Having to pay for Type Ratings as well!

[hose]

Can any one help me out on this.

I am a very recent graduate of Oxford Aviations Training`s excellent Airline Preparation Programme (APP) with first time passes in everything.

Now that i am back home driving a van for £75 a day whilst going through the very sole destroying and frustrating ritual of sending out my CV with the bearest minimum 220 hours on it and getting absolutly no responses what so ever, something has finally dawned upon me.

If i stand even the slightest chance of ever actually using this licence that has alreay cost me over £70,000 to obtain i am going to have to spend a further £15 - £20,000 on a type rating.

With my £650+ a month repayments for the next 11 years of my life to fund the loan on my course and all the other mandatory living expenses i just can not afford this or will be able to find any one to loan it to me.

What i could do with some feedback on is this please.

* It is now `industry norm` to have to come up with this additional sum of money as every airline i have contacted that may consider employing low hour pilots expect me to find it

* Are people considering becoming a pilot including it into any financial planning and budgeting before starting down this route

* Where are the guys who are getting these type ratings finding the money from.

Eventhough i have a nice new shiny Frozen ATPL i feel as though i am effectivly still only two thirds of the way there and without the extra money it is effectivly useless!

Any comments would be most welcome.

[GlueBall]

The "industry norm" as you put it is called "experience" which can not be accumulated by driving a truck. The best course of action in your case is to keep flying, even if it's only parttime, maybe by getting your instructors rating and teaching at a flight school if you can't get into the right seat of a small twin flying night freight. Because to fly PIC for hire in a small single engine airplane like a Cessna Caravan, most companies have insurance agreements that require you to have at least 1000 hours flying experience. :{

[joe]

Mate, although money is tight (it is for everyone upon finishing and repayments starting) driving a van isn't exactly putting you in the networking environment.

I'm not sure where you live, but a major airport can't be that far away, get down there and get networking.

I know for a fact that there are plenty of jobs going at Manchester with a certain ground handling agent (presume elsewhere also).

Remember if its on PPjn, In flight and to an extent on pprune its often too late. Get the info from the horses mouth, and put a face to that CV.

Also have you tried CTC's ATP scheme?? I would before i spent £20000+ on a SSTR. Having said that i gather courses are booked into October now and that you wouldn't get a selection phase 2 until the new year. (Thats if you fit the requirements at phase1).

Flight Instructing???, I spoke to influential people about this option. It depends who you want to fly for. I know the ones i initially aimed my CV's at didn't see any relevance to having 1000hrs sep, to flying a jet. The old route of Instructor-Turboprop-Jet is generally dead for the majority unfortunately.

However, others such as Flybe and BACX still have a small preference for them.

Whatever you do buddy you knew it wasn't going to be easy getting a job, unless you believed your APP marketing Bu*****t. Getting the shiny licence is only a small part of getting a job.

The hard work starts now.

Just my T & C's

[what who me?]

hose,

70K would get you a nice modular course AND a type rating.

What is so 'excellent' about this APP? The marketing bla bla I guess.

Even though i have a nice new shiny Frozen ATPL i feel as though i am effectivly still only two thirds of the way there
Two thirds? That far?

[dreamingA380]

Chin up hose,

Joe and glueball have almost said it all.

All I would add.... is that a type with no time is worth diddley.
So dont get suckered into that one.

Good luck and know you are not alone!

[hose]

OK. Thanks for your replies but I have heard it all before.

I know the bit about doing an Instructors Licence.

I also know about staying current.

These things cost money, and the problem I raise is about cash flow. Thats all.

An instructors rating costs money and results in being paid peanuts. Staying current also costs good money.

I know the thing about getting some two-bob-job at an airport in the hope of getting to know a fairy godmother. But this pays fewer peanuts than the Instructors job.

The point is that I now have to start paying back my loan and have no chance of getting more money to pay for any more training. The main priority is earning money to pay off the loan in the knowledge that I can't stay current and so will most likely never get a job.

I'm not being negative, just realistic. Call me naive, but most people are like me and thought that the ATPL was an investment that would see us getting good employment. I now see that most of us will only have an 11 year debt to show for our hard work.

When I started on this route I never had any intention of being an Instructor or a baggage handler. I have no intention of doing it now. The good thing for me is I have another good job to fall back on. But looking at most of the people I was with on my course, about 90% had the loan, they have nothing to fall back on and can join the back of the line for jobs.

I bought into the dream, but will be left with a nighmare.

I am interested in views about the huge amount of money this is costing on top of normal living costs etc. This situation has only come about in the last couple of years.

I am respectful of all views but i heard a quote from a guy who runs at top training provider that there was about 2000+ low hour guys and girls waiting for there first break!

