Airlines looking for pilots.

[Kaptin M]

The number of airlines now looking for pilots must be reaching an all time high - and it's only going to get better, as retirements spiral over the next 10 years or so.

Let's have look at who's recruiting around Asia...please feel free to add to the list:-
SILK AIR - Singapore - A320
TIGER AIRWAYS -Singapore - B737
AIR JAPAN - Japan - B767
SKY NET ASIA - Japan - B737
JAL EXPRESS - Japan - MD90
NIPPON CARGO AIRWAYS - Japan - B747 Classic
VIETNAM AIRLINES - Viet Nam - B767.B777
SHENZEN AIRLINES - China - B73NG
HAINAN AIRLINE - China - B73NG
AIR INDIA - India - B747

Airlines that are going to need pilots in the near future are either going to have to start recruiting NOW, or make considerably significant increases to their current employment terms & conditions to lure pilots away from their present employers.

Ever wondered WHY there aren't going to be nearly enough experienced pilots to go around?
One only need look at the way pilots have been abused and screwed over the past 7-8years (or so) to realise why so many have been DRIVEN AWAY from flying, and why prospective pilots see no reasonable return on their massive cash outlay required for BASIC training.

Aggressive management MAY have saved a few pennies along the way, but it's going to cost POUNDS to rectify the situation they've created!

[Fly747]

Kaptin, how could you forget Cathay and Dragon?
See inside back cover of this week's Fllight for article on recuitment and the coming upturn.
Good News for once I hope.

[Wizofoz]

Plus in Europe (Actually just Britain!)...

Easyjet
Britania/Thomsonfly
Ryanair
British Airways
Virgin....

Things DO seem to be on the up...

[Firestorm]

So that's good news for the guys from My Travel who got their cards last month, but what about the rest of us trying to shake of the turbo-prop disease?

[B737NG]

Out of the Turboprop on your own? Diffucult but not impossible. Try as many operators you know. One day the requirement will
drop and you would be able to get a position. First the market will absorb the qualified and current pilots. After the operators cannot fill the seats then typeratings with training bonds will be offered. Sit tight and wait ..... Singapore, Quatar and more are already given convertions and they are still not get enough Pilots.

Good luck

NG

[Shenlin]

thats all great but most of these companies want jet time or a rating .Both i dont have :ugh:

close to 4.000 hours lots of turbine and PIC but thats it .
.....University degree in psychology ......Nobody cares about LOL

i keep slugging away i guess

[aagg]

Maybe the 600 000 private pilots in the USA will get desent jobs soon !!?

[JW411]

Shenlin:

I simply cannot believe that you really do have a University Degree in Psychology.

If you had, then you would surely understand that the last the thing you would ever want to tell any prospective airline employer (when seeking employment as a pilot) was that you had a University Degree in Psychology!

[eltel]

JW411,
Not using joined up thinking, JW. He'd be a cert for CRM Trainer,
a nesseccary precursor for senior management in any modern airline. Cynical, moi?

nesseccary=necessary.

[Dani]

Hey, nothing against Psychology. It may not be the most suitable study field for a pilot (sometimes it may be indeed), but at least you have a university degree, that places you above average and showed that you did something.
Actually I know of a pilot who was psychologist before. He really was one of the best pilots I ever flew with, also because of CRM.

[fireflybob]

Very interesting article in Flight magazine today about the pilot situation in Russia where they are getting despartely short of pilots due to poor pay and company expansion.

The poor pay is driving Russian pilots to see employment overseas so watch out guys your job might be taken by our friends from Russia!

Joking apart times seem to be improving and I dont think the recent hike in oil prices will have any significant effect. Apparently once the oil price hits $40 a barrel (like now!) it becomes economic to start mining it from other areas which in turn will bring the prices back down again.

[Shenlin]

Why would i not tell any company that i have a degree in psychology ?
I flew twin otters and beavers on floats before i got my current job , so my hands and feet skills are pretty good . I fly single pilot IFR now and my interpersonal skills are ok as i am told by many friends .
Should i lie about my university education and have a 4 year void on my application ?

If thats what it takes to get a jet job i might not want it afterall .
thanks for the input so

Nothing in this industry surprises me anymore ....

[Kaptin M]

Nothing in this industry surprises me anymore ....

You are SO right, Shenlin.
The profession of pilot has been systematically attacked over the past decade, by airline "managers" and H.R. departments whose singular objective and sole purpose appeared to be that of destroying pilots' conditions by FORCE, rather than through negotiation and mediation.
And so although our work tasks have primarily remained the same, a lot more (unnecessary) stress and aggravation have been added to the job by having to deal with people intent on trying to destroy a job that could give satisfaction by striving to SAVE money for the employer.
Pilots used to ENJOY going to work years ago - regardless of the length of duty hours involved.
Over the years, management have been successful in reducing conditions to such that flying is "justa another job".As a matter of fact, it is quite often LESS than "just another job", due to the long periods spent away from home, the unproductive scheduling of crews, and the miserable salaries paid which are not commensurate with the regularly checked levels of proficiency and high medical standards that must be maintained.

Yes, airlines ARE now looking for pilots, but if they want to ATTRACT and KEEP them, they are going to have to make it WORTHWILE, and restore the profession to what it was before.

Benefits that have been withdrawn, and that cost NOTHING - such as First Class travel, and foc travel on space available - are the "extras" that might convince a pilot to choose employer A over employer B.

With many pilots as p!ssed off as they are, and with the increasing demand, I believe that there may be an opening for "part-time" pilots - pilots who are happy to work say 3 or 4 days per week.

I believe that the impending pilot shortage can, in large part, be attributed to the shoddy treatment pilots have been dished out.

As an example of how companies are starting to feel the squeeze, I know of 1 guy who has had a recent job offer in China increased by USD1,000 per month plus a FREE conversion (from the 73 Classic) onto the NG.
Another pilot was told that all he had to do to get the job was "show up...no interview, no sim check ride", free ticket provided.

Don't sell yourselves cheap - it is only going to get better.
But it is up to EACH and EVERY one of us to try to get the BEST we can (which is why it is in the companies' interests to exclude unions).
Conditions ARE negotiable - regardless of what you are told.
After all, contracts are "Individual"!
Happy Hunting.

[silverhawk]

Shenlin

please ignore JW411


I'm sure you'll be fine

lots of jobs coming up. The oil price will be absorbed by the travelling public

[MystiCKal]

thats good news :D especially for those thinking of starting a pilot education ;)

[MOR]

Kaptin M

Perhaps for "With many pilots as p!ssed off as they are", we should read "With Kaptin M as p!ssed off as he is", and for "the shoddy treatment pilots have been dished out", we should read "the shoddy treatment Kaptin M has been dished out"...
;)

Agree with you though, I have pretty much decided to leave the industry and do something else. I can't reconcile the amount of responsibility we are expected to shoulder, the level of skill we are required to demonstrate, and the ease with which we can lose our livelihood every six months, with the the petty degradation in our pay and conditions.

When you consider that one of us screwing up could easily end an airline, we are not valued nearly highly enough these days, especially when upper-middle managers are getting more perks than we will ever see.

I for one have had enough of having my life dicked about by Crewing - paying for their screw-ups with my time; staring at hotel rooms, wasting my life spending weeks at outstations.

There are much better things in life...

[Dani]

I agree that employment conditions are deteriorating year after year. Not everywhere, but in most places. On the other hand I can understand to a certain degree that HR guys and airline chiefs try to destroy the once shiny picture of the "god of the skies", because we have seen some very unhealthy practises of pilots and their unions over the years. Some companies seem to be in the strong hand of a powerful pilot union, and some even go bankrupt (not only because of the unions but they maybe could avoid it without them).
Sometimes I miss the common sense when I talk to pilots, common sense, which is the most important thing in a cockpit. But also in strategic issues and economic consideration within the industry. The middle of the road is where you have the biggest distance to the edges. :ok:

Dani

[fireflybob]

The problem is that many corporate organisations these days lack leadership. They are "controlled" by accountants who have no entrepreneurial or people skills worth talking about and they know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

The only people that understand the pilot's job are pilots! Nobody else understands what it feels like when you strap that big shiny jet to your backside with 200 + people behind you and the responsibility which is involved.

