GWA's rip off cadet scheme

[Wings Of Fury]

Looks like GWA are running a scheme to obviously make money out of low time pilots that might, just might get a small chance at a job.

Enjoy:

CONGRATULATIONS

You have been selected on the short list of candidates for a B1900
ground school with Great Western Airlines in Adelaide starting Monday
30th August 0900.

Places are limited and the cost will be approximately $750 per person.
The course is expected to run through until Friday 3rd September

On completion of the ground school all candidates must be willing to
self-sponsor a B1900 FO endorsement at an approximate cost of $7000

Great Western Airlines will only give endorsement opportunities to
candidates who excel on the ground course, pass a simulator ride and are
assessed by an interview panel to be appropriate for employment.

Both Captain and FO positions will be available in Perth and Adelaide
starting on a casual basis with prospects of a full time position
subject to performance.


Once selected candidates will be notified of a confirmed position and
will be required to pay a $150 deposit that will be non-refundable,
balance to be paid on arrival at GWA Adelaide.

BEST OF LUCK:yuk:

I think its awful that more and more operators are starting to do this, can anyone explain more about it or is it really just a money making scheme?

[Ibex]

They have been doing it for years.

Used to be that you would pay for a 1900 endo and get 50 hours in the right seat. Once the 50 hours were up off you went and the next person who had paid for an endorsement got their 50 hours, and so on...

Cheap way to crew a struggling regional "airline"

:yuk:

[takeonme]

tell 'em to get f*****d

[m-dot]

What a bunch of clowns.

Good luck GWA - losers!

[Ibex]

Clowns Shmowns.

They do it because they can.

Because there is a willing supply of suckers ready to part with their money. Or are they suckers? That 7 or 8 grand invested to give em a couple hundred turbine could be the ticket to bigger and better things...?

There are many more out there like that, O'connors I believe "congratulate" you on being selected for their ground school, yet only the "top" suckers there get the privilege of being selected to pay for endorsements.

Funny bloody ****!

Doesn’t Sharp offer much the same? Yet with their cadetship you get that all valuable chieftain co-pilot time, way to go for 70 grand!

That’s the way of the world, easy to look at it now and laugh, but a drowning man will climb over another to stay afloat, no matter the price.




:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[Windshear]

..... you all make me feel like an asshole for publishing the deal, could think of worse ways into Aviation for $7000 :oh:

[Richo]

Not to worry windy, nobody here holds you responsible for what happens after you post it. The inital content usualy always looks better than it is.

GWA, like many others has been presenting these courses for many years. Some have made a start this way and many others have parted with thier money. As someone said earlier, look closely at all offers and make your decision wisely.


Windy, You do us all a service that rightly diserves the recognition that it reguarly gets on the OZJOBS posts.

Don't feel like an asshole, you are far from it in most of our hearts.

[rujoking?]

The Australian aviation scene has reached a new level of depravity.
I have understood that the practice of paying for an endorsement to get a job has been in play for several years now and unfortunately looks like its here to stay.
I have also heard about the scheme of inviting 20 people to a ground course when there is only 2 jobs - O'Connors began this little trick several years ago.
Great Western Airlines has raised the bar by employing the above two methods along with trying to charge $750 for the pleasure of sitting in on the ground course. (Coupled with a $150 non-refundable deposit).
The final twist in this audacious scheme is that even if you do manage to excell in the $750 highly contested ground course, pass a simlulator ride, pass an interview, pay for your minimum $7000 endorsement - you still MAY BE offered a CASUAL position.

I am sickened - take up this offer at your own peril and I hope you can sleep at night.

ru*uckingjoking?

[Right Seat]

Hate to burst your bubble kids... At least they seem to be making no promises.

Have a crack at a company in DN operating B1900D groundschools for a hellova lot more than $750 and telling guys lies about job prospects.

I guess for the guys that laugh about turning down the opportunity to do a groundschool and subsequently missing out on the turbine job, please stop whining about your lives in GA and lack of opportunities to break into the turbine industry.