My view now is that people are being taken in by a con.

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

Hello Hose

Well done for passing everything, I think your route to success may have been a bit pricey but different strokes for different folks and you’ve now got your licence so that’s what matters.:D

All I would add.... is that a type with no time is worth diddley.

:rolleyes: I totally disagree, but that’s another thread!
If you can afford to do one then it would be an advantage for fairly obvious reasons but don’t put yourself out on the street. I don’t think it will become 'industry norm', only while supply outstrips demand. As for money, you ether borrow it off the bank or borrow through the airline (Ryanair, EasyJet, BMI Baby, etc.) if you can get on to their schemes (Lots of PROs and CONs!!!:p ) Have you applied to any? I know of a few who have got in.

I think age plays a part. If your getting on, then instructing may be the way to quickly build up some hours and make a few connections (but don’t believe everything you get promised!). If you’re still quite young then I would continue as you are. Instructing full time pays sod all and 1000's of hours in Cessnas and warriors is pretty counter productive so you would be better driving your van and do a bit of twin IFR flying in your spare time and possible part time instructing (if finances stretch to a rating). Things are picking up, so keep your hand in and i'm sure something will come about for you in the next 12-24 months (sounds like a long time doesn’t it :ugh:)

Just as long as Mr. Laden and Co. behave everything should be fine.

Regards and keep knocking out them C.V.'s
2 WINGS

:ok:

[High Wing Drifter]

I am respectful of all views but i heard a quote from a guy who runs at top training provider that there was about 2000+ low hour guys and girls waiting for there first break!
Max of 120 ATPL candidates per month maximum. In 2003-2004 there were 1286 issues. For there to be 2000+ we are talking all the candidates for the last two years not getting new airline jobs. Doesn't sound right to me. My finger in the air guesstimate would be hundreds not thousands.

[malcom in the middle]

hi 2 wings on my wagon

thanks for your posting.

ill give this whole thing some more thought tomorrow cos im off for some drinks in Tiger Tiger to try to find some Virgin Atlantic cabin crew and kid on i am actually doing the job but i must say i love your `cold as ice` approch to things and hope i end up down route in Hong Kong in a few years with a skipper like you!

ill also think about the money tomorrow.

[StudentInDebt]

Gaining experience instructing may not be directly relevant to piloting an A340-500 for 14 hours but instructors are getting still getting jobs and will continue to do so. Those who tell you otherwise are either a) after your money b) in an airline that doesnt employ instructors (there are a few, c) well meaning ex-integrated graduates or d) talking out of their arse.

I've been hearing that instructing is dead as an entry to airline flying on this website since 1998 and its simply not true.

[malcom in the middle]

I've read some of the tosh that goes on this site and I wander why I bother, it would be nice to hear the view of someone that knows what they are talking about and all we get is a bunch of no hope losers that have never got an airline job making out they know someting about it.

Your advice chaps, heard it all, same old blar.

[TRon]

Hose, you are saying you are not interested in doing some bob-a-job getting paid peanuts in order to get contacts and the 'fairy godmother' or that you dont want to instruct.

From what I am reading into your post it is airline job or nothing, from the money side of things. Whilst I wish you every success, get in line mate.

What all these training companies tell you is the fantastic pay and great lifestyle pilots have. No doubt Oxford would have assured you they would do their utmost to get you a job at the end of training which is why you could justify the extra investment it was for this course. Well I see in flight international they are struggling to hold on to their existing employees let alone spend any time trying to find you some work!

Whilst I think Oxford is an excellent school for the most part they have a self created superior standing about their importance in the world of training. I can assure you where you have come from these days in the world of non-sponsorship is largely of little importance. More important these days is can you think ahead and get on with the guy in the left. I would say 70/80% of the guys/girls with a licence could quite happily fall into that category and fly a jet with minimum training. Whilst there are people willing to pay for this 'privilige' and there is always a pool of ready and able youngsters to do this, airlines will get them to pay for it.

On my conversion course all the 'older' guys were instructors then turboprop and are still hampered by debt to this day. All the young boys are CTC ATP or McAlpine Cadets and many of them are in the same boat, only slightly less than 70k for the most part. We all face hardship when we are starting out.

To put it bluntly, even the ATP guys are getting shafted for the first 6 months. 1k a month for 6 months barely pays the bills but all of us are happy to accept that simply because of the experience and full pay they go on afterwards. That is just going to cover your loan, plus you need to find somewhere to live and eat. 1k just isn't going to cut it for you, without a further bridging loan.