I have always said that the most challenging bit of being an airline pilot is staying with it when you are feeling tired. With the current "creative crewing" practices which are around in many companies now this is even more true.

I started airline flying in 1971 - no doubt about it, the job is NOT what it used to be. Pilots are no longer respected by management and most of the travelling public regard us as overpaid button pushers!

[aagg]

Man I wish you pilots would stop winding ! I always admired the job of a pilot untill I discovered PPRUN.
You guys have the best jobs on earth. You stay in great hotels all over the world. Every day you go to 'work', you go on another holiday!
You do not know what it is to do a real job!
And how high would your aeroplanes get off the ground if the check-in staff where not there, or the engineers did not sign out the aircraft, or the marketing department did not sell tickets, or the baggage handlers did not load the aircraft ? I should not mention the words, "glorified bus drivers" ? Sorry!!
You are just part of a team and part of a huge company.
If you realy want to get rich, you will have to bite the bullet and start you own business (own airline like Nikki Lauda did) ! Then you will find out what real pressures are! Not just raking in huge salaries without knowing where the money comes from.
Enjoy your next holidays !!!

[Fester T Adams]

That last post is bound to get a few backs up. :D

[Oxidant]

Really?............


BTW must agree with Kaptin M, the job is going down hill fast.
Now, not wanting to start a BALPA bashing.....How come the TGWU can get a deal for its underground drivers of more £ & a four day 32 hour week. While we see our T&C get worse & worse?.......... :rolleyes:

(& I am a BALPA member!)

[YYZ]

aagg you seem to be duplicating your posts on different threads?

I do love the attempt to wind people up with the old classics "Glorified bus driver" and "every day is a holiday"

I am sure no one will rise to you crude attempt to annoy them as obviously you are to ignorant to care or understand the difficulty’s that people encounter in all aspects of what you perceive as being the worlds best job.
I would suggest you get to know some pilots so you can then better understand.

I am sure then your comments would be better received?

[Baron rouge]

AAGG,

you forgot the best of all, the wonderfull treatment we get from the stewardesses;)

[CaptainProp]

........and you CAN get a jobb without rating.....Was hired about a month ago to fly Airbus....only have turbo-prop experience...

Good luck!!!

[maxalt]

Better change your handle then Captain prop!

Well done, good luck!:ok:

[aagg]

YYZ, sorry for mentioning the busdriver thing ! ;)

[unwiseowl]

I think the EU will make all companies offer it from next year and that can only add to any pilot shortage.

[Kaptin M]

Quite rightly aagg - it`s an insult to bus drivers to compare them to pilots.

Bus drivers enjoy far better conditions than many pilots eg. loadings for working on public holidays/week-ends/night time, extra money for overtime, no charge for "endorsements", not having to wait for late/no show pax.....

Back to subject - I see that Flight International reports that one of the Chinese airlines is going to recruit foreign pilots for the first time in their history.

Airlines looking for pilots - sure makes a nice change from "pilots looking for airlines"!

[onthebuses]

Kaptin M,

I hope you were joking when you said our T&C's are better than many pilots... Maybe in your neck of the woods, but not here. With top end of £12 per hour, my job is for only two types;

Those (like me) who are working to further ambitions..

And those with no ambition.

Careerwise it's the pits, all of it, T&C's, management, everyone thinks your scum because you drive a bus, including management!!

Sound familiar???

OTB:ok:

[Whippersnapper]

So, aagg, are you just basing your opinions on 1970's stereotypes, or do you really think spending Christmas Eve in a Holiday Inn Express with a closed bar, closed restaurant and noisy corridors, away from your family, is really that great?

You clearly have no idea of the working conditions, pressures and responsiblities of the modern pilot, so perhaps you might find out before posting such a remark.

[Captain Mercurius]

Well folks, this is PPRUNE nowadays:


It did started supposedly to allow professional pilots to have serious discussion about problems affecting their profession, and nowadays it is an open door to ANYONE .

Some frustrated individuals in their majority barely capable to drive a small car, acting as “aviation expertise” telling us how good is our life, and how spoiled we are!:}

A Babel tower, full of i***s who think that they have a lot of knowledge about Professional Aviators lives.:yuk: :mad:

They do think that anyone capable to manage Microsoft Flight Simulator is capable to fly an aeroplane.:hmm:
“What’s the big deal?
It is just a matter to seat and push some buttons, piece of cake isn’t? “

To quote aagg:

“And how high would your aeroplanes get off the ground if the check-in staff where not there, or the engineers did not sign out the aircraft, or the marketing department did not sell tickets, or the baggage handlers did not load the aircraft? I should not mention the words, "glorified bus drivers" ? Sorry!!
You are just part of a team and part of a huge company. “

Well it seems that you are one of those terribly frustrated with your position within your company.

And you also think that it is terribly unfair for you to work were you work, because in your sick mind you think that those spoiled guys raking huge salaries without knowing from were their salaries are paid, are unfairly getting the benefits and appreciation, isn’t?:rolleyes:

Well aagg, I can clarify how things really work in Professional Aviation.

There are several departments on the organization ,this is truth.

Marketing, Sales, Engineers, loaders, etc.

However, there is only one Department and group of people, who is in charge of the FINAL LINE OF PRODUCTION, and these are the pilots!

Those spoiled guys in your distorted point of view and mind, who place their entire lives and family future every six months in a Licence renewal process.

Those spoiled guys, who have to study and attend courses continuously to ensure that they will have further six months of employment.

Those spoiled and rich guys who have to spend countless nights away from family meanwhile their families, friends, children and wife blow candles, spend Christmas or New Year eve without them being present.

Those unfairly rich guys who do their utmost to deliver the ship and everybody safe to their destinations, regardless time in the day, or night.


These are the people responsible for the success of any airline in the planet, because simply they are the FINAL LINE OF PRODUCTION.

Pilots are those who ensure and highly contribute for their airlines profits, not people like you with your kind of mentality.:*

You can have the best airline team in the world, however if you do not have PILOTS
(You know, those rich and spoiled guys) you can not fly the aircraft, so then no profit no money.

Therefore, the aircraft will go nowhere without pilots, and crew.

I am sure from now on; you will be one more of those enthusiastic campaigners for Pilot less aircraft.

In addition, regarding about “certain entrepreneurs” in aviation, it would be better for you to do some serious research about, before praising them, you may get deeply surprised the “techniques” they use to make their fortunes.


End to the quote:


As a last one, I just have to wait to be reprimanded by the moderators of this thread for my language.;)


Mercurius

[NTMU]

Good one, Captain Mercurius...

How i wish you r the boss...

[RicChester]

Some valid points Capt M but I reckon we need to also remember that although we as pilots (or trainee pilots in my case) are the last link in the 'supply chain', there are others that are also working hard to ensure we get bums on seats, making sure the aircraft isn't tech, making sure there are crew for the flight etc... If they don't do their job properly then we can't do ours...in that sense we're all equally important in the supply chain, ideally working towards a common goal.

No I'm not airline management. Yes I work for an airline and yes I am training to join the pilot fraternity.

RichC

[fullforward]

Oh, my God!

I can´t believe how could some fellows be so naive to give attention to b......t producers like aagg. He´s probably LOL on thinking - " how I pissed off those pilots!"...
C´m on guys, lets simply ignore idiots like this and make good use of this wonderful space!...
cheers

[Dani]

Well, I agree that a pilot is not a bus driver, and that you have to expect to walk out from a simulator for the last time every six months (something I experienced myself!). But all those individuals among us who ever had a good job with some degree of responsability outside the cockpit, all those who didn't just jump off the school into flight training, we all know: Life in the daily battle of the free market forces is at least as hard, pay is seldome higher and working conditions are much harder for sure. The only advantage of a white collar worker is that often he will not suffer from the error he is creating, he will just be fired, but he will survive.

Dani, airline pilot

[fireflybob]

Captain Mercurius, agree 100%!

Reminds me of an occasion a long while ago at a staff meeting for a leading charter airline where another element of the work force were complaining about the fact that pilots got yearly increments and they didn't.

The Managing Director (who was very respected by all) said, "It's quite simple - if you want pilot's pay then go and become a pilot".
Silence followed!

[E. MORSE]

what a beautiful flight again last evening, a very nice visual approach with a short final and a smooth and gentle landing, followed by a short hop to another island , where the 1 st officer made a rather ferm landing.

