Plane debris found off Sunshine Coast

[Time Out]

This doesn't sound too good.....

Plane debris found off Sunshine Coast
A search off Queensland's Sunshine Coast has recovered debris from an overnight plane crash.

But there is still no sign of the pilot, who was flying from Cobar in western New South Wales to Caloundra.

An overnight search resulted in some wreckage being recovered but there's been no sign of the fuselage or the pilot, who is believed to be a Sunshine Coast resident.

He was the sole occupant of the plane.

The plane went down in ideal flying conditions about two kilometres east of Point Cartwright, shortly after 8pm (AEST) yesterday.

Two helicopters and divers from the Brisbane water police joined the search this morning.


source (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200408/s1177105.htm)

[romansandal]

More bad news. It's been a bad couple of weeks for Australian aviation. These things come in threes hopefully.:(

[Sunfish]

"ideal conditions" but flying at night? Sounds like maybe we lost our horizon.

[Natit]

Do you work for the ATSB sunfish? :rolleyes:

How bout we leave it to the pros eh?

[The Bullwinkle]

Sunfish
You have a lot to learn.

[Scanrate]

Sunfish

Pull your head in sunshine. After reading the post : Any new students out there? You have made my blood boil even more:yuk:

[Binoculars]

Sunfish, the replies to your post, while ego denting, may provide you with a lesson more worthwhile than anything you've learned in your 8 hours so far. If you're going to show off your knowledge, do it in the bar of the pub where you might just impress somebody, not in a forum where there are hundreds people who have made or are still making a whole career out of aviation.

There's a lot of rough heads in here, my friend, and a lot of them are only too willing to rip the head off a newcomer. I suggest you don't poke it out too far for a while! :ooh:

[rearwhelsteer888]

How's this punters Getup?
Obviously an instant expert,wise words from bino,low profile for a while chief,at least until you've got those 30kt crosswind landings down pat.
mmmmmmmmmmmmhmmmmmmhm.
RWS888:E

[grrowler]

What's with all the young gimps out there these days!? Lately we've seen sunfish, Capt J, and that 89 clown posting incredible amounts of :mad:
As ppl have already said, ask questions, read n learn, but don't pretend you're an expert just because you've read the first 3 chapters of Trevor T's GFPT book!

[ginjockey]

You know, I can't see where Sunfish made any definitive claim as to the cause of the crash. What he did do was make a reasonable suggestion as to what may have caused it. A SUGGESTION!! However, you CPL "experts" who all think you are superior to any ppl just because you have a casual job flying the odd scenic in a thirty year old cessna attack him like hyenas.
This is a typical example of halfwit CPL's trying to bully some new guy.
For example, I read all the unfounded half arsed suggestions from "expert" CPL's as to why the Air Ngukkur chierftain crashed in Darwin last week and that was all OK. Blokes with no knowledge of the crash said it was fuel tank mismanagement, not enough fuel, this and that and yet Sunfish makes a reasonable comment and is hacked to death.
You blokes seriously need to get a life. Wake up to yourselves o half wits.

Gin.

[NAMPS]

Pilot buzzed home then vanished
By Glenis Green
August 17, 2004

WHEN Barry Coventon flew back to the Sunshine Coast from his many trips to remote mining sites he would overshoot the Caloundra airstrip and buzz his Kawana Waters beachfront home.

"It was like, 'here I am, put tea on, I'll be home in 10 minutes'," his son Glen Coventon said yesterday.

But when Mr Coventon performed his customary flyover on Sunday, something went tragically wrong.

Not long after his wife Sue and neighbours heard an airplane engine just after 8pm, Mr Coventon's single-engine, four-seater Mooney aircraft plunged into the sea about one nautical mile out from his home.

Yesterday his family were trying to come to terms with the fact he was still missing, despite extensive and immediate searches by rescue teams.

Glen Coventon said his father, 54, was an experienced pilot who had been flying for almost two decades.