I am not offering any solutions here I realise that, but no-one here is going to come back with any information that is going to really help you. If you want your ego stroked and someone to say you will find a job and it will all be OK, phone up Oxford and book a JOT course. I guarantee they will be all smiles. I worked at LHR chucking freight for 6 months, yesturday I passed my LST on the 737 but then I did things differently to you and for half the cost, go figure. I am not saying my way is the best way, but seems to be more the norm these days and I personally could not see how the APP was ever going to work without a sponsor. Heck, even CTC having 25 or so guys who have no sponsor and are facing being in the ATP pool for a while after they finish. I know where my money would have been if these schemes had been around when I started out!

Most struggled to get that first break and get out of debt. At the end of the day I am sure you carefully considered the APP scheme, but I am sure there would have been those that said go modular and those that will come on here again and say 'should have done modular' but you made that choice and now you are really paying for it, by struggling with the extra financial burden. On the flip side Oxford could have come good to their word and got you a jet job.....thats life, and thats the aviation industry.

As for those guys who have nothing to fall back on, I would say they are in a better position because they are more likely to work somewhere relevant and were they might meet that 'fairy godmother' it happens you can be sure of that.

I wouldn't sherk instructing or working for peanuts chucking bags, it's how many before you and after you will get in, maybe with less debt but again, that was your choice. Dont' hang around waiting for Oxford get you a job, there are just as many guys/girls coming through behind you, current....

Best of luck. TRon

[joe]

Hose
"Thanks for your replies but I have heard it all before"

well why ask the question then?



"When I started on this route I never had any intention of being an Instructor or a baggage handler. I have no intention of doing it now".

You arrogant p***K. Granted, we should all aim high but face reality. If you honestly thought that it was going to be a straight forward walk from training into an airline, then i have no sympathy for you. You obviously fell for the marketing story. Ask any pilot flying commercially, i bet they all have different routes mod/ integrated etc but i also bet they all had to do things which they really didn't want to do to get into the position of doing something they enjoy.

I.E hard workers, people with drive and commitment. Not people who can't understand why the airlines are not battering down their doors cos they've got a new CPL/IR.


"My view now is that people are being taken in by a con".

No, You have been taken in by the con. If you thought it was going to be easy and that you would have to do nothing to get a job apart from lick a few envelopes, Then you are a LOSER.

[er82]

FlyBE do not ask for money upfront. You have to sign a bond with them for 3 years, and they effectively pay the bond into your wage packet. The moment you quit, you then have to take on the repayments yourself. So as long as you don't quit - no problem! Unfortunately, it's not the same for most other airlines, although it should be!

I went to Oxford, and I'm afraid to say I found their 'help' after in finding a job just totally worthless. Don't expect them to help you. Send out your CV's, every month. Find out who is actually in charge of sorting through those CV's and call them. As said above, networking is the key.

Have you also considered the possibility of becoming cabin crew? Don't laugh at the idea too quickly - I know a few guys who did it, met all the right people, became friendly with various Capts who might be able to put in a good word for them etc. All on 737 now.
You'll be mixing with like-minded folk, will get to hear insider gossip for the airline you're working for, and it all helps. You'll get to know those in the offices who do the recruiting, can build up a decent relationship with them, and with any luck when they need someone, they'll look at you.
Last year BA advertised internally for anyone with a fATPL who might like to progress onto the flight deck. Lucky for those who were working for BA at the time!

Just out of interest - you say you are a very recent graduate. How long ago did you finish? Without wanting to be too pessimistic, I know guys who finished 2 years ago and still don't have jobs. And they also had 1st time passes etc etc. You could be waiting a long time to get that 1st job - just don't give up, because it is worth it in the end!

[hose]

I do not believe for one moment that anyone started their training with the intention of being an instructor, cabin crew, baggage handler or whatever. It is only AFTER they graduate they make up these 'routes' into a job.

People thinking of taking on a huge loan to fund their training need to know that at the end they will need to find even more money AND pay back the original loan from a low paid job.

[TRon]

hose, Listen. I doubt anyone actually went in with the intention of being cabin crew, baggage handler etc. Thats why they are doing a pilot licences.

The point you are missing is that the smart ones and often the more successful ones are the ones the realise and budget for this reality. That then puts the likes of Oxford's APP or even an integrated course out of their grasp financially if they are borrowing the full amount, but I wouldn't call that a bad thing. But lets not makes this an Integrated vs Modular argument.

you say: "It is only AFTER they graduate they make up these 'routes' into a job."

Well of course, not many work during an integrated course, you simply havent got the time, but your attitude seems to imply you expected to get hired straight away afterwards.

Those that do (and it does happen) are a) VERY lucky b) know someone prior to going in, probably by already working these 'crappy' jobs you mention before they started their licence.

They do this by saving for a long time rather than taking out a full loan as you probably have and are as such probably a bit older than you or were in a better job.

