should keep a good eye on them.”
BusyB’s comment on this (four posts above) is spot on.

Some posters, in spite of them claiming to be professional pilots, should not be allowed within 30.7 metres of a cockpit.

Management pilots must be either safe to operate or given remedial training. Public transport of paying passengers demands the highest standards that do not pander to fools.

[VR-HFX]

I am not Shortly by another name but suspect we are of the same vintage.

I envy you young blokes that still see only black & white. I suspect the grey will come with time.

The issue of management flying is a difficult one and the reason many have been there and then opted out.

My personal view is that we would be better served by filling the ranks with 55+ guys suitably qualified to manage. The flying job is not getting any easier in spite of the a/c and it certainly cannot be done safely by your average driver (90% of us) on a part time basis.

This is an issue facing every airline, including the ones you put your wife and kids on without a second thought.

You easily forget that we are still as good as it gets and that includes QF, BA and the rest of the bunch we too easily assume have worked through these issues better than we have.

[BusyB]

VR-HFX,
I don't want to seem awkward, but what is your point. We have standards, or we don't. Let's all just be "managed" to the same standard.

[VR-HFX]

BusyB

Fair point.

What I was trying to say is that you can check someone out as meeting the min standards...then run them through some split duties and time zones what do you get...a plate of jello.

I can recall not too many years ago (well maybe it is is a lot of years ago now) turning into a plate of jello myself out the back of Lantau in the 1011with typhoon signal 3 up on my first sector in the company. Sweaty palms and everything went blank. I wasn't fired and was more than thankful for the man to my left who bought me a beer at the Aero Club and said the same thing had happened to him many years previous.

I was manged to a standard that ...on the day...I was not up to.

I agree with Shortly that we are all too quick to criticise our bretheren for being human when that is really the cement that keeps the whole thing together.

[BusyB]

VR-HFX,
I think you missed my point. Your example is of a type of CRM within a crew, my point is that managers (and Trainers) ARE managed like that now if they make a major error, line guys aren't.

[cpdude]

I'm having a real problem supporting a crew that used extremely poor judgment in this case. I too agree with Shortly that we are too quick to criticize our brethren but there are screw-ups and then there are screw-ups.

I can understand a crew being fatigued and approaching the wrong runway, or getting in too tight and fast and going around. We can all screw-up and have to do it again but in this case they pressed and pressed to the point that could have resulted in the worst possible outcome.

We have been hammered in the past 12 months by Management and checkers to be stabilized and configured on approach at 1500'. Just how many more warnings must we have? I think they should start to fine crews that bust the limit and continue to land. It is a safety issue and crews are not taking it seriously.

I still see crews selecting gear down at 1700' and landing flaps at 1400-1500'. Why do they wait till the absolute minimum to configure? To save 50KG of fuel? Get real, it's stupidity. Some checkers are still debriefing a too conservative approach. A dinosaur I say, not up with the times and gentlemen the times have changed so change with it.

I feel the company was very generous to keep the Captain with the company. He was ultimately responsible for the F/O’s errors and should of directed is flying earlier than he did. The F/O showed that his judgment is flawed and should not upgrade now or in the near future.

IMHO

[HotDog]

CPdude, with the kindest of intentions, could I caution you not to put your innermost thoughts to paper? We can all screw up as we are only human so severe criticism can and often does, come back to bite you. Cheers, HD.

[mr Q]

Have just revisited the Gulf Air GF072 accident report. Some interesting comments in the "analysis" section on CRM, adherence to SOPs and discussion on the inter connection and responsibility between so called pilot error and management and company responsibility.
I think it is well worth reading in the context of this CX thread. the URL is

http://www.bahrainairport.com/caa/gf072.html

[bekolblockage]

Most appear to be approaching this from a failure to meet the stabilised approach criteria point of view.
I would be more concerned about the non adherence to the Instument Approach Procedures for Runway 07 that indicate "NO CIRCLING" on the chart(s).
I read this to mean that if you stuff it up you have no alternative but to carry out the missed approach procedure and not just orbit where you feel like it, visual or not.
Sure, there's a lot of water out there and there ought to be some form of visual procedure in HK, but make that sort of error in more mountainous areas and you'll be picking bits of granite out of your teeth.

[cpdude]

Big difference between Circling and Visual approaches. A Visual may have a unique approach path and a circling may not. Far more restrictions imposed on the circling approach.

[fdr]

Autopilot disconnect without crew awareness in a dynamic (noisy) or high workload environment can occur with Airbus and Boeing types. Some basic work on this a while ago after another carrier had similar ballistic flight(s). Happens more often than anyone would like.

Can be set up in simulator but is not as subtle as in aircraft cases.
CWS/GPWS/FWC priorities indicate some issues with alerts to crews.

Human factors does include design...:}

[jtr]

fdr, I think you may be speaking of a different CX incident.