As the owner of Performance Training, which creates training manuals for mining corporations, and vice-president of the Mooney aircraft group, flying to remote locations around Australia was his life.

"He's had a few close calls (flying)," Glen said. "He'd just put a brand new engine into this plane after the last one blew up going to Perth."

Glen said his mother had reported hearing a different sounding engine to normal in the minutes before the crash, while a neighbour claimed to have heard a spluttering sound.

The family praised the efforts of rescuers and members of the community who were out searching at sea within an hour of the accident.

Mr Coventon, who has lived on the Sunshine Coast for about 10 years, also has another son, Bryce, a daughter, Lauren, and two grandchildren.

The officer in charge of the Sunshine Coast water police, Sergeant Kyle Bates, said Mr Coventon had been returning from Cobar in western NSW to Caloundra airport when his plane hit the water.

Sgt Bates said water police and Coastguard boats had recovered a large amount of debris from the plane on Sunday night and yesterday before search conditions deteriorated.

"There were parts of the engine cowling, items of lining, personal papers and a bag," he said.

Sgt Bates said divers had been unable to locate the plane's fuselage which was believed to have sunk in 20m of water, however the search would continue at first light today depending on weather conditions.

Air safety officers will investigate the crash.

The Courier-Mail

Source: http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,10466997%255E26462,00.html (http://)

[grrowler]

ginjockey,

the difference with this is that it's a fatal accident, where the pilot cannot defend himself, and where peoples lives have been deeply affected no doubt.

Going off a preliminary media report to suggest that it was pilot error is insensitive and unnecessary. Now another report is out we could suggest mechanical failure as well. The point is we don't know yet and we just gonna have to wait n see.

Now better see if I can get that 30 year old cessna started so I'll be ready if some tourists come into town...:ok:

[Woomera]

A word of caution!

Speculation – particularly uninformed public speculation – with regard to aircraft accidents may causes unnecessary grief, hinder professional investigation and lead to speculative quotes in the media.

Indeed a recent thread was moderated at the request of the ATSB.

Please refrain from all speculation regarding aircraft accidents and incidents until accident reports are issued by the appropriate authority.

Woomera

[williamsf1]

As usual Grrowler sees it with a balanced view, while others are racing to jump to conclusions!
As our Woomeri Jedi has kindly pointed out, it is ALWAYS best left to the real experts, not the arm chair type ;)



so back to the sledging.....

How they fit those flighties in that 30 yr old Cessna will always amaze me!:E :E :E

some boys never learn eh!

Beers soon Grrowler?

[Disco Stu]

The Woomeri comments could well be directed at the media in general. I suppose if we removed all speculation from the media then the TV 'news' would be 30 mins of blank stares and a newspaper would be a few pages of ad's only.

Pretty much as it now.:p

On a more serious note, I will miss the particular aircraft 'whistling' overhead, RIP fellow aviator.


Disco Stu

[Binoculars]

Spot on again, Stu. :ok:

I never cease wondering why so many people keep watching the TV "news" then complain about the shallow content.

[126.7]

MAn, flying the 30 year old Cessna around the Kimberley was a blast, some of my best time spent on Earth to date. Sounds like some people are a bit jealous.:}

[Spotlight]

Then again.... A look at the recent ATSB report on the Coolangatta Aerostar reminds me of the presumptive comments made by some on these boards.
The report is not conclusive and was never going to be however the factors leading up to the accident were surmised (un)surprisingly accurately.

The stark reality of tragic accidents for the rest of us is that they remind us instantly just how dangerous flying can be. For the chattering brigade who after any prang chorus 'wait for the report'. Consider: the Coolangatta crash was running here on two threads from memory with many posts and views. Giving many I am sure pause for thought on the wisdom of the particular type of training operation.

Since the report, a dry document gathering dust to use a metaphore. Nothing. For the less experienced stumbling across the report many of the factors presented would not leap off the page as pertinently as they would to the more experienced. Hence the value of discussion as education.

I agree that Sunfish's comment as phrased was childish to the point of being offensive and not conducive to polite reply.