Most realise you are going to have to do a 'crappy' job as you put it afterwards to get ahead and not just be another CV or a name on Mike Taylor's growing unemployed APP 'list'.

If you couldn't really afford the 650 a month for 11 years, I hate to say it, why didn't you go for a cheaper option because it seems to be limiting your options now, and there isn't any left over for a Type Rating. All these things were considerations 18 months ago when I imagine you started and got 'sold' the dream. There are other ways, although you will normally have to part with some more money, but I guess airlines should be paying that for you right? Since you got 89% in your fATPL's and first time passes in your CPL and IR......Who Cares?

I am now 737 Type Rated and employed all for half the cost of the APP. All this took me two years including 5 months doing a 'crappy' job trying to get a foot in the door.

From the few posts I have read from you, I think you will be driving that van for a long time until you change your attitude. Some people might call that a crappy job.......

[hose]

thanks rto,

Since leaving the protective cocoon of Oxford i most certainly have had a reality check. Phew!

Cos your so busy there passing tests and you hear of airlines comming in and out of the place to meet with the senior bods. you feel that when you finnish you will be lined up with at the very least an interview - well that just hasnt and wont happen.

I dont blame Oxford for that i really think they are trying to sort something cos it would be in their own commercial interests to do so its just that this `reality check` im having is telling me that the airlines simply dont give a hoot about what oxford have to say about the APP.

The training there is superb no doubt about it. So professional, so slick, OK a bit of `showmanship` over the career service but no regrets over that side of things. No, what is dawning on me is that these airlines are being run by accountants and the fundamental business principal of supply and demand is meaning that there is absolutly no need for airlines to pay for type ratings for us new guys anymore!

I say again, does anyone out there know the answer to this

* How many low hour Frozen ATPL holders are out there clogging up this system and creating this situation?

If the CAA, BALPA, FTO`s dont know you can be sure of one thing - those airline accountants know - its their professional job to know - but they wont let on cos they would like even more pilots in training to ensure they can continue to dictate what drives pilot recruitment!

hi tron

Some good points well made - particually your last line!

Are you saying that following your ATPL training you self sponsored your own 737 type rating and this helped you get a job?

If you did you are actually helping to answer the question i originallty set out to get answered yesterday - are we getting into a situation of having to budget into the costs of becomming an airline pilot the cost of a type rating because that could be the deciding factor on weather or not you get an interview.

If it is then logic would indeed say that if the last thing on your licence is an LST in a 737, what employer in his right mind would then be bothered what kind of ATPL training course you did and, within reason, how well you did on it!

If people knew to add a £15 - £20,000 type training course to the ATPL costs they could cut their cloth accordingly (or not even bother getting the scissors out in the first place).

[Slim20]

airlines are being run by accountants and the fundamental business principal of supply and demand is meaning that there is absolutly no need for airlines to pay for type ratings for us new guys anymore

You are a bright guy after all!

Shame it took you this long. That's why the mass type-rating training organisations (aka low-cost carriers) are making people pay for their type ratings, and bonding them as well! read the other thread on this forum here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=140573) which shows which road the successful guys are going down at the moment.

[747 Downwind]

Oh Dear.. some people get ever so excited about the most insignificant of matters, chill out :cool:

Hose: You will have to make your own decisions in life, as you can see the views on this thread are both contradictory and ambigious. One picks up The Daily Mail/Telegraph and then you pick up The Guardian, somebodies got to be wrong and you'll make your own choice. If you don't want to be a baggage handler, then don't!!!

You took this route to do a job you wanted to enjoy, I personally would NEVER become cabin crew (Flight Ops and Baggage Handler, no probs). If the likes of JOE think you're an 'arrogant p***k' as he/she (don't know whether the E on the end makes a difference to the gender.. who cares anyway) so uncouthly states, than let them, who gives a monkeys what they think.

I certainly would consider airside/airline work as it can be beneficial in the long run, but I respect that sometimes the poor pay can hinder financial stability particularly with looming loans to repay.

Work hard, make contacts, keep your ear to the ground.. preferably both if possible! Network, get those C.Vs out try to find an aviation related job whilst your driving vans. Renew the IR at the very least if that time comes round and stay confident and don't get depressed.. for :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: sake this forum is bloody full of all sorts having a dig at each other telling others that they should feel fortunate when the person administering the castigations is having a moan themselves. What a damn contradiction, there are people dying and starving out there and all they can do is sit on their arse moaning, bogging at a flaming monitor:mad: :mad:

Well, now that's off my chest and has been said, I would suggest you speak directly to Oxford, your appear to be fiercely protective of them, WHY??