Take a look at the industry. Yes, it is sad at times, and probably not going to improve. In the UK, pilots are happily throwing thousands of pounds toward the chance to fly a 737... again with no guarantees, however, they are the ones that more often than not come out with a job.

Reality check time maybe?

[Highbypasss]

Richo With respect, my friend, I can't 'totally' agree with your last sentence. I think it should read like this.

"(Windy)...Don't feel like an asshole, you are far from it in ALL of our hearts." :ok:

I challenge ANYONE to state that the Windmeister is anything but a gentleman and a great help to us that need it. Windy, there is no way you can be held responsible for a job advertisement's content. With the utmost confidence I can say that I speak for everyone who is apreciative of your effort without reward. :D

As for GWA and others like them........I'm with takeonme all the way. The ONLY reply they deserve. Well put indeed, mate.:ok:



"I challenge ANYONE to state that the Windmeister is anything but a gentleman..."

I accept the challenge!!! :} :}

But I guess out of the goodness of my heart I can forgive Windy's many transgressions over the past three decades!!! :ok:

He's one of a kind. (Thank Goodness!!!)

Woomera

[rujoking?]

The sad thing is that they are not even targetting the 200 hour strainght from flight school guys who would do anything for a job - they are looking at guys with 2000 hours who should know better by now what they are really worth.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

[Marauder]

Reality check due here


Look at the job below GWA

Quote:----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KING AIR B200 PILOTS
Pearl Aviation seeks qualified pilots for various NT bases. Min 2500TT, 750 M/E Command, 100 M/E Night Command, min valid CIRS, ATPL. Applications by 20/8/04 to: Theo den Haan, PO Box 500, Kelmscott, WA 6991, or email [email protected]



Qualified Pilots Implication: No endorsement no job.

At GWA pay for endorsement, have a (casual) job.

At VB no B737 endorsement – no job,

At VB supply (buy) B737 endorsement- base check required, fail twice- no job $25K+ down the gurgler

Jetstar, when recruiting from the masses the same.

Do Rex charge for part of their recruitment process, any answers?.

Fact is good old days, QF would fly you to Sydney on the Domestic leg of an International Service (before the merger), accommodate you (cheaply), run you through he processes then fly you home, ah memories.

Now buy 2+ return tickets from West Coast(or wherever) to Sydney for Qantas Selection process, plus accommodation in Sydney, plus $165:00 for S & P.

I would suggest that it would cost somewhere between $750:00 and $7000:00 by the time that the process is complete and not necessarily successfully.




Bottom line is you have a choice, if you don’t want to be part of it, don’t, simple really (although decline more politely than some here have suggested, you never know if you will cross paths again in the future, and circumstances have changed).

If you want it, take it, don’t whinge.

I am not justifying this instance, but as I pointed out at the beginning, reality check.



BTW the 2000 hour requirement for Captains is required by CAO in relation to RPT multi crew

[Right Seat]

The sad thing is that they are not even targetting the 200 hour strainght from flight school guys who would do anything for a job - they are looking at guys with 2000 hours who should know better by now what they are really worth.

Why would they target the 200hr pilot? The poor old pilot with 200hrs will be stuck in the Co-Pilot seat until he/she somehow comes up with the 500 multi command required to shift over for a RPT command. It would make sense to take on guys with no restrictions for an upgrade.

The guys with 2000hrs should know better? Well, I'm sure theyre all still applying. Why would you want to be stuck in a baron for another 2yrs waiting for a shot at Rex or VB.

[puff]

Looks like it doesn't stop there...latest Australian Flying...

Turbine Endorsements on a Brand new PAC750XL
Complete Package of $3400...3 hours flying, theory and testing...

ICUS available at only? $250 per hour

Buy 4 hours get the 5th Free!

ICUS in a single pilot turbine, gotta help out the career!!!

Where do I sign up :yuk:

[grrowler]

This is hardly a unique offer, unfortunately it is the way the industry has gone and continues to go.
Other companies that I can think of offering the same (or similar) deal:

Pelair
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
Transair
Skippers
Oconnors
lets not forget the QF cadet scheme
as mentioned above have (read pay) for endos to get interview or job with VB or J*, and most other airlines worldwide.