With the greatest repect to the aviator and his family.

[misunderstood]

So Woomera, now a rumour network is being censored, oops I mean moderated?

The first thing anyone asks when something goes wrong is "what happened?" Speculation naturally follows. If anyone were to rely on that speculation they would be an idiot, but it is perfectly normal to speculate.

I find it laughable that ATSB would muscle into a PPRuNe thread when they should be spending their efforts doing what Gil Grissom famously says: "Concentrate on what cannot lie - the evidence". Will there be visits to crew rooms all over Australia from the ATSB Men In Black forbidding any and all speculation on causes of accidents? Of course it's a stupid suggestion, thanks for picking that up.

If we are to seriously heed advice to halt all speculation, you might as well shut down PPRuNe altogether.

-- my 2c worth.

[Disco Stu]

Spotlight, Sunfish & even our esteemed Woomera.

Looking critically at any investigative process (and I include coronials and the like) you can really only say their conclusions are based on the evidence available at a given time (which may be incomplete) and their "educated guesses". How well educated those guesses are is considerably variable dependant on relevant experience (exposure to the world) and some sort of again, relevant education. They also must go through a 'process' to arrive at their 'conclusion/s' to ensure that every angle is looked into.

I do understand the youthfull desire of some to jump in with theories and guesswork whenever there is an (all too frequent) aviation incident/accident, but unless you were in the aircraft and inside the pilots head, nobody and I mean nobody really knows what actually happened.

Everything is just guesswork. If you are the ATSB, it is authoritive guesswork, if you are a policeman then it is potentially 'verballed', if you are coroner then I haven't a clue what it would be.

Let the educated guessers have their go. Considering the almost complete lack of 'hard' evidence regarding the missing Aerostar out of Cooly, a considerable number of words were written about such little evidence. My educated guess is that it was an educated guess!

Disco Stu.

[Ash767]

Gee, Sunfish has gone a bit quiet!;)

[Sunfish]

Actually Sunfish has spent the weekend not looking at the internet.

I was surprised at the venting thats going on here over a bit of mere innocent speculation by little old me.

I have absolutely no idea what caused the GoldCoast crash, however "Pilot Error" is a very real concept for me at the moment and I respectfully but regretfully need to draw some of your attention to the fact that it appears to be the major cause of accidents.

I guess eventually we will see a report, but thats not going to stop me or anyone else from speculating over everything from the war on Iraq, to who is going to win the football or what caused certain air crashes.

BTW, I am acutely conscious about what I don't know about driving an aircraft even though I spent quite a few years in the aerospace business on both the civil and defence side, and thought that would help.

Up to now, I've been very pleasantly surprised by the friendliness and helpfulness of pilots and instructors, even on the internet. However I guess I should have expected that there would have to be a few arseholes around.

BTW, any of you fly out of Moorrabbin? Obviously not, otherwise you would have remembered last Saturday's weather. I was one of four victims in the circuit doing crosswind landings with a 12 to 20 knot component according to ATIS. My score: one out of five attempts, two go arounds, and two saves by my instructor.

If I make anyone's blood boil, then poor you.

[Bevan666]

Sunfish,

I have absolutely no idea what caused the GoldCoast crash, however "Pilot Error" is a very real concept for me at the moment and I respectfully but regretfully need to draw some of your attention to the fact that it appears to be the major cause of accidents.

I think what you might need to look at is 'human factors' rather than 'pilot error'. I think you might find peoples blood boil when you speculate on the cause of an accident which others may have a personal interest, especially if you have no idea of the facts of the case. It is very very bad form.

There by the grace of god go I.

Bevan..

[Sunfish]

Thank You Bevan. I apologise if I've upset anyone.

[Woomera]

Sunfish

Back in the days when this Woomera joined the aviation industry, when you were probably no more than a thought in your father’s mind, unqualified “Pilot Error” or “engine failure” was the cause of probably 99% of all aircraft accidents.