Many have disregarded the fact that Integrated an an approved college such as Oxford is of no benefit, I disagree, many airlines have taken self-sponsored low houred integrated students from Oxford, those who dispute this view are mearly resentful and in denial.

But on one last note of curiosity and perhaps you can inform me Hose, what is this APP and is it worth the £ 20000 extra you would pay for an integrated course at an approved college of equal 'excellence' such as Cabair and BAe Systems!!
You should be asking Oxford this now.. they have a duty :suspect:
I look forward to your reply and all the best in the job hunting:ok:

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

* How many low hour Frozen ATPL holders are out there clogging up this system and creating this situation?

??? :confused: Well your one are you not!!!

You could say what about all these old pilots; they’ve had their turn. What about all these American pilots who are looking for work in Europe because the U.S. market is in a very bad state, they should go home. What about all the young school leavers who beg for sponsorship, they should do it like the rest of us had too.
Are any of the above "clogging the system"? No, are they buggery. They get jobs because the airlines want their experience, their qualifications and their personalities! When there is a vacancy it will be filled with a pilot who fits with what the employer wants, be it a decent secondary education, a type rating, hours on type or just because their face fits!

2WINGS
:ok:

P.S. I agree with everything said in the previous post.

[TRon]

Forget fATPL's paying for Type Ratings people with full ATPL's are paying for them through easyJet's TRSS etc.

As long as people pay for their own licence I am sure people will pay for their type rating if they think it will get them a Jet Job.

Try getting a jet job in the states as your first. It just doesn't happen there.....

[malcom in the middle]

So what's been the point of this thread?

Are you saying that before you start your flight training you need to have enough money to hand over to your chosen FTO, plus thousands more for a type rating afterwards, and of course, the money to support yourself whilst all of this takes place, plus more for a couple years of unemployment, before hopefully securing a hotly contested job, that might pay just enough for you to serve these loans and maybe have a couple of quid left for a pint?

Could someone tell me how much that might add up to?

[hose]

all costs are approximate

Initial medical £500
APP £60,000
Accommodation etc £10,000
Type Training £20,000
Interest on loans £10,000
Contingency fund £5000

Approximate total

[malcom in the middle]

will all those with £100,000+ please form an orderly que!

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

Or you could go modular and it costs about 35k not including type rating.:cool:

PPL+Hour Build = 10k
CPL+IR = 18k
ATPL's = 3k
MCC = 2k
Bits 'n' Bobs = 2k

This isn't exact, but even if everything went over budget and you needed accommodation its still going to be easily sub 50k

2 WINGS
:ok:

[malcom in the middle]

2 wings and a PRAYER

i wont even dignify that post with a response other than to say i do hope you are never in charge of working out the fuel requirement in any plane i am a passenger in!

[AIRWAY]

Hello,

This is the reason why im on the modular path... For half of the price...

Is it my intention to buy a type rating later on? Only as a last resort... But if the industry continues as it is, i will have to get a rating in the end.

But this is my opinion after doing heaps of research, modular was for me.

[2WingsOnMyWagon]

Err... Malcom, Stapleford Flight Center do the PPL, Hour Building, ATPL, CPL, IR, MCC, 737 Type rating and 100 hours on type for £49,995. So im not that far out but if you want to spend £100,000+ then you go right ahead! Makes no odds to me.:p

2 WINGS
:ok:

[flystudent]

Hi All

Interesting thread. I think it brings the following points forward and should also be at the front of everyone's mind before parting with cash for training.

(Hose this isn't a dig at you, more for people about to part with half a house for flight training)

1. Plan worst case scenario, risk management. This is for anyone thinking of parting with thousands of pounds for flight training. Obviously one route is to minimise the initial expenditure (modular etc as discussed)

In that risk management one has to reduce the financial strain as you say. That means making a decision between something that might meet the loan repayments comfortably after the course or.... perhaps a bit less money with the focus on networking to put that loan to work.

2. As someone else said, approach Oxford with your concerns, ask them what they are doing for you, ask them how they are addressing their "careers" part of the APP. I appreciate that Oxford will tell you they are doing all they can and you dont want to "rock the boat" if they are doing stuff for you, but at the same time if it's part of a service you paid for then no harm in asking.

I too will be in the same shoes as you soon. So far (as of this Friday) there are 10 APP graduates from Oxford, all in the same situation as you. One of the guys has a website and he posts all the APP names with dates that people complete so we can see if anyone manages to get anything.

Of all the courses that have websites sure you can find it.

I will do a search on here, there must be a thread that exists regarding "what did you do after leaving Oxford" and I'm not referring to the bankruptcy one !!