Looked around prepared for the return flight , including the pax figures , baggage weight , notams , fuel , weather , route , take off performance- with the ambient wind , temperature , air pressure , weight, runway length , speeds and thrust , special passengers , local rules etcetera.

A nice return flight avoiding the thunderstorms, delaying descent , to avoid the thunderstorms underneath us right then, followed by a steeper descent and a nice approach and landing by the 1 st officer who was still a bit "pissed"by his landing before... gentle braking the 83 tons landing weight from 135 knots down to taxi speed...

And on the bus back to the car park , saying hello to the bus driver and getting a nice reply from him....

We respect each other in one's job, that's normal isn't it ?

Cheers , Endeavour

[christn]

The purpose of an airline is to fly aeroplanes.

The purpose of those who don't is to support those that do !!

[Gulfa]

Sorry fellow professionals, this post is not entirely appropriate for the title of this thread.
However:

Aagg
I cannot resist replying to your ignorant, immature, provocative post.

We sit 7 miles up in the sky, often many hours away from a suitable airport, responsible for Millions dollars and hundreds of lives.
In the blink of an eye, any number of failures or climatic events, perhaps a combination of both, can mean those lives and the aircraft are in jeopardy.

Our expertise and experience is what we are paid for ! Simple as that !

Meanwhile, the Engineers, baggage handlers, check-in staff and ticket sellers ( whose job, I couldn’t agree more, is crucially important in a successful & efficient Airline ) are at home having a nice cup of tea with the wife and kids.

Unless you’ve been there and done it, you simply have no clue !

[2Infinity&beyond]

One of the best instructors I had told me once: There are two kinds of people in the airline industry. Those who are pilots, and those who want to be pilots..... Although I am sure there are many people who enjoy their jobs in all industries, it does have some truth to it...
AAG, let me clarify something. Management decides where I fly the airplane, and the marketing and sales people make sure it does get filled. The other lovely people in the organization make sure everything runs smoothly, and the engineers make sure I have a good flying machine to take the paying passengers around. We upfront take them safely and efficiently to their friends and family, to their loved ones or to their job. We do that day and night, raining or sunshine.
Flying is a profession that requires a high degree of skill, inteligence and most of all responsibilty. It requires decisions now, and not tomorrow, or after a meeting, and a working group. Everyone else in the airline can get it wrong, but not us. We cannot get things done in our time, but in the time dictated by the situation we are in. We are in crisis management everyday and although I do enjoy what I do, I do not see the reason not to get paid well for it either, especialy since it takes alot of energy and effort on my part, not just when I am working, but most of my everyday life.
The people I see working however on the other side of the desk, do not seem to me to be puting the amount of effort, time, money, and skill to deserve the money we make upfront.
It is a free country, and if you think you deserve more, then leave your present job, go to the bank and ask for 120000 pounds, and come and join us.

[aagg]

Received this private message . At first I thought it was a bit harsh, but now I actually believe this guy! Sensored for the few good guys out there, and I quote:

Edited to remove a message masquerading as something written by someone else but quite obviously written by this poster. If anyone thinks they can get around the requirement to keep posts civil with this sort of amateur behaviour then they had better think twice.

Thats it, had enough of this, signing off for the last time!
Stop winding and get a desent job where you have to think and not just push switches according to a checklist.
Enjoy your holidays!

;) ;)

[take_that]

What is WINDING??? DESENT??? PAX FIRST THEN SAFETY!!!

It would be so easily to lower myself to your level and rub your nose in it but I am a professional and I enjoy my job. I really do not like people who use these forums as a way to annoy others.

I am so pleased that that was your last post, please do not change your username and return.

Maybe now we can get back to the thread. Please no more replies to AAGG or anyone else of that ilk and they will go away. Let us return to the interesting post that started this thread.

On behalf of all of us professionals, Thank you!

[MPH]

:confused: The first airline started with one pilot and his passenger. That was between St, Petersburg to Tampa Florida 1st of Jan 1919. The rest is history..if you know what I mean?

[Kaptin M]

..so he employed a "manager".

His manger told him that if he was going to succeed, he should sell his aeroplane, hand the money from the sale to the manager, and lease a BIGGER aeroplane.
To do this, he would need to carry a minimum of 3 pax...sorry, "customers"..every flight, if he hoped to pay off the aeroplane before his great, great grandchildren died.
And that the manager would double his bonus (equivalent to 1 year's salary) for each hour that ANY aircraft were leased by the new company, due to the amazing accounting procedures!!

But seeing potential conflict between pilot and management, it was decided that there should be an H.R. Department - a "go=between" to smooth things out.
Of course, management decided that THEY would determine WHO would pay the H.R. Dep't, and how they would be paid.

Now, as management and "the pilot" obviously had vested interests as to precisely HOW much they felt they should be paid - and as the HRD needed to be seen as an essentially neutral party - it was felt that an "Accounts Department" should be incorprorated to ensure that any profits over and above "basic operating costs" were administered to the various areas that most needed it. eg. accounting stationery, polish for the accountant's desk, flowers for the Manager's office, flowers for the Manager's wife, flowers for the Manager's confidante, scheduled maintainence for the aeroplane, money for necessary fees and licences, money for lease payments of the aeroplane!!

God we've come a L-O-N-G way since then......haven't we!!!:ok:

[lokione]

Push switches according to a checklist? Is this guy serious??

My point in relation to all of the above. A mythical pilot - losing his medical for some reason - could apply for any job in

Airline Marketing
Airline Dispatching
Airline Operations
Airline Flight Planning
Aircraft Loading
Aircraft Check in
Flight Attendant.............................the list goes on!

( God bless Engineers who are exempt and irreplaceable)

Could any of the above apply for the pilots' job???

Surely that says it all.

Now back to the important stuff. Who' employing pilots to keep their pax and multi million dollar airplanes unscratched????:mad:

[BYMONEK]

lokione

come on now,you know full well that many a pilot out there started his career by being a check-in agent or operations controller or in flight planning dept and of course as Cabin Crew( that's flight attendants for you Americans!).Yes,many of us were blessed with exciting jobs in Military or were sponsored by Airlines or simply started as G.A flying instructors but there are plenty of people who do 'make it' after more mundane jobs.Ironically,i think more pilots would fail to make the grade of Cabin Crew than Cabin Crew would make it as pilots,were they given the chance......we're too old,too ugly,too rude and far too intolerent.Could you imagine if we had to be polite to someone like aagg..............see,not possible!

[lokione]

I agree there are some pilots who wouldn't make the grade as cabin crew out there.

But when you say that there are plenty of them who would make good pilots if they were given the chance - that seems to imply that "anyone" can be a pilot if some mystical chance was given!

Speaking for myself - I made my own luck! I passed my own exams and flight tests. No one GAVE most of us a chance mate...we had to work bloody hard to get here and to maintain our spots.

Incidentally, at last check I wasnt too old, ugly or rude to be Cabin crew myself and it would be a great wake up call for a few of us to have a bit of work experience down the back for a change!!

I prepare to be howled down!!

:ouch:

[witchdoctor]

lokione

I'm sure you're right. All those guys who moan about how much worse it is to be a pilot than anything else clearly were rather more fortunate than most in their other jobs. Some people really do need a healthy dose of reality.

That said, yes the traditionally rather good T+C's are being eroded. Even though I'm still awaiting that first foothold in the industry, and it's been 2 years since I qualified, I won't (and can't anyway) buy my way into a position by paying for my own type rating. I frankly have more self respect. If a few more were prepared to do the same, rather than roll over and play dead for the bosses, then perhaps it might all be different.

[jetsreams]

Just to add to your note about Air India hiring 747 drivers.Their management SUCKS, pilots are overworked and grossly underpaid.Infact many of their pilots are contemplating leaving and going to other airlines.

Besides , the Indian Government does not have a clear policy on hiring foreign labour in state Owned Airlines.A definite NO for expats.

[wandrinabout]

This aagg individual has highlighted a very valid point that is one of the major obstacles that is contributing to the downward spiral that the aviating profession is facing these days. If we as a profession desire to halt or even reverse this spiral, then this issue has to be considered - how? I have no idea!!

I am spouting on about the public perception of us.