Not that I agree with it, but its commonplace and here to stay.

So I guess that narrows your Oz options down to QF DE, Sunnies, Eastern, Air North, RFDS or Rex if you want to fly a jet or turbine and not pay anything. But I have a sneaking suspicion that you would go and pay for an endo if VB gave you a call...

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Sadly, this kind of practice has been happening all over the world for some time now.

Go to the USA and you can 'buy' any amount of multi-time you want.

$50 hour for freight runs is probably more value than $250 hour in a single engine turbine that is rare.

AT least paying for a 208 endorsement may be of use due to the number around the country.

[Wings Of Fury]

At VB and JQ you get the job and THEN get the endorsement if you haven't already got one. The difference being, GWA don't even guarantee a job only the promise of casual work IF YOU ARE LUCKY. That is a big difference.

[Snapper_head]

At least at Skippers you know you have a job before you pay the cash.

It would be very interesting to know how many on the ground school for how many positions.

[swamp monkey]

How many do they need realistically. They can't take on too many captains or FO's unless there is rapid expansion or mass desertion? :confused:

[slice]

Well, as far as I know they have 1x 1900 in PH and 1x 1900 in AD. Unless they both fly all day and half the night they are not going to need that many crew. 3 Crew per AC would probably cover it I think ?

:}

[vee tail]

8 spots on the course
4 spots available, 2 in perth and 2 in adelaide.
at this stage and may be another course in 6 months:\ :*

[ozpilot]

The big point here is that GWA is making money off people doing an unnecessary ground school if they don't get the job.

If they are going to the trouble of interviewing and sim riding anyway, why not do that first and then make people pay for the endorsement as other companies do. That way they get what they want and still have the candidate paying for his/her own training. Under this current scheme, those who do the groundschool and don't get jobs (going by what vee tail says - 4 people) are making a charitable donation of $3000 total to GWA and getting very little out of it. Once they have done the course they have no useful qualification to show for it. It is not like you could go to another company who has B1900s and say, " hire me because I already have a groundschool qualification". They would want you to do their own course.

Complete and utter revenue raising move by GWA.

[propje]

If GWA wants to save money why don't they hire guys with time on type, I know a guy with 4800 hrs on the 1900 who applied for a captain position and got turn down............
It's ridicalous that these practices still occur in aviation, maybe the government should do something about it.

[Supercala]

You guys all sound like your past the stage where you have to pay for an endorsement. What about the little guys who have been offered the ground school with Great Western. Should they fork out the cash and do it or tell them to get f****d like some have suggested.

[huntsman]

personally, i don't think any of these companies are doing any differently to just about every flying school in australia.
ie. training people for a spot they may not get.
then again, how many flying schools can offer somethiong like 50% chance at a reasonable job?

[gaunty]

If it is as described, you know the industry is well on the road to perdition, when charter companies have to fund their bottom line with such shenanigans.

It is immoral, UnChristian, uncharitable, etc. etc, blah, blah, and the sort of scam regularly exposed on ACA, Springer et al.

Bit like the, "you should be a model, for $3,000 I'll do a photo portfolio for you that'll get you onto the worlds catwalks" :rolleyes: And yep the "least likely to" fall for it almost everytime.

Unfortunately it's not big enough to grab public attention, but it might be something that Consumer Affairs or Fair Trading might find interesting.

I have absolutely no probs advertising ratings on a pays your money you take your chances.

However, cycling new graduates through the RHS does not sound like the sort of work practise that would get my tick for "professional duty of care".

[Right Seat]

However, cycling new graduates through the RHS does not sound like the sort of work practise that would get my tick for "professional duty of care".

Not sure where you are getting your info Guanty, but cycling graduates through the RHS (apart from upgrades) seems extremely unlikely.

As for the rest of the dribble in your post... is a company in the wrong for getting a pool of pilots for 'hold' for future positions? Is this NOT what Qantas and other companies do? Pay for your own testing then wait for a yes/no with no reasoning given for a no... Its not just the little companies taking advantage of the fact most pilots will give there left nut for a shot at turbine RPT flying.