In this enlightened technological era, far more competent investigators, with far more sophisticated investigative systems and tools, go well beyond the realms of mere, unqualified “Pilot Error” or “engine failure”. Even where "pilot error" may be the primary cause, investigators attempt to determine cause or reason for that "pilot error".

Why you ask? Simply because the investigators need to attempt to identify the real cause of aircraft accidents to identify systemic or component failure etc., in order to make aviation far safer for all of us. Try reading a few accident reports at the ATSB site to appreciate the long, exhaustive and arduous process adopted by qualified and competent investigators.

I could think of dozens, maybe hundreds of hypothetical reasons for any accident, including the accident in question. But, like you, I am not at the scene, have no information upon which to make a decision, am not a trained and competent investigator and there’s a 99% chance I would be totally incorrect, as you probably were with your suggestion.

There are three very interesting comments in the media which intrigue me and I’m sure will be carefully investigated:

“….was an experienced pilot who had been flying for almost two decades.”

"He'd just put a brand new engine into this plane after the last one blew up going to Perth."

"Glen said his mother had reported hearing a different sounding engine to normal in the minutes before the crash, while a neighbour claimed to have heard a spluttering sound.”

Very compelling comments even if made by unqualified witnesses. I am not drawing any conclusions but will be following the accident reports with great interest.

Then there’s the question of family and friends. They too are entitled to competent advice and reason for the accident to put closure to their grief. Unqualified and probably totally incorrect conclusions would not help their grief.

Some of us, including this Woomera, have “been there” where accident are concerned. This is a Professional pilot’s forum – lets try to maintain some professionalism and ethics.

Woomera

[Sunfish]

I've taken your point Woomera. I also read the accident reports and Ialso agree "Human Factors" is a better term than Pilot error.

[helmet fire]

Well said Woomera.
The term "Pilot Error" is trying to be erased by modern human factors training, and yet it still survives quite well. You dont hear of "Doctor Error" when they leave an instrument in your stomach, "Engineer Error" when the faulty design caused the bridge to collapse, or even "Pilot Error" when the harbour pilot hits the marine marker. They get called "human error". By referring to our form of human error as pilot error, we are inferring that other professionals wouldn't have made the mistake, or that it is some kind of special affliction that only pilots will suffer.

As professional pilots, lets make a concerted effort to NEVER refer to "pilot" error.

[victor two]

Come on guys, lets call a spade a spade here. If a pilot makes a serious mistake and shuts down the wrong engine by mistake or crashes a perfectly serviceable aircraft by making poor judgement, that is pilot error. The pilot made a mistake. Calling it "humans factors" because he may have had a fight with his girlfriend the day before does nothing to change the facts. Lets not see political correctness go beserk here just because a psychologist has coined the term Human Factors to account for situations of fatigue or stress and how they manifest themselves in the cockpit. You will never remove the phrase "Pilot Error" from the media or mainstream life. We are stuck with it and it does have a valid place in any accident investigation.

Human factors relates more to the background of events and behaviour psychology such as "push-on-itis" and pilots flying into hills because they were fell asleep after twenty hours at the controls. The two are linked and go hand in hand. Pilot Error is here to stay because( despite what some of you think) we are only human and make mistakes in our work.



Victor
You have a lot to learn about aviation and professional aircraft accident investigation. Take for example, your comment "....and shuts down the wrong engine by mistake..." my first question is: WHY

In less than a minute I can think of many possible reasons:
Fatigue; confusion (medication, drugs, hypoxia, CO or CO2?); systemic training failure; CAR 215 or CAR 217 deficiency; currency; mechanical failure ... and on, and on, and on........

Professional investigators in this day and age seek real answers, not hide behind a generic and inconclusive "pilot error" results.

Woomera

[helmet fire]

Victor,

I was not professing "human factors", I was saying we should refer to it as "human error" like all other professions. "Pilot Error" has NO valid place in modern aviation investigations & it will remain in the media as long as we keep the term alive.