Remember the old phrase, throw enough s**t at the wall and eventually some will stick.
flystudent

[Capt. Manuvar]

The problem is that there are toomany mugs coming into aviation. Sometimes I find it hard to believe that some posts here are written by people above the age of 16. The level of naivette worries me, I can't believe that in a few months/years some of these people will be flying million £ jets with hundreds of punters around the globe.
Too many people are getting suckered into believing that if the pay for this or that gimmick that they are guaranteed or owed a job.
Too many people are being suckered into believing that once you've got a job on 737s that you're totally sorted, especially on the financial side of things. At the moment there are new jet FOs who are having to live in their cars, oh how glamorous:cool: . How much do new FOs get paid? £40-50k, yeah right. Do you realise that in certain airlines you'll barely earn anything in your first 6-12mths.
Now if mgmt get their way at certain airlines, people will start paying for their own sims and HOTAC, and i see a lot of mugs who posting here who will go along with that, "at least I'm living my dream":yuk:
Remember that you need to command respect from the guy in the other seat as well. Unfortunately, leftseaters are becoming increasingly wary of new FOs. We might just see a return to the swinging 50s(?) when the Capt was God. And with the calibre of newbees today, he probably needs to be.
Capt. M

[malcom in the middle]

RTO - don't forget, if in an hotel etc, price of HOOKERS @ £120 p/h!

[er82]

It's very very sad that once again a simple question from a newly qualified wannabee is turned into a slanging match as to whether Integrated is better/worse than Modular, and which one is cheaper/better value for money.
Basic answer - WHO CARES!

Everyone has the right to choose which path they take to get somewhere. What you have to realise is that whichever way someone chooses to do it, we've all ended up in the same place with a nice blue licence and basically no hope of a job.

What Hose originally asked was basically about funding type ratings, and whether most people considered this cost before training, or how they found the money after training. I imagine those who completed their training a few years ago (pre 9/11) hadn't even considered such a thing - airlines generally took you on, gave you a job, and bonded you.
Post 9/11 it now is the norm to pay for your own type rating. I don't condone this, I think BALPA and the Pilot community should step up and tell the airlines where to go. But unfortunately this will never happen, and those who can afford to self-fund a type rating will stand a better chance of getting a job. Although saying that they still have to get through interviews first!

Various posts have advised getting a job within an airline (Ops, ground, Cabin Crew) all good ideas, and will allow you to network which is the key. Persistence is also the key - keep sending CV's.

I can't be bothered to say much more - most of the posts above have given reasonable advice, but please - ENOUGH OF THE INTEGRATED/MODULAR "MY COURSE WAS BETTER AND CHEAPER THAN YOURS" rubish. If I was interviewing two guys (or girls) for one job, one had done integrated and the other modular, I couldn't give a rat's a**e about who had done which course, and who passed the exams with the highest average. I'd be looking to pick the guy who I could spend 10hrs a day with, working in a close environemt, who didn't have his head up his own backside. And then there'd be the sim check to check out the flying skills. enough said.

[malcom in the middle]

yea not a bad post er82

i am actually a training skipper on 737`s and i can assure all you new lads pileing out of the schools - you will be paying for your ratings!

oh, and i can tell you another thing, my mates in management are already saying that if the numbers of low hour guys desperate to get into this game continue to rise you will end up getting paid less than cabin crew.

its just business

[AIRWAY]

we've all ended up in the same place with a nice blue licence and basically no hope of a job.

So, if we all will ended in the same place, why waste 35k more with an integrated course?

It's common sense, i think :confused:

But yes you are entirely right, it's your decision at the end of the day.

[Biscuit]

malcom in the middle,

That was a nice comment above. I've never met a pilot yet who has had to pay for their type rating. You are incorrect, quite simply. As for the cabin crew comment, well, I think it's been like that for a while anyway to be honest.

[malcom in the middle]

biscuit

next youll be saying youve never met a pilot thats had one of those £120 hookers

right, im off to work now to sit on the left of one of those blokes youve never met

[flystudent]

As a side issue...Malcolm in the middle..... £120 ??
Are you talking about spending that in the UK or overseas equivalent ? I imagine the "bang you get for your buck" varies significantly as one travels the world. :eek:
Some locations I am sure perceived to be better value for your money. As a nealry qualified wannabe this is priceless information. I will need to be armed with such information so that once I start fighting off those FO job offers I can start to choose based on many criteria, knowledge is priceless :ok:

:O

[malcom in the middle]

you are indeed correct however the groutesque things i have them do to me dont come cheap where ever you are in the world.

oh, and when you do get started son (and with an attitude like that to this facinating area of our work it wont be too long) yet another expense you wont read about anywhere is having to pay for guys like me doing the `checking` when your on your line checks

shelling out to be in this game never stops

[er82]

Airway - Don't forget not all would see the 'extra 35k' as a waste. I chose to do an integrated course because of the structure. I'm quite happy with my choice so don't go telling me I've wasted my money.
Whilst you might think it is a waste, I'm assuming that the current numbers of guys/gals still choosing to do the integrated route would also show that many others don't see it as a waste.