Good luck with consumer affairs and fair trading... it'll take them a while to get through the 100's of companies already playing a similar game.

After spending upwards of 50K on getting to an employable stage in this industry, why not spend another 7K on your first type rating that will see you doing plenty of flying and get you some valuable experience prior to moving to bigger and better things...

[Bula]

Come on everybody lets think about this one.. if all the operators around the country advertised their scheme (which are similiar to skippers, GWA, Flying school around australia etc) we could fill up an aviators guide to supporting the industry we most love..... The sacrificial lamb.. 2nd, 3rd, 4th... 100th edition.... 200 pages of aviation prospects.

Unfortunalty its a fact of life that without these people the bottom line may fall out $%% of some of these companies. Whether this leads to better or worse jobs... well i'll leave that one up to you. Were never going to get rid of things like this... dont we all spend $50K on a gamble to get a job? I know plenty who have and haven't even been given a start. I guess some people want it more then others and the lengths that people goto to get them are large and varied but in the end very little difference exists.

Admittedly spending the money on the chance you might be selected for a job is a big on the high side of arrogance on part of the operators but I already know people who have applied for it........... everyone is entitled to do what they think will excel their career.

[Gravox]

As of next year I believe that FO endorsements will not be recognised, is this true?

Why buy a co pilot endorsement if you have to upgrade it later at an extra expense. IF you are going to do the GWA scheme insist on a command rating, atleast that way if you don't get a job you're more employable than someone with an fo endorsement.

[megle2]

I am not familiar with GWA but as its not mentioned so far -

Is there anybody in GWA qualified and approved by CASA to conduct the ground school?

Just a thought.

[Mr. Hat]

Unfortunately people- and I know people are going to jump down my throat - but I gotta say it.

No Unions- crap conditions and its going to get worse and worse.

People working their arses off for nothing and no job security.

People are going to bag me sure, but hey just have a look at the score guys..we are really losing here. Thats with no unity.

I've said this before also - student numbers need to be capped. There is a massive oversupply of pilots in this country. Employers are just going to do the best for themselves and why not - they are in buisness to stay in buisness and hopefully make a profit. In this industry thats really hard for them - there just ain't that much money in it so yeah they resort to this stuff. Survival of the fittest. they are not in it for the fun of it.

But hey thats all cool cause kiddies keep handing over the 40k, companies pass some of that on in tax and the government just keeps cashing in. Why do characters like HA and co get away with it? Its in the governemnts interest. Do you think if you owed Centerlink $100 dollars that they'd shrug it off as easily as they shrug off the knowledge of all the pilots getting paid $15000 a year in GA - good luck.

No point in getting angry at companies, get angry with the government, get angry with the fact that we have no unity and thus we get screwed.

Rant over.

[Ralph the Bong]

Just out of interest, do GWA operate RPT routes or just charter?

Do the people who use GWA for their transport needs know that GWA is involved in this training, where one of the pilots is crewing the flight as a student selected on the criteria to pay rather than on personal attributes?

[Marauder]

Ralph said

Just out of interest, do GWA operate RPT routes or just charter? Do the people who use GWA for their transport needs know that GWA is involved in this training, where one of the pilots is crewing the flight as a student selected on the criteria to pay rather than on personal attributes?


Can I re phrase,

Just out of interest, do (Insert Virgin, Jetstar, Pelair) operate RPT routes or just charter?

Do the people who use (Insert Virgin, Jetstar, Pelair) for their transport needs know that (Insert Virgin, Jetstar, Pelair) is involved in this training, where one of the pilots is crewing the flight as a student selected on the criteria to pay rather than on personal attributes?



Ability to pay, do you mean personally or some benefactor. I would suggest that there would be very few pilots in Oz if they did not have the ability to pay for their training.


Get real Ralph, are you suggesting that it is inappropriate to conduct training on the line, after all (CASA approved) pre line training aspects have been covered.