Sure, aagg is just a little person and his opinion does not matter, but importantly, his opinion is representative. If his ideas are what joe public thinks, the same joe public that travels as our customers, then we are in trouble my friends.

The days have definitely passed where we as a group are considered as 'the dashing knights of the sky', and rightly so. We are just another professional group quietly getting on with our job. The problem is that our employers have become so focused on driving down costs, that our managers (who are increasingly of the bean counting genre) resent us. We are a cost, a large cost, but a cost that they cannot do without. And this they do not like at all. The underlying theme of the last many years has been to chip away at and erode that mystique that delivered high rewards for the few. We have now become a labour unit, a cost that offsets profit. Nothing wrong with that, its reality - but its gone too far. We are despised by management in general, and our customers (who dont know any better, how could they) think like aagg.

Take the example very recently, Mr Mike O'Leary, the hero bringing air travel to the masses. Good on him, he and the others like him have created many jobs for those that may not have had the opportunity and strapped many of us into the front of a nice jet. However, his very public statement that "pilots are the most cossetted employee group" was listened to and absorbed by those same travelling masses. If he was unhindered by the regulators or unions, how far would he and others go to make his pilot group more productive? He would keep pushing, after all, pilots are expendable, there are plenty more around, they dont know how easy they have it he would say. Might be a different story when the inevitable occurs and he starts to lose jets. Likely not though, just blame the pilots.

What about on TV lately. I am seeing multiple documentaries of air disasters, good prime time viewing they are. These productions are designed for mass viewing, with their actors doing their best at cockpit reconstructions. They are not reports. How could they possibly re create the mayhem and chaos that some of these crews faced. Impossible. The crews are not always painted in a good light, sometimes unfairly and sometimes unintentionally. What does joe public think when he turns off the telly?

What about the passengers on the BA flight that flew through the volcanic ash in Indonesia, or the survivors of the Sioux City incident. I guarantee they do not think their pilots were over paid button pushers. Granted these were high profile incidents, but what of the multitude that the pax are not even aware of - they depart, they arrive, were they aware that there was a non normal going on up front? What about all the MEL dispatches. What would the pax think if they knew their big bird was not operating 100%. The boys and girls up front accept it, just get on with the job and cope, and get the pax to where they want to go, and make another dollar for the boss that possibly despises him. Common everyday occurences that aagg and his buddies know nothing of.

My apologies for rambling. But my point is - rather that slag off at aagg and the likes, we should be very concerned and aware of the common attitude out there that exists toward us.

What to do about it? I dont know.

[unwiseowl]

Whilst Pprune is a useful tool for us, I think it is also doing us serious damage. Do you see any other profession airing its dirty washing openly on the internet?

[srs what?]

My point in relation to all of the above. A mythical pilot - losing his medical for some reason - could apply for any job in

Airline Marketing
Airline Dispatching
Airline Operations
Airline Flight Planning
Aircraft Loading
Aircraft Check in
Flight Attendant.............................the list goes on!

( God bless Engineers who are exempt and irreplaceable)

Could any of the above apply for the pilots' job???

Surely that says it all.

Yes, it does say it all. It says that you have a complete lack of respect and understanding for the jobs people around you carry out and it is this attitude that you are some sort of elite group, and I'm not generalising here but unfortunately there is a very noisy minority, that earns you that lack of respect back from your ground based colleagues and Joe public. You might be in charge of the final product but don't forget without the many people on the sidelines there wouldn't be an end product for you to manage.

I work as part of a team, a team of many thousands. I don't go in for all the normal management bull*hit and buzzwords but I do believe that everyone be it Reservations, Baggage Handlers, Operations or Engineers have an equal role to play and should be treated with the same respect.

[fullforward]

Oh, Jeez!

How tiresome is to see such a waste of time in polemics more adequate to high schoolers!...

[jetjockey737]

Haven't posted for ages but this thread has triggered a bit of emotion so here goes.....

I come from a family where at least one person in the house hold is involved in aviation in one way or another. For example I am a pilot, the old man is an engineer. Despite the jibes at one another ( grease monkey...overpaid button pusher..etc,etc!) we hold a rather healthy respect for one another and our jobs.

The other halves dad is an ATCO, we too have digs at one an other but again, we hold a respect for one another and each others jobs.

Obviously I work with cabin crew, dispatchers etc on a day to day basis. 99.9% of the people I know take their job extremely seriously.

Despite the workload for everyone increasing dramatically over the past couple of years due low cost carriers, cost cutting by other airlines to stay as proffitable as possible etc...etc. I do not know anybody who has let there professional standards slip.

But what is happening, in my opinion anyway, is that management and passengers want something for nothing! Passengers want to pay 20 quid to go to alicante, but they dont want to sit on the aeroplane when they arrive there for 10 minutes waiting for a GPU to be found( due to U/S APU). The problem is that due to the fact that they have paid 20 quid for a ticket, the airlines are pushing the handling agents to provide more service for less money. So they keep staffing levels the same, despite the fact that the amount of traffic they are dealing with has doubled. These people are only human and they cannot be in two places at the same time.So we are left with the scenario of passengers sitting on aeroplane, engines running(with no understanding of how an aeroplane works) waiting to get off. They then start blaming the people in the front line...us!!!

The public deem the circumstances above as unproffesional, and start treating the front line troops as unproffesional. Thus enabling the likes of that p***k that posted earlier, to say what he said.

I am proud to be an airline pilot as I know the exacting standards that I have to meet everyday. I am also fed up of being an airline pilot because of the amount of rubbish I have to deal with on a day to day basis. The amount of mistakes,made by somebody sat behind a desk, that I have to rectify!
The fact that my roster is published as close to legal maximum as possible every month, means that I am constantly having to check that my changes are not illegal duties. As somebody else said earlier there is nobody to cover our arses when it goes wrong....That is why I get paid 50 grand a year!!!

I have sold cars, vacuum cleaners, clothes. Worked in an office and in the open air. None of those jobs was as rewarding as this CAREER that I have dreamt of since I was five.

BUT the dumbing down of the airline industry has been brought about by this something for nothing culture. The next time joe public is sat on an aeroplane winging because their flight is delayed because a member of crew has gone out hours and they have got to wait 2 hours for a replacement. They should remember that if they were prepared to pay a reasonable amount for their ticket, then the company wouldn't be trying to work to such tight margins and their flight may have gone on time!!

I couldn't care less if somebody calls me a glorified bus driver, what I do care about is the fact that we, as proffessionals,have been kicked so much by unproffessionals......that we actually give a s**t about comments like that.!!!!

I am too tired to re read what I have typed and I apologise if it is c**p, but I do feel much better and I hope that I have got my point across!!

Good night!

:uhoh:

[asianaav8r]

To add to the list of Airlines needing pilots in the not too distant future:

1) Asiana - B744 and B777
2) Korean Air - B737NG, B744 and B777
3) Air China - B744 and B777

I'm sure there will be more mainland China airlines who will start to recruit shortly. Contact the agencies if your interested.

And there's always Air Atlanta - but their pay package sucks!

[lokione]

Couldnt have said it better JJ 737. That sums it up entirely.

srs what ......................... careful what you say mate. I have been in all those positions myself in the past and can assure you that I have no lack of respect for anyone of them. But the weight of responsibility of lives rests on the pilots shoulders in addition to carrying out their normal duties. It is a large burden to bear which is not born by any of those aforementioned taskers! I stand by my comments completely.

I apologise to those that wish to simply return to who the hell is employing!!

So - Anyone got any info on Air Japan and their Hawaii jobs? I believe a green card is required??

Cheers Loki

[timzsta]

JJ 737 you hit the nail squarely on the head. I spent two years working at STN whilst I was Distance Learning. The second year was as a Dispatcher and it was readily apparent to me that there was no money in Ground Handling anymore. Not enough staff could be taken on to handle the flights - its a cut throat business out there.

It was not uncommon in the peak evening rush to be dispatching two or sumtimes three flights at once. It was not uncommon for the dispatcher to have to assist with boarding control as we had a shortage of gate staff. Check in closing late because of shortage of check in staff. But everyone did the job professionally and during summer 2004 Stansted was Air Berlin's best performing outstation in terms of percentage of delays that were attributed to the handling agent.