[AIRWAY]

er82,

Well it is "MY" opinion... And "MY opinion is, that integrated is a waste of money, you might not agree fair enought thats "YOUR" opinion, which you are entitled to. You might not agree with it, and you have put your point across and i respect it.

As for, what i shouldnt say, no comments because im not in the mood to start arguing.

And like i said in my previous post @ the end of the day everyone makes it's own decisions, to suit themselves.

Airway

[what who me?]

malcom in the middle
posted 16th August 2004 16:52
right, im off to work now to sit on the left of one of those blokes youve never met
malcom in the middle
posted 16th August 2004 19:17

You are either back home early or your are talking out of your rear end. I suspect the latter.

Enjoy the hookers at 120/H, but stop boring us. I think you are just another frustrated wannabee with too much time on your hands pretending to be a captain. If not, prove it!

[BoraBora007]

Never fails to amze me the amount of chips on their shoulder pricks post on this site.

Guy asks a normal question and gets bombarded with abuse and sob stories about how hard you have all worked to get where you are.

I would never do such a sh*tty job as a baggage handler, driver or anything after spending £60k on training. Thats not on.

I didn't go to school, work hard and get 3 good A-Levels, then to to a top uni and get a good degree, to pay 60k for an ATPL and do a menial job like a baggage handler.

I would have thought that an fATPL would show up well on any CV for a DECENT temporary job, while looking for employment.

My experience is different. Woke up one day and decided I would like to be a pilot. Wasn't a lifelong dream or anything but I thought it would be good.

I applied to an advert in a magazine I saw for pilot sponorship, got it and now fly A320s and enjoy it.

Guess you have to have the talent to make it as easy at that though!

[High Wing Drifter]

Guess you have to have the talent to make it as easy at that though!
You don't moonlight as a negotiator in Najaf do you, by any chance?

:p

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Hose - I suspect you are not genuine like other on this thread... Bora?

Nevertheless, your assertion:

I do not believe for one moment that anyone started their training with the intention of being an instructor, cabin crew, baggage handler or whatever. It is only AFTER they graduate they make up these 'routes' into a job.

Is not true.

Like many others who had a good working understanding of how the airline hiring business works I never expected to gain employment with them before a 1,000hrs and probably before unfreezing my ATPL. Which is exactly how it worked out.

Being of a somewhat sceptical nature I expected failure and overun at every junction. I anticipated several years of instructing or other air work before airline flying. As a result I managed to never ever be more than £10k in debt and only ever spent £17k on flying training.

Signing on the line for £70odd grands worth of frankly middle-of-the-road training and expecting an airline job in the climate of 18 months ago was - shall we say, optimistic.

Did you not read these forums prior?


Cheers

WWW

[BoraBora007]

What do you mean WWW?

I am just extrememly annoyed with some of the arrogant "I know it all" responses given on this website. Hence my angry post.

I do believe that a lot of people have a superior aura about them on pprune.

My true opinion:

guys and gals may well have to work as a baggage handler, driver etc.. before emplyment. Part of becoming an airline pilot due to the high cost of entry. Stories to tell the grand kids though!

WWW How do you get away with spending only 17k on training? I got sponored and mine cost more than that.

Where did you go to do it? Afganistan?

Cheers

ps. Id be a much better negotiator than the Americans but thats another story. :ok:

[High Wing Drifter]

ps. Id be a much better negotiator than the Americans but thats another story.
You mean an Iraqi Interim President with strings made of rope fit to dock ships! Sorry, off-topic, sorry, I'll shut up now.

[AIRWAY]

Do you talk to your crew like that when something upsets you?

Since he is a "natural" pilot, im sure he has high levels of CRM :} :E :}

[scroggs]

Paying a great deal of money for training is nothing new - it amazes me how many people think that all problems are an affliction only of their generation, and nothing bad ever happened to those who went before them!

Flying training to ATPL has always been extremely expensive, and the lucky ones who got sponsorships have always been in the very small minority. Paying for type ratings is not new either; it was very common in the late '80s and early '90s when I was first looking at obtaining a commercial flying job. And even those lucky BA Cadets of yore effectively paid for their training and ratings through a reduced salary, just like the CTC cadets do now.