Pilot error is human error. Lets call it that.

[victor two]

Thanks for the spray woomera. Maybe in your haste to think of twenty reasons why a pilot would might shut down the wrong engine you actually missed the point? Blame human factors for that, maybe you were tired or stressed.

What I am saying is that human factors and pilot error are seperate elements but they are still linked. You rattle off several factors CONTRIBUTING to the mistake that causes the crash. Regardless of how tired or if he thinks his wife is screwing about, he still made a mistake by doing something that caused a crash.

What if he was happy, trained, medically fit, proficient, not stressed, at ease with his sexuality, loved his kids who loved him back, happy with his religious faith. At a critical moment, he reacts but reads a guage wrong and shuts down the wrong engine.

What then, in your world devoid of pilot error would you call that?



Victor

I'm not trying to "spray" you, merely giving you an insight into modern accident investigative techniques.

For example: In the instance you quote - of a competent and settled pilot miss identifying a failed engine - I would have to ask an even bigger WHY?

Whilst there may be many reasons - including unexplained "pilot error" - what if the cause was mental confusion caused by carbon monoxide or fumes from a heater which had a design defect?

And of course, an investigation into why the engine failed........!

Two fatal accidents come to mind:

Many years ago a King Air broke up in flight. Public suggestion was passengers fighting. Final report - the cabin pressure dump switch had been accidentally activated at flight levels. This lead to "switch guards" being installed on all King Airs.

A few years ago an Islander stalled and crashed on landing. CASA blamed defective maintenance and grounded the operator. Final report: aircraft stalled in an emergency manouver due to a vehicle driving onto the airstrip.

And a milestone in accident investigation, the investigation into fatigue failure in the Comet I airliner, fifty years ago.

I don't subscribe to "pilot error" as the cause of an accident. There has to be a reason for that "pilot error" and hopefully, lessons we can all learn.

Woomera

[Transition Layer]

Victor Two,

Your somewhat simplistic approach to the idea of human error is not uncommon. Not sure if you have read this book but it well worth your while - Human Factors in Flight, Frank H. Hawkins (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0291397387/qid=1093251145/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-4752066-1500113?v=glance&s=books)

It should be compulsory reading for anyone wanting to enter the industry, student pilot and above.

Cheers,
TL

[Sunfish]

Can we all calm down and take a chill pill? I'm sorry I gave the opportunity to vent. Lets wait for the ATSB report.

Its human factors. Even this muggins now knows that it is an issue after making an impulsive decision to "help" my instructor after she took over. I damn near killed both of us.

[victor two]

Guys, I'm not the slightest heated or wound up. I am just confused as to what I interpret as a new trend in human behaviour that I seemed to miss out on until now. The impression I get is that, today, there is no such thing as pilot error anymore. That any action, regardless of stupidity or motivation can be explained away as a human factor. I am aware of accident event chains (or the theory of them anyway) and how all the holes have to line up to allow the safety measures to be breached and so on. This seems to suggest that noone actually makes mistakes anymore, what is happening is systematic breakdowns in saftey measures for various reasons.
Therefore, is this new phenomenom contained only to aircraft or do taxi drivers who crash and kill people by misjudging a corner come under the same category. What about policemen who make a mistake and under situations of stress, shoot the wrong guy. Is that covered by the same theory? People make dumb mistakes everyday and that is a fact.

Example: A fit happy pilot with 20/20 eyesight is flying a light aircraft low to look at his favourite camping spot and clips charted but unseen power lines and crashes. Describe to me how that is anything other than a error of judgement which could have been avoided.
If that is a simplistic view of saftey, I'll take it every day. Book or no book.

Good chatting guys

Vic.

Vic

Have a quick read here. (http://www.atsb.gov.au/atsb/training/hf_course.cfm)

Woomera

[Ibex]

Sunfish:

BTW, any of you fly out of Moorrabbin? Obviously not, otherwise you would have remembered last Saturday's weather. I was one of four victims in the circuit doing crosswind landings with a 12 to 20 knot component according to ATIS. My score: one out of five attempts, two go arounds, and two saves by my instructor.