But sadly airline management and passengers are sumtimes all too unaware of the lengths people go to in order to get the aeroplane away on time. When your soaked to the skin on a freezing winters morning in the driving rain, dispatching two aircraft at once, rarely on stands near each other, for £5 an hour.

When I finish my CPL / IR shortly one thing I will not be doing is going back to that kind of job for that kind of money. Been there, ticked the box, learnt the lessons.

[judge11]

timzsta

Please, please reassure me that you really do know how to spell 'sometimes' and that the version in your post is either a joke or some sort of 'text speak' included to enlighten the older readers.

[Ignition Override]

If true overseas, it must inspire optimism-but it won't happen for many years in the US. And don't assume that US Part 121 airlines have not hired lots of pilots who are from other countries, i.e., Germany, France, South Africa, Canada, Israel, Netherlands.

By the way, many pilots here have paid for their own training in a Saab 340, Brasilia, CRJ, etc, and and as part of a certain "deal" to tentatively work for a regional company, they all received no type rating. This training took place years ago in the left seat.

If such desperate pilots are available "over there", can borrow piles of cash, and can move anywhere, speak whatever language, then don't expect salaries to go up. :oh:

[Zones]

Sorry to stay off the main subject of this thread, and continue with the issue of whether pilots are ‘overpaid button pushers’, their respective position within the aviation community, and how this has changed over the years… None of what I have to say is rocket science, just pointing out some truths that are my explanation for where the pilot now stands in this world….

(As a quick aside, so you know where I’m coming from and don’t take me the wrong way: I’ve recently left the aviation game to work for myself in property. And I’m doing very nicely for myself now, both financially and job satisfaction-wise – much better off than before, which is sad, cause I love the business… and yes, I miss the buzz, and hence my continued involvement with likes of pprune as a means of keeping in touch. I was not a pilot, but worked closely with many areas of the game, including airline management, aircraft leasing and even ATC. However, my father is a recently retired B744 pilot, my father-in-law a recently retired A330 pilot, my wife ex cabin crew, and my bro-in-law currently a B777 jock. So I have a reasonable insight to many different aspects of the game.)

The airline industry itself has changed, and it is perhaps this that has caused the erosion of the t’s & c’s as well as the generalised lowered perception of the professionalism of the pilot. With de-regulation and international expansion / integration of societies, there are many more airlines, flying many more a/c and many more pax, to many more destinations worldwide. This has created both relatively speaking many more pilots (which makes them much more common to meet in society, and hence less ‘glam’ and all that goes with it), as well as many more that are either ‘regular’ flyers (up to say, 5 flights per year) as well as many more that are ‘frequent’ flyers (up to say 200+ flights per year). How often do you meet someone who hasn’t flown at least one round trip these days? TV & film has many ‘fly on the wall’ programmes, disaster recreations, and general news items all concentrated solely at the airline business.

So this may explain the latter issue of perception, but the t’s & c’s thing is a result of demand and supply for pilots as a job, as well as for air travel itself.

I grew up with the pilot t’s & c’s at their best. My family were well looked after in all respects. But over the years this changed along with the change in the business. My fathers colleagues were working for much less $$$ than him at the same job, and all the benefits were being eroded each year. The same true across the board, even for non pilots too. The actual work of flying the a/c hasn’t changed too much istelf. You still have the huge responsibility for the magic safety element, but certainly the equipment is much easier for you to use, even if not perfect in design. Pilots also fly more often than they did, ie work harder for the same (or in many/most cases, lower) buck earnt.

There are many many guys & gals out there, who grew up looking up at the glam pilot, who are now wannabees. I was one myself, till medical ruled me out. And whilst there are indeed many more pilot jobs, supply has not kept up with demand. Hence management has been able to chip away.

Combine this with the effects of re-regulated competition and more recently latest wave of LC carriers, and the drive to minimise fares, this has created an even stronger pressure on costs, and inevitably on pilot t’s & c’s.

Unfortunately most management approaches to reducing t’s & c’s quite often seem to lack, either deliberately or not, any sense of either proportion or appropriateness.

Maybe now, and getting back to the thread’s original subject, the worm may be turning slightly… less pilot wannabees, and more airlines needing more a/c needing more pilots…???

Even so I doubt we’ll see the heady days that I witnessed as I grew up! But the same is true for ALL in aviation, pilots, cabin crew, engineers, ground handling, even management themselves! Such a shame….

[desert_knight]

What a strange collection of people Pilots would seem to be.

We have a huge number here busy telling us it's a cr@p job but the moment somebody who is not a pilot tells them the same thing they get very defensive and call them a "wanna be". A "wanna be" what? in a cr@p job?? you can't have it both ways!

Then we have the argument that their job is more important than anybody elses because they fly high up, risk their lives and are responsible for many more if something goes wrong. Is it really anymore dangerous than a coach driver driving across Europe- also with the lives of many passengers in his hands? In fact, I thought Aviation was the SAFEST form of transport, so Pilots are probably in a LESS risky position.

They then wll tell you it's difficult and that others wouldn't have the skill even given the chance......

But when you say that there are plenty of them who would make good pilots if they were given the chance - that seems to imply that "anyone" can be a pilot if some mystical chance was given!

I'm pretty sure that most could. I know what's involved and it ain't that difficult.

You are also not the only group of people who have to work difficult hours and go away from family for long periods.

The World is a tough old place to work for nearly everyone. Times have changed for us all, why should it be any different for a select group called Pilots?

Even with a possible increased requirement for Flight Crew in the next few years, Terms and Conditions are never going to be what they were in the Glory years, get used to it!

[Dogma]

desert_knight,

What are you prattling on about?

Being a Pilot is all about professional standards, risk management and being remunerated appropriately.

Parallels with being a coach driver are spurious and not valid. I can assure you if I did not have my current excellent career as a Pilot, I would have most likely been a fund manager in the City or a barrister, not a "coach driver"
:ok:

[desert_knight]

Being a Pilot is all about professional standards, risk management and being remunerated appropriately

The same applies to many jobs. The argument that Pilots are unique and should therefore be remunerated at a much higher level is also spurious.

:ok:

[Dogma]

"The same applies to many jobs. The argument that Pilots are unique and should therefore be remunerated at a much higher level is also spurious."

It’s not what the underwriters of insurance think. The association stated, " Airline Pilots are given corporate asset responsibility to the extent that their actions and failings alone would bring down even the largest of listed companies"

Pretty conclusive, probably why I get paid as well as I does. Innit

[christn]

What amazes me is the number of pratts like Ms. desert_knight who seem to have nothing better to do than invade our professional forum and then criticize us!

I wonder if Lawyers, Architects etc have similar problems with frustrated wannabes?

[desert_knight]

Christn

Usually I just quietly observe, on the whole no help is required in your "professional forum", you seem to manage more than enough critisism of others without any need for input from me.

I have been in aviation for the past 26 years and while often frustrated, I am not a wannabe anything.

If you wish to call me names, please use the correct title of Mr.

Dogma

probably why I get paid as well as I does. Innit

Nice to hear you are happy with your lot, one of the few in this forum it would seem. ;)

[christn]

You are quite right; I should have said '.....pratts like MR desert_knight'!

[RJ_Driver]

Gentlemen,

Please let this Desert_Knight say his peace. He assumes to know all there is about our profession, yet has never actually flown for an airline… so he will never know. We (those who actually fly for a living) all know what it took to get here and that we are in a brotherhood; with that knowledge comes certain ego. I have met many who say that it must be easy to become a “pilot.” It is… but we are “Professional Pilots” and there is a difference. Those who understand this statement need no additional clarification.

Desert_Knight, enjoy all things that you have earned… I know I do.

JLT

[jetjockey737]

As a PROFFESIONAL pilot, i do not think I am any more important than anyone else. BUT i am a proffesional!!! Mr Desert Knight, as you seem to have the ability to do my job, would you please enlighten me as to your JOB, so that I can tell you whether I could do your job aswell as you could do mine....go on, dont be scared, we are all friends here!

[desert_knight]

Sure, JJ737

I am a Flight Simulator Engineer for an International Airline.

I like Pilots, work with them all the time, just that some moan too much about too little.