[Gone Troppo]

Well said Marauder...
I mean, you have the choice really. You can either buzz around in a B58 or C310 etc, or you can take a chance and fast track things by purchasing atleast some multi-crew/ multi engine turbine experience. No garrentees, but you would have been pretty silly to take on aviation as a carreer and expected any! I have considered the GWA option, have 2000+ but never carried a paying passenger. Wouldn't consider myself a loser! The majority of those hours has demanded extremely high concentration, not monitering an auto-pilot! I cleaned toilets offshore to get the money to pay for a GWA or VB ground school/ endorsement, when and if I choose to.
My point is, they are offering an opportunity to those who want to grab it. Money making? Maybe. But that is business!
So, the choice is yours.

That is a fair comment Mr. Hat.
Just one thing... how do you select which students to cap? I mean some of us have taken up aviation for reasons other than just eppaulettes and an airline job. Some people actually take it up because they are so passionate about it, whether they fly a microlight or a 747. The flying itself is more important than the vehicle that allows it, to a true aviator. Capping numbers for a commercial syllabus? Perhaps? Rather you come up with the selection process than me.
Maybe, airlines should just employ ex-airforce (sorry about the sarcasim). Indeed a tough problem.

[Icarus2001]

Do the people who use (Insert Virgin, Jetstar, Pelair) for their transport needs know that (Insert Virgin, Jetstar, Pelair) is involved in this training, where one of the pilots is crewing the flight as a student selected on the criteria to pay rather than on personal attributes?

That comment is wrong in so many ways that it is either a wind up or you really have no idea what you are talking about.

Read carefully: VB FOs do not commence employment until they have a command endorsement on the B737.

[Mr. Hat]

Gone troppo. Just out of interest how did you clock so many hours with no fare paying pax?

How to cap with out penalising chaps like yourself? Perhaps a cap based on commercial flying activity. Its a hard question.

In Britain i think they use aptitude tests to start off with. I'm not saying the should be super super hard just saying to cut some fat off. Have you seen how many students those sausage factories pump out? Its ridiculous and it makes it harder for the bloke who is trying to make a living out of flying and who hasn't taken it up cause it looks cool or might improve your chances at pulling roots.

Cap the numbers and see what happens. Make it harder and see who sticks with it.

My thoughts.

[Gone Troppo]

Mr. Hat
Easy...Low-level Air work... And that includes twin work. Have just resigned and moving into higher level air work and trying get those ATPL's done.
Your reply was fair...
I heard a young (17 or 18?) fellow at a supermarket checkout say to his customers that he was going to be a pilot (with his chest out) because that was where the money is! HAHAHA
Plenty of them out there... well, I didn't have the heart to ask him what money... and has really considered his true motivation for taking to the sky!
Cheers
Take it easy

[Menen]

Regarding paying for a rating on type. A pilot from Fiji recently obtained a B737 type rating in Australia and had been threatened by the powerful Air Pacific Pilot's Union in Fiji that if he bought the rating they would ensure he would never get a job in Fiji. It's called living in the dark ages. He had the courage to go ahead and do his own thing.

[air-hag]

By the way, *** (a certain blood-sucking loser RPT operation in WA) I hereby inform you that you SUCK.

I wonder if one of the trainers is BM... not the BM of '89 infamy but another with same name and of dunderhead-edness fame?? Now that would be funny... but would not change the fact that *** and their slimy money-grubbing practices SUCK big style.

No one at YPPH has the least respect for your crap little airline.

[Tagneah]

Its so great the way a device like PPrune enables people to say what they want under the security blanket of anonymity.

While we're at it I just want to say to John Jenkens from High School that I told you Id make it and all those wedgies on sports day just proves what a 'looser' you are!!!

10 Years and Ive finally got that off my chest!

Thankyou Prune!


Tag

[air-hag]

Tagneah..... :ok: I agree totally. It opens up such a wide range of entertainment for someone like..... well, me.

By the way, I love it when people call others "Loosers". Always makes me smile!!!

:E :D :O :) := :ok:

[Tagneah]

I was just copying "Looser" out of my highschool year book!

At least I got "Anonymity" correct!

Tag

:ok:

[Mr. Hat]

Gone Troppo check your Private Messages.