I don't understand? What is your point here?

[Sunfish]

Sorry Ibex, I was making a point to someoen who was querying something I said about crosswind landings. It seems that person has disappeared.

Might get some more practice tomorrow as it looks like a 20 -30 knot day.

Going out at ten today to practice forced landings.

[helmet fire]

victor, woomera, sunfish, etc

We are talking at slightly crossed purposes here.
Not one of us is arguing that humans (including pilots) make mistakes. Not one of us is arguing that there are factors involved in those mistakes.

Human factors is the term applied to those factors.
Human error is the term applied to those mistakes.

Pilot error has not suddenly disappeared, rather it has been renamed into a more appropriate label: Human Error. This is like every other profession. And if we, the professional pilots, stick to using the correct terminology of human error, then perhaps the degrading throwaway of pilot error will recede, and the public may envisage a less sensational (and therefore more understandable) cause for some of these accidents: human error. Just like doctors, lawyers, engineers, authors, etc, etc....

[victor two]

Without wanting to harp on about this minor issue too much. Over the last 24 hours I have heard the term " Pilot Error" used at least three times by different news broadcasters in relation to possible reasons for the double aircraft crashes in Russia.

"Pilot Error is unlikely, Pilot Error is a possibility and investigators are considering if pilot error played a part......"

That particular term is not going to go away in our lifetimes guys. Sorry about that.
cheers
Vic

[dude65]

Sunfish

Ibex makes a good point.

This is not the thread to post your training progress updates.

You're showing a complete lack of respect for the pilots family & friends.

[Ovation]

While I can understand there will be ongoing speculation as to the loss of the aircraft, I find it repugnant in the way it has been handled by some respondents to this topic. I believe I can speak for all of those who today attended Barry's farewell held in a hangar at YBMC.

Those of us who knew Barry considered he was a careful conservative pilot who maintained his skill level with a recurrent Mooney Pilot Proficiency Program, so you should consider his loss demonstrates that none of us are immune to a similar fate.


If you need to show how clever you are (which probably means you're not) please start another topic which will generalise Human Factors without speculating about the loss of a good man who will be sadly missed by all.

[YPJT]

Sunfish,
I'll make a suggestion sport.

Cut and paste this entire thread, print it and show it to an adult with your posts highlighted. Then ask them ; Do you think I've made a plonker of myself? I bet even if they don't have an aviation background, they will answer in the affirmative.

[hadagutful]

Victor Two

This is probably not the right forum to pursue this, however,
despite your ongoing plea, modern Human Factors Theory and Practice has exploded the myth of 'pilot error'.
It has been an enduring term but academic studies now refer to the more correct term 'human error'.
As someone rightly remarked earlier, we don't have 'doctor error' for a medical mistake or 'managing director error' for a business misjudgment or 'police error' for a false arrest etc. etc.
As Woomera has tried to point out, most if not all accidents/incidents are the result of systemic error within the organisation. The pilot/pilots are but a cog within the operation. This of course, is not to say pilots aren't capable of human error.
Accident investigation now focuses not just on what happened but on all the factors as to why it happened and may go well beyond the pilots, crew and aircraft.

I suggest like Transition Layer did that you might get a copy of the book "Human Factors in Flight" by Captain Frank H Hawkins, the prescribed text for Aviation Psychology subject within the Aviation Degree at University of Western Sydney.
There is a specific chapter entitled "Human Error".

[Binoculars]

I can't believe the general thrust of this thread. Pilots as a group would be as opposed to PC thinking as any other group going around, yet when the term "pilot error" is mentioned people here are blindly flopping around using "human error" etc as a replacement.

People, be they pilots, controllers, briefing officers, met staff, whatever, make mistakes. Trying to shift the blame by using PC criteria defeats the purpose, surely?

[Sunfish]

Thank you for deleting both posts Woomera!