;)

[Pontius P]

desert_knight, I've been a pilot for 40 years, and I agree that we have too many whingers amongst our ranks. Having said that, there are many more that enjoy what they are doing, and seldom complain (at least, not in public). I think that many have unrealistic expectations about what the job entails when they start, and are then disappointed when they discover otherwise.
By the way, if you can find a coach that carries over 350 people, please let me know. Perhaps those who drive it also have 2 medicals, 16 hours in a simulator, and a line check every year. They may also have a few hours of first aid, technical refreshers, emergencies, CRM etc. but somehow I doubt it. If our jobs are comparable, why do we need a blood/alcohol limit 4 times lower than theirs?
The comment that "Airline Pilots are given corporate asset responsibility to the extent that their actions and failings alone would bring down even the largest of listed companies" says it all, I think. Perhaps if a few more company MDs realised this, and treated their pilots accordingly, there might be a few less whingers.

[Kaptin M]

I've seen a couple of sim techs hop into the sim & fly it "perfectly", inputting a set body angle and power setting and holding them, regardless of what the sim was doing at the time, so that it eventually reached the desired speed and attitude.
Nothing to it at all, and I guess that that is one of the secrets we pilots should be told as early on in our careers as possible - the "box" is NOT an aeroplane.

Having said that I wonder why more sim instructors and techs don't/can't make pilot?I know what's involved and it ain't that difficult.
Obviously there's nothing much to it, and the demand NOW is only going to get greater.]
C'mon all of you guys who tell us how easy it is - right now is YOUR chance to qualify as a glorified 'bus driver, and to score one of the many jobs on offer.

You're already streets ahead with your obvious ability, d_k, come on up and join us :ok:

[TheNightOwl]

It's not pilots who need to be told the sim is not an aeroplane, Kap, it's the CC's doing the checking. For too long in my 41 years in aviation I watched simulators being used as "traps" instead of the high-tech learning-tool they were designed to be. This attitude was VERY prevalent in the military world, but I also found it to a slightly lesser degree in civilian life. Yes, I can fly a sim, very well as it happens, but there is no way I'd consider taking a big Boeing or Airbus aloft without the level of training I've seen Tech. Crews go through. I used to be able to fly Phantom/Harrier/Jaguar sims as well, but the idea of flying the aeroplane is laughable. They are training aids, nothing more, although very valuable tools when properly used.
I haven't read ALL the previous posts, but I'm here to tell you that ANYONE who believes that his experience as a Simtech qualifies him to the same degree as an ATPL pilot has his head up his fundamental orifice! What he/she will have is a better understanding of what is happening in a sim at any given time, since he/she will have been instrumental in programming the thing, but that knowledge does NOT translate automatically into manual skills in the air! Having said that, I must tell you that a question I was repeatedly asked by visitors was "would you manage to get the aircraft down if something happened to the pilots"? My answer was invariably "I'd have a better chance of a safe landing then you, since I know the aircraft systems better than you"!!

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[Farrell]

Mr. Desert Knight......

If you have a look through the forum again, with a different eye, I think you'll find that there is indeed a lot of moaning, self-righteousness and useless drivvle coming from SOME users......

however, it would appear to be coming from the SAME users constantly - they just take up a lot more hard disk space than those who only speak when it's really necessary - like to offer advice or be constructive.......

And if they really p*ss you off - you can add them to your ignore list and they need never darken your desktop again!

....just a thought! ;)

[JW411]

I never cease to be amazed at how many so-called PROFESSIONALS out there cannot even spell the word!

[jetjockey737]

Sorry about the spelling, just done four sectors and a bottle of wine. I am a professionally poor speller...I admit it.

[AA717driver]

I got into a tiff with a management type on another board recently and finally explained the situation like this:

Pilots and bean-counters(and most other types, I'm coming to realize) will never understand each other. We come from a world where everything is constantly changing. No two flights are exactly the same--in fact, if you break each flight down to it's smallest detail, there are innumerable and often large differences between seemingly identical days.

The rest of the world spends its day making sure all the columns line up and all the boxes are checked. Day after day. Seemingly large and innumerable differences in the day-to-day job are actually non-existant.

The phrase "Same $hit, different day" wasn't coined by a pilot.

I doubt the non-pilots out there will ever REALLY understand us and I'm pretty sure, we'll never REALLY understand them.TC

P.S.--re: the button pushing issue. I always hand fly my approaches whether it's a 767, 717 or, now, a GV. And, I usually turn the FD off outside the marker. So there!:p

[desert_knight]

Gentlemen,

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement to become Flight Crew, however, I love my job, the diversity and challenge it offers me and I have no desire to become a Pilot. This might come as a shock to some members of this Forum who seem to believe there are only two types who log on, Pilots or Wannabes. Two of my former colleagues did decide to take the Flight Crew path and are doing just fine.

Todays modern Full Flight Simulator has no doubt taken many of you from one aircraft type to the next without the need for training on the actual aeroplane before revenue flight. They are known as 'zero flight time' and have been qualified by the FAA/CAA as capable of doing so. Boeing and Airbus spend many, many hours and millions of dollars to collect the data and design the models that make such fidelity possible. The main area it lacks real world fidelity is the motion systems ability to simulate sustained G. These devices are a far cry from the type you refer to TheNight Owl.

Does being able to fly the Simulator make me a qualified Pilot? Of course not, flying is just one small part of the job.
Do I believe I would be able to fly and land a B777, A330 or similar type (either manually or with automatics)? Absolutely I do!
Can I program the FMS/FMGEC? Yes
Can I follow ECAM/EICAS or QRH actions? Yes
Can I follow Flt. Directors, PFD ILS information, VLAs? Yes

As a Simulator Engineer the above is a prerequisite of the job, how else can we verify Training Crew write ups?
In fact, many of the write ups we receive actually stem from the Flight Crews misunderstanding of how the Aircraft Systems will behave in certain situations. This is not a critisism of the Flight crew, modern aircraft are extremely complex.

Do I believe that JJ737 can do my job? Of course, after training for a couple of years he should be a productive junior member of the team.

Anyway, this is way off topic so I better shut up!

Good luck to one and all in finding positions with the Airline of your choice....but once there, do not come back on here and moan about how tough it is and how much your are underpaid!


;)

[Dogma]

Fair enough.

But, with training now costing £60 000+ to land a job in the right hand seat of a jet. We have every right to strive to achieve the best return on our investment.

P.S Nothing replicates the smell of fear of being out there on the darkest of dirty nights with very limited options! :E

[RJ_Driver]

Desert_Knight…

Have you even flown an aircraft where your life was REALLY at risk? It throws some unexpected variables into the equation (human reaction/interaction only one small aspect of.) The box can only produce the outcomes it is programmed to albeit fairly comprehensive thanks to yourself and others; I can not however say the same for the actual aircraft… ie: unforeseen structural changes in a fluid environment aka catastrophic systemic damage. The desired reaction to which comes after many years of command experience in actual aircraft… not a machine safely situated on terra firma.

You can always walk out of the box.

JLT

[Pirate]

A bit of thread creep here, ladies and gentlemen. Topic is airlines looking for pilots!

[TheNightOwl]

At risk of incurring the wrath of those opposed to thread creep, may I indulge myself a little longer in order to reply to desert-knight's arrogance.
I have to agree with the bulk of your post, and add that, just as you cannot fully understand the ramifications of all that happens in the air, no pilot fully understands the complexity of the modern FFS. The point surely is that NEITHER of you NEEDS complete understanding of the other's occupation in order to carry out your own. I loved what I did, and had no desire to be a full-time pilot, all the flying I wish to do is to get me from A to B, safely, on the rare occasion that I wish to travel.
What I find arrogant about your post is your dismissal of my experience in your comment "...these devices are a far cry from the type you refer to". Apart from my RAF experience on Phantom/Harrier/Jaguar, since I came to Oz I have been trained and employed on the following FFSs: B727/B737/B767/A320/BAe146/SAAB340/METRO and CRJ, hardly worthy of your dismissive tones! I, like yourself, am experienced in the rectification of FFS, and also, as a Shift Controller, had responsibility for the running of Fidelity Checks as well as the interpretation of the results.
No pilot could step in and do your job, in all truth I can't imagine any pilot even attempting it! On the other side of the same coin, I do NOT believe that your experience in simulation has fitted you for a job as a pilot, there is a world of difference in being at FL410 when the world turns to s**t, and being in a simulator with the knowledge that all you have to do is press the "T/O RESET" button and all is well again, with NO threat to yourself or passengers reliant on your skills. BULL****, my friend - stay where you are and enjoy what you do.
The argument about whether pilots' work is tough, and whether they are underpaid is better left to those really in the know!

