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UNCTUOUS
13th Aug 2004, 04:59
Hmm

Methinks the real story will be when Congress and the industry eventually wakes up to the fact that you can fire MANPADS non-suicidally to an even greater obliquely-downwards range from a helo or light aircraft.

The advantage of doing it that way is that you defeat existing military, Israeli's El Al, Air Force One (and planned/under development) detection sensors and sensor auto-response active defence measures (whose aircraft under-belly mounted sensors and counter-measures only cover the downwards looking hemisphere).

Anybody who's done any meat-bombing from SE airplanes know how easy it is for a number of chutists (shootists) to hang off a door-step and wing-strut (and direct the exhaust across the upper mainplane of a Cessna (say)). All the terrorists need to do is pick out a target of opportunity whilst overflying a terminal area at height. Door already off or inflight-jettisoned enroute, it still works. With the chopper you just have to bank at the appropriate moment and direct the missile exhaust out the opposite (open) door.

By the time the system starts running around in circles and double-checking their airport perimeter and environs, you're either miles away or back at your OLA (Ordnance Loading Area).

Add "upwards" and "downwards" thinking to the "lateral" thinking, you think-tank experts. Solutions to this conundrum to Congress and you'll probably get a blank check in return.

Unfortunately (see below) the proliferation problem already exists - as proven by Iraqi experience. "Ground-based" defences? Right.


The full House of Representatives on July 23 in a 423-0 vote passed H.R. 4056, which includes "interim" measures to counter the threat of shoulder-fired missile attacks on commercial aircraft. The bill also supports further work in ground-based defenses against the missile threat, often referred to as man-portable air defense systems (MANPADS). The vote was taken just before the Democratic National Convention in Boston. The bill, also called the Commercial Aviation MANPADS Defense Act of 2004:
* Requires FAA to expedite, "when appropriate," the airworthiness certification of aircraft-based defense systems for commercial aircraft and avoid duplicating DHS research and development efforts.
* "Encourages" President Bush to continue programs to reduce the number of MANPADS available worldwide by urging him to urgently pursue bilateral and multilateral treaties that would limit their distribution.
* Requires the Department of Homeland Security to report to Congress in one year on vulnerability assessment reports the department is conducting at U.S. airports, and on "any ground-based defense policies or procedures recommended through that process."
The bill was sponsored by House Transportation aviation subcommittee Chairman John Mica (R-Fla.), ranking member Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.), and Rep. Steve Israel (D-N.Y.). Mica said that a $100 million research and development program at DHS is making "significant progress," and Congress wants FAA to be able to respond rapidly with certification if and when systems are approved.


Back to the drawing board boys

Dani
13th Aug 2004, 07:32
I think MANPADS defence is not solely looking downwards, it's just a counter measure against ground based systems, which of course can be fired also from an upper angle. Remember that these counter measures also have to be working in a turn and in mountainous regions, thus the sensors of such systems are not only the 180° lower hemisphere, but nearly all aspects, at least for high value targets.
It could be that potential aggressors may take use of advanced tactics (like you mentioned), but this would obstruct their mentality of low cost, low profile. A helicopter can be traced much easier than three men and a Toyota Landcruiser. Maybe terrorist would start with such methods in a second phase, if they see that other attacks didn't work, but then it would be easy to reinstall a second defense system for the top hemisphere of an aircraft, as it is already installed on several types. In the meanwhile terrorists of the Al Qaida sort would primarly continue with their strategy: creating the biggest effect with the least technical expense. They still earn more attention if they get down a (non protected) airliner with ordinary pax on board than an unsuccesful attempt to shoot at Air Force One.

Dani

NigelOnDraft
13th Aug 2004, 08:07
UNCTUOUS

For majority of Hand Held SAMs (MANPADS) they use IR seekers.

"Sensors", as you say, tend to be underwing mounted... in fact usually mounted on the engine pylon...

You seem to be missing a major point... they are not mounted on engine pylons becuase that is an easy / cheap place to hang them, nor because, as you state, only the "upward" firing trajectory has been considered.

It is because that is where the heat source is. In short, whilst your helo launch will get longer range, and they might have a better chance of escape (unlikely IMHO!), if they are "above" a typical Jet Transport (engines under wing mounted) they will have great difficulty getting a heat lock when compared to the ground / below aircraft lauch scenario...

NoD

Belgique
18th Aug 2004, 20:47
Hate to be a kill-joy but the systems under development in the USA and favoured by Congress are all concentrating upon the lower hemisphere. Granted that can be tilted somewhat in a turn AND take in some surrounding high ground, however the fact remains that detection from above is not envisaged in that design.

How do I know that? I subscribe to Air Safety Week (ASW) and it did an indepth presentation about 5 to 6 months ago on one particular system using data provided by the company that is developing / has developed it.

The latter IR MANPADS can track a heat plume to its source and do quite high g manoeuvres. So the "fired from above" aspect would not be a great deterrent, particularly over water where ground heat-source seduction could be more of a problem.

PPRuNe Pop
18th Aug 2004, 21:45
Where does it say on the title of this forum that post of this type is appropriate? A gross error of judgement, which I wish I had been been more aware of.

Show a bit of sense please. This forum is for spotters and those interested in aviation. :8