As for hose and his like, it's a great shame they didn't research the market a little more thoroughly before shelling out their £70K+; the contention that the APP course (and similar) would be over-hyped and under-achieving was aired here many times when it was first announced, along with much more information about Oxford's 'career' department and its lack of results.

The fact is, as in every year since before I was born (and that's a long time ago) there have been more people wanting to fly for a living than there can possibly be jobs for them to go to. The training industry has always known this so, like all commerce, it has used semi-promises, guile and art to attract more moths to the flame while being somewhat economic with the truth of what any job prospects might be. Consequently, a higher proportion of graduates of these schools than any of you would be comfortable with never end up flying for a living. It's a fact; get used to it.

How many fATPLs are currently looking? I don't know - no one knows how many that have a non-lapsed licence have given up or are only casually looking, but I'd guess that the estimate of 2000 may be in the right ballpark. At the high end, may be, but there or thereabouts.

It all goes to reinforce what we've been saying here for years: this is a bloody difficult field to get into, and you may well not make it. To maximise your chances you must research the market a carefully as you can, using sites like Pprune, and you must budget all the way to that first job. It's not enough to fork out your £70k and then just hope the jobs will come to you - they won't

Scroggs

[BoraBora007]

pudknocker - Im not an angry person. :mad:

Whether you get a job or not is not all about flying skills.

You get your fATPL - stage 1

In order to then get a job you need to be an excellent communicator in an interview, you also need to be able to demonstrate excellent teamworking skills.

Lots of guys I know who got fATPLS had no personality, were too quiet, or on the other hand were too loud and arrogant and talked a lot of rubbish. Even at my sponsorship selection I could pretty much tell who would get it and who wouldn't, just by sitting and talking with them for a while.

All these guys may have fATPLs - but if they give a poor interview or they cant communicate well or work in a team - they wont get a job. It's the same with university graduates. They may have a degree but that won't get them a job. Their CV, personality and attitude will. These HR airline people aren't going to pick the most technically proficient pilot (although that will obviously be assessed). They are looking at who they would like to work with and asking themselves: will this guy fit into our team?

I have always been an advocate of preparing your ass off for interviews, by going through mock interviews with family/mates, preparing answers for every question you might get asked, even on paper.

Going to a teamwork/interview skills trainer is maybe a good idea.

This is what will give you the edge over some other ATPL holder, not the training itself. That is almost secondary. Go to a slection day and play the game and be well prepared.

You do need to be good enough to pass a sim ride though!

As for guys who sit and mock peoples spelling on pprune (pubknocker) - thats the superior aura Im tlkin about. bawbag

[Mooney12]

I agree with that. If you cant hold down a good interview, it doesn't matter how good a pilot you are!

[fade to grey]

Bora,bora..............it used to be perfectly feasible to get a licence for £17k,mine cost about £20k.It was called the hours building route......

I sense alot of snobbery in some of these posts.Yes,none of us who wish to fly would choose to end up refuelling/pushing planes about or working as a baggage handler -but you have to be realistic,I spent some time covered in oil with light a/c and manhandling them into hangars- I now fly the 757 but do not look down on those who do !

And to be honest I feel greatly for our engineers night after night in the pissing rain fixing the machines when I am sitting on my arse reading the express and eating crew food on my way to tenerife.

I sense there are alot of people on this site who are in love with the idea of being a pilot,not the reality ,might I suggest you get your rears down to an airport and talk to some of the bedraggled charter crews for a reality check !!

[Straightandlevel80kt]

Hello everyone

This is a typical thread for the Wannabes section. Rambling, incoherent and filled with intrigue, anxiety and contradiction. I'm now going to add to it.

;)

The chap seemed to want to know whether to fork out for a type rating. Only he can make this decision. He's learned the hard way about making choices and something of the consequences, and I feel confident that this experience equips him to make a rational judgement before borrowing any more cash.

It's a fecking nightmare to be in his position, and it's not helpful to rip the guy to pieces for events and decisions now passed. He's made his bed, and he has to lie in it, sure, but I hope we can continue to help each other on Pprune, and take people's questions at face value. It's rarely a bad thing to advise caution and feed back experience of hardship if this makes people think carefully about choices that will affect lives for a long time to come.

There is very little in this forum about flying, as much of it centres on bickering about who's better with money.

All the best to everyone.

:ok:

P.S. - Hookers for £120? Man, you guys are cheap...

P.P.S. - Pushing Tin was on again the other night. I hope they re-run this forever. Some wicked posts on the ATC pages last time this corker was on!

[precisionapr]

A web link to an airline servey by GAPAN, might explane or give some giudance http://www.gapan.org/career/survey.htm.

good luck

papp

[Mooney12]

http://www.gapan.org/career/survey.htm

Sounds like an advert for the CTCMcAlpine scheme.