Edited for spelling!!

Kind regards,

TheNightOwl.:ok:

[desert_knight]

Gentlemen,

Once again, I am confused.
I can not however say the same for the actual aircraft… ie: unforeseen structural changes in a fluid environment aka catastrophic systemic damage. The desired reaction to which comes after many years of command experience in actual aircraft… not a machine safely situated on terra firma.
How many in this forum assume that they would also be able to cope in such conditions and based on what??

Training in a Simulator!

I suspect that the number of Pilots in this forum who have encountered an engine fialure or any other life threatening event in an aircraft could be counted on one hand.

You all assume you will cope based on the training and practise carried out in the 'box'. Sometimes people will, sometimes they will not - for example the east Midlands accident.

TheNight Owl,
I wasn't being dismissive of your experience, merely pointing out that the older military Simulators you metioned do not compare to more recent civil simulators and were never designed to do the same type of training - I also worked on them!

[Dixons Cider]

desert knight, you hero - pull your head in. There is no way you are gonna convince pilots with your view of things, and you are obviously carrying the burden of a big chip on your shoulder...
- so bugger off and go fix a sim like you are supposed to

And before you use the age old and worn out unproffessionalism angle, let me say I am just sick of the drivel.

Lets get back to the thread

(not edited for spelling!!)

Dixon has spoken

[Pirate]

Desert Knight

"I suspect that the number of Pilots in this forum who have encountered an engine fialure or any other life threatening event in an aircraft could be counted on one hand."

I've had three situations leading to an engine shutdown (on two-engine aircraft). Perhaps the cobbler should stick to his last.

[RJ_Driver]

desert_knight:

Once again, you are losing sight of the point. Please re-read my words which you found so convenient to quote, yet not comprehend. The term “unforeseen structural changes” means just that… unforeseen, hence an aerodynamic reaction is not accounted for by the engineer/programmer. We are not discussing simple issues of engine failure or similar problems. Any pilot worth his salt can handle that issue with little concern for the outcome. (And please refrain from quoting me out of context, thank you in advance.) There are a number of changes that can occur which will alter the handling of the aircraft in a way which no engineer/programmer can forecast with the intent to reproduce (ie: non-contained explosive engine failures resulting in additional aerodynamic damages.)

Non pilots all think alike… engine failure is the worst possible scenario. I regret to inform you but there are far worse things that can go wrong. As for the training (specifically “the box”) it does indeed have its place, a very important one. However, the point you missed is that command experience in REAL aircraft, with consequences for your actions (ie: death) places an altogether new variable in the equation; one which can never be produced in a simulator. Debate this as long as you wish, but until you do it for a living you will never fully comprehend the previous statement.

As for your created statistic of a handful of pilots… be careful – there are a lot of very, very experienced pilots on this board who have seen a lot more than you know. I myself have had 3 of the previously discussed “issues” at various points in my career. How many fingers on your hand are left now?

[desert_knight]

OK, OK I stand corrected!

I am off back to the Simulator to stare in awe and wonder at this group called Pilots and the feats that only they can perform in a cockpit.

Come to think about it, I better get some Staff Travel in quickly as to replace such people will clearly not be possible and airline travel will soon be a thing of the past. :eek:

Now back to the thread topic - AIRLINES LOOKING FOR PILOTS

END

:ok:

[Dogma]

D_K

END???

Not likely...... Read the book Fate Is The Hunter by E Gann. Then you may have, just a concept of what is involved.

I have never felt like calling for my Mother in a "simulator", I wish I could say the same about my years flying the Heavy Metal itself.:}

[Ignition Override]

Page 5 was interesting:D

I never knew that our simulators could simulate many other planes in the sky, numerous blocked radio calls from Tower/Departure/Enroute/Approach controllers, or have unpredictable (non-programmed) weather.

How about systems malfunctions which don't fit into any pre-labeled category? A sudden light on for "rudder control manual" with a right hydr pressure low light, then two seconds later all normal, as we do the Descent Checklist with calls from ATC to slow to 250? How about the stretched aircraft series, which wants to mush through the "flair", even with 5-8 knots of extra approach speed? Gusting, unpredictable winds? Winds which are actually from the opposite direction than what was just now reported by the fancy new automated airport devices (that caught SAT Tower off-guard: "change active to 30L...")? Unforecast thunderstorms blossoming quickly while we have no fuel for an alternate airport.

These are just a few simulator features which are brand new to me, never mind some pressure to try to be on schedule for the fifth short leg in a 12-hour duty period with heavy traffic over Michigan, following eight hours in a hotel. Airlines aren't as concerned about adequate ground staffing to avoid a delay-but they do need a scapegoat (the pilots are often written up, if it is plausible). As always, no automation onboard, except to hold altitude (cruise speed about 440 KTAS/.76m). For the B-757 crew over northwest Canada at about 0200 in the depths ofwinter, they smelled something burning (didn't know it was in the galley oven). Where do you divert to?

Our only substitute is years of experience "flying the line". Not Microsoft, not even 100 hours with a Line Check Airman and FMC/MCP/LNAV/VNAV/autothrottles nor with an ECAM, MCDU and short "joystick", or met forecast/clearway design theory...:uhoh:

[Dale Harris]

Perhaps you might like to ask how well the simulator training prepared the crew of the Sioux City DC-10 for their "real world" excursion Mr Knight? A failure not even contemplated by the designers or airworthiness authorities. Human resourcefulness, and plain experience can sometimes not be measured by a machine. Each side of the argument has validity. Can you land a 747 or 777? Maybe. But to simply assume you can replace someone experienced when the machine and conditions are at their worst? I think not. Especially when it is your own life in question.

[unwiseowl]

You may also find a need to communicate simultaneously with F/O, F/E, fire service, cabin crew, ATC and passengers more than a little distracting during an emergency!

[desert_knight]

Gentlemen,

You force me to keep this thread off topic for a little longer!

But to simply assume you can replace someone experienced when the machine and conditions are at their worst? I think not. Especially when it is your own life in question.

I never claimed to be able to do any such thing! I merly asserted that I felt I would be able to fly and land a transport aircraft - something I stand by.

There are those on this board with many years of experience that also would fail this test 'when the machine and conditions are at their worst' if called upon - many aircraft accidents (Kegworth for example) are testament to the fact that none of us will know how we will cope when in a given situation.

Ignition Override,

These are just a few simulator features which are brand new to me

Most of those are not at all difficult to simulate, we already have many of them available.
TCAS scenarios of different types available, conflicting traffic, runway incursions.
Weather can be made to do whatever the instructor wants at any time.
Windshears, microbursts, gusting winds - all available.
etc, etc.

Dogma,


I have never felt like calling for my Mother in a "simulator", I wish I could say the same about my years flying the Heavy Metal itself

Your fear of flying seems somewhat irrational, you are statistically far more likely to come to harm driving to the airport! Your skill as a pilot, combined with those who support you to get in the air, should keep you from serious harm. :}

[Dogma]

"Your fear of flying seems somewhat irrational, you are statistically far more likely to come to harm driving to the airport! Your skill as a pilot, combined with those who support you to get in the air, should keep you from serious harm."

My dear fellow, there in lays the problem! Your lack of appreciation of the "real world" issues that pilots have to deal with on a daily basis is astounding.

"Can I program the FMS/FMGEC? Yes
Can I follow ECAM/EICAS or QRH actions? Yes
Can I follow Flt. Directors, PFD ILS information, VLAs? Yes"


At first I though you were having a bit of a laugh, but.....no. I can assure you, being a one trick pony who can fly the sim does not equate to; daily flying "the line" into some of the worlds most demanding airfields!


They don't pay me 100k+ p.a for nothing! If you had worked a little harder at school you could be too.:ok:

[BYMONEK]

Dogma

If you hadn't been such a clever,hard worker at school,you might have ended up like 2 friends of mine who both left school with only 2 'o'levels each................running their own Company and retired before 40,earning CONSIDERABLY more than your £100k a year.One of them spends that annually on holidays alone,so grow up and don't be such a pompous:mad:

[fhchiang]

LOOKS like good news for me who is going to do Intergrated ATPL in a year's time.......




!!!!!

[Dogma]

BYMONEK,

The comment was for D_K's benefit. But, congrats to your two mates, being an entrepreneur is tough! Mind you given my s:mad:t "O Levels" maybe I should have given my own business a try!

[desert_knight]

Dogma, a comment just for me? I didn't know you cared :D

Anyway, if I had worked a little harder at school I would have been an airline beancounter :ok:

[Min Drag]

Gentlemen and others,

I have been monitoring this thread for some time now genuinely interested in the original topic - unfortunately I appear to have been wasting my time.

Can anyone out there throw some light on the latest employment opportunities and steer this thread back on its original course and away from this total bo**ox :\

MD

[Kaptin M]

These are from the website of just one of the recruiting agencies.

Funny how we keep hearing there's an "oversupply" of pilots :p

16/12/2004 L10-11 Captains
2 Months Mid East
16/12/2004 Saab2000 Crews
3 months Stockholm
16/12/2004 BAe-146 First Officer...
12 Months Europe
15/12/2004 B737e Captains
6 Months UK
15/12/2004 B737e First Officers
6 Months UK
15/12/2004 A320 Type Rating Examiner...
3 Years (Renewable) Vietnam
15/12/2004 A320 Captains
2 Years Renewable Asia
15/12/2004 A330 Captains
2 Years (Renewable) Asia
10/12/2004 B747 Type Rating / First ...
1 year with possible exte... Europe
9/12/2004 A300B4 Crews
4 months Taiwan & Philippines
9/12/2004 B747 Classic First Office...
3 1/2 years San Francisco / New York ...
9/12/2004 Dash 8-Q400 First Officer...
3 1/2 Years Japan
9/12/2004 Dash 8-Q400 Captains - Ra...
3 1/2 Years Japan
7/12/2004 B767 First Officers
10 Months Vietnam
3/12/2004 B737e / B737NG Sim Instru...
Ad Hoc UK
3/12/2004 B767 Captains
2 Years (Renewable) Asia
3/12/2004 A300-600 / A310 Captains...
1 Year UAE / Sri Lanka
3/12/2004 A300-600/A310 First Offic...
1 Year United Arab Emirates / Sr...
3/12/2004 A320 Captains
1 year, with possible per... Asia
29/11/2004 B747-200 SFI
5 months approx. Europe
29/11/2004 B737e/NG First Officers,...
6 Months (renewable) Marrakech & Agadir
29/11/2004 B737e/NG Captains for Roy...
6 Months (Renewable) Marrakech & Agadir
22/11/2004 A300-B4 Crews
4 months Asia
18/11/2004 Bae Jetstream-31 Captains...
6 Months Europe
18/11/2004 Bae Jetstream-31 First Of...
6 months Europe
12/11/2004 B737-400 Captains
3 years (Renewable) Japan
21/10/2004 A320 First Officers, Viet...
3 Years Vietnam
22/9/2004 B767 Rated / Non-Rated Fi...
5 Years Tokyo, Japan

[PK-KAR]

We have a huge number here busy telling us it's a cr@p job but the moment somebody who is not a pilot tells them the same thing they get very defensive and call them a "wanna be". A "wanna be" what? in a cr@p job?? you can't have it both ways!

Hey it's the same for EVERY job! the grass is ALWAYS greener on the other side!

Just reading the mess that was on FFS and flying...

Here's a briefer... applies to probably >99% (wild guess) of abnormals in real life.

1. If you can't do it in the FFS, U won't be able to do it in real flight.
2. If you can do it in the FFS, U might still not be able to do it in real life...

Desert Knight,

Try this...
Climb out on prop in foreign airspace with no more than US$40 amongst the 4 of you on board because someone screwed up the funds transfer. You're cleared to climb with a descending jet on a collision course but there's no way of knowing since you nor the jet is TCAS equipped, and you got an ATC calling altitude checks every 30 seconds when suddenly someone at the back saw your tank cap flew off... you have 30 seconds to do the following:
1. stop climb without spewing the fuel out.
2. make an emergency call
3. get a visual on the descending jet.
4. ensure ATC gets the message and stops the other jet's descend, if not repeat.

why 30 seconds? Well, 30 seconds after the first alarm, the jet appeared 1000ft above me <3NM... had he continued descent, his wake would have killed us or spewed all the fuel out... excessive imbalance danger.

Then, spend the next 5 minutes explaining to the ATC delicately that you request to return to your departing airfield due to your emergency despite the fact that there are nearer airport with better facility... Yet landing at those airports would have costed >40USD, and no money to buy additional fuel!

Now, can the simulator train you for this?
Can the simulator train your ear to hear cracking noises of a fatigued wing spar?
Can it simulate the fear of death? Well, maybe if you have a requirement of making zero errors (even the irrelevant ones) otherwise you'd be permanently banned from flying anywhere in the world, then it could come close :D

Sure, I've had serious fun on the simulator, even doing loss of both hydraulic systems one by one, then engine fire... on the 732 with the old MCP... I probably went through most of the abnormal procs with flying colours... BUT....

I to this day dare not say I can land the 732... the most I'll come to is that it's worth the shot if there is no other choice... However, if *God forbids* U or me ever get into the situation... just pray the aircraft is in tact, A/P still on, NAVs have just been recently calibrated, Autoapproach capability(autoland better :D ), auto throttle present and working, GOOD WEATHER, and can still remember the right prayers ! :P U know why? U'll need it no matter how many hrs on the FFS U have...

Now I think the right attitude for you would be like NightOwl said... I'd have a better chance of a safe landing then you, since I know the aircraft systems better than you... No MORE...

Are pilots overpaid button pushers? Well, buttons can fail... even if pilots are button pushers, they make their money by knowing what to do when those buttons fail :D

Now airlines looking for pilots? Try the new (and old) 320 operators out of Singapore... and oh yeah, "the usual middle eastern airlines" like Emirates, Etihad, Qatar... but timing's crucial...

[svante]

Went to buy a x-mas tree and on the radio news I was informed that LH were to hire massive amounts of pilots and CA´s. Any knows anything more about this?

[A-3TWENTY]

As most of the jobs are quoted in dolar it will hard to convince pilots from Europe to Asia or somewhere else.

Euro is 35% stronger.They wil have to pay a lot to convince me that living on that shi*** China or else is worthwhile...

For the europeans.....better to stay at home...




;) ;) ;) ;)

[Miss Aviator]

First off I'd like to say that I'm glad there are so many currently employed senior pilots on this forum for people like myself to get information from.

Also, as this is the wannabe forum section, I feel that I have a right to say what I think here.

I am in no way comparable to a pilot with more hours and experience than I have and yet I still feel that anyone can do what I did i.e. become a pilot -- just get a line of credit, study for a while, pass some tests, and voila you too can be a CPL/IR even a flight instructor for god's sake! It's not right. (For the record: even I have experienced an inflight emergency -- not just a pan pan!)
I have people that think "wow a pilot" and I just think that they too can become a pilot.

HOWEVER, a big however, not everyone is cut out to deal with an ever changing environment as well as dealing with the multitude of life threatening emergencies that can occur (that no box could prepare you for) and no amount of academic schooling or having the best marks will get you through that situation. It's hit and miss.. either you have it in you or you don't. As I don't know what the complex aircraft are all about I'm happy learning what I'm learning now and hope that I can one day be appreciated for a job well done -- of course some pay & holidays wouldn't hurt either.

Just incase someone out there who's not a pilot wishes to shoot me down... trust me, I don't think I'm special. I believe that it was mostly luck that I survived -- my decision making skills were next to none in those slow motion minutes so I don't know if I'm truly cut out for it. I just know that I still love it. Like I said anyone can become a pilot but can anyone become an old pilot.

I have deep respect for every old pilot out there and I'd love to be able to hangar fly a bit and shoot the s^^t.

... and now back to the thread that is way over my head, but still in the wannabe section, for pilot jobs in the airlines...

Regards :D :ok:

[spudskier]

Maybe the 600 000 private pilots in the USA will get desent jobs soon !!?

I would kill for an airline job in Europe, graduating college in March with an FAA Multi Instrument Commercial with Flight instruction cert as well... only 400ish total hours though :{