Circuits

[Cosmic Wind]

Having again spent a busy weekend dragging it around the curcuit at Gloster outside the ATZ following numerous acft I'm dismayed at the basic poor attitude to cicuit flying taught at many UK airfields. What the hell has happened to the notion of 'being within gliding distance', circuits that are flown with this in mind now seem the exception rather than the rule.

[BEagle]

And time the Staverton Air Traffickers chilled a bit as well.... "Golf blah-de-blah, taxy Alfa 2 expect 22 for departure hold short of 27, give way to the Stampe. Break, break, Golf Someone Else, cross 27 continue holding point 22, QNH check 1014".

Chaps, Heathrow it isn't.

[StudentInDebt]

Beagle, I agree but a CAA inspection of my own airfield resulted in the rather forced introduction of CAA standard phraseology "Taxi A1, cross 29 on reaching etc etc"

The controllers didn't like it, we didn't like it (massively congested frequencies when busy and wholly unnecessary calls) but do you think the CAA care? Sadly its too close to the Belgrano to be out of range of their airband scanners....

[fireflybob]

Still off the topic a bit I know but at Nottingham (thats EGBN) following the CAA Inspection we know have "labelled" holding points, e.g. RW 09 intersection departure is from holding point "M1" (ie Mike One).

Many of us were highly amused when the new boards appeared - are they really necessary at an airfield with A/G facility?

[Cosmic Wind]

Think GA works best in a non ATC controlled environment anyway. Breeds better airmanship situational awareness and more consideration for other aviators.

[Snigs]

Cosmic Wind

Two things, firstly the bad attitude to circuit flying taught is complete tosh. It is never taught to fly a circuit outside the ATZ. Just cast your mind back to the time when you were learning. How long did it take you to level off and trim on the crosswind leg when you were a novice. Long enough to fly close to the 2 mile mark I'd wager. When you were first introduced to the downwind checks were you able to reel them off quickly, or did it take time and all of a sudden you'd find yourself very late downwind (and probably at +/- 200ft as well). As an intructor I have to let the student fly these circuits, naturally I encourage a reasonably tight circuit, but at the beginning the student just can't do it. It does them no good whatsoever if I'm constantly saying "turn now bloggs"

Secondly, Glos is a very busy GA airfield with lots of training organisations (6 at the last count I think) so it's quite common for there to be a novice student doing circuits. When I'm in the circuit with a student and there are 4 others, I suggest to my student that we follow the one ahead (wherever it is) because if we don't we will run the risk of cutting up the student on the wide circuit. When we're number three for landing, then we must stay number three.

Ideal it isn't, but it is reality.

[Cosmic Wind]

That response just about sums up what i'm getting at. Students taught in a 'follow the one ahead' without question environment. I'm not advocating that everyone cuts everyone up but one of the most important aspects of circuit flying is situational awareness and a good plan in the event of a problem. Trimming, checks etc should be well and truely sorted prior to starting a student on circuit work. That sums up the 'get them off solo' attiudute that a lot of schools advocate as seemingly making progress when the standard is simply not up to flying a polished tight pattern, when traffic permits.

[DFC]

snigs,

Can you please share with us what type of aircraft you fly with the student and detail the pre-landing (downwind) checklist?

Regards,

DFC

[Snigs]

Cosmic Wind one of the most important aspects of circuit flying is situational awareness and a good plan in the event of a problem I couldn't agree more, but I'm talking about a circuit novice. How many 10 hour students do you know who can correct for drift in the circuit let alone know where everyone else is? Similarly, when out in the great blue yonder, said student can climb/descend and do the level off really nicely, but they take their time doing it, particularly the trimming, put that in the circuit and the will initially go wide, especially if they have other things to think about now.

I also had a pre circuit student who, when asked about the downwind checks in the briefing room (fyi DFC, the normal BUMMFITCH checks) could reel them off without error, but when actually downwind couldn't even remember the first one).

Anyway, when my student is a little more capable in the circuit I will ask them to do a good tight circuit and then ask them to tell me what we're going to do about our possible conflict with that Cessna who is wider and slower than us, with the conclusion going something like "that's one of the reasons why we spent a lesson learning how to fly the aircraft at a slow safe speed!"

DFC, the particular aircraft I teach in is a Robin Alpha, downwind speed c.95kts.

Just to reiterate, I'm talking novice students here.

[BEagle]

Please do NOT fly wide circuits to 'make it easier' for some student! That is a very poor way of training - and screws up everyone else. If your students aren't able to remember the checks in the circuit, take them out into the FIR and practise flying circuits at height until they can fly, get the checks right and simulate the radio calls.

Stick to the standard pattern - it'll make it MUCH easier for everyone else to make allowances for whatever they anticipate YOU will be doing!

[Snigs]

BEagle, I respect those comments and in an ideal world it would be so, but I still maintain that, what a student can do in the open FIR will not translate, initially, to the real situation in the circuit.

I do not teach wide circuits, but sometimes you have to let the student make the errors, in order to see if they notice, and hence IMHO they learn better.

[Whirlybird]

Do you all have memories worse than mine? Don't any of you remember being a pre-solo student? Or were you all natural pilots who picked it up like that? I remember (and I'm talking f/w here, not rotary). Snigs is right. You may have the circuit all clear in your head, you can talk it through, visualise it, fly it in the open FIR, do the checks. When you get into the real circuit, with other traffic, and specific places to turn, and someone answering your radio calls etc etc, that represents overload...at least it did for me, and I'm sure I'm not unique.

So sticking to the standard pattern is great, but I still remember my panic from an over-zealous instructor demanding that I turn base NOW, when I was still getting sorted out, and believe me, it didn't do me or my flying any good in the longer term. :(

[WestWind1950]

Standard patterns? how I wish! because of noise abatement and people that decided to build their home near the airfield, even right under the downwind, standard patterns hardly exist any more. You better stick to the published turning points and pattern altitude or you're in trouble! :\ and I'm talking about all fields, even the smallest GA one. (of course, in an emergency anything goes).

So, get a regular routine going (check list), get things stabilized, and practice. And use those situations when there is lots of traffice to teach the student how to be flexible when necessary, even if it means leaving the pattern completely for a while!

Westy

[ComJam]

In my experience (6 years and nearly 3000 hours instructional), I always found great instructional value in taking a stude to a disused airfield and adding climbing, turning and descending practice into one useful lesson, i.e how to fly a circuit from 500'agl on the climbout to 500'agl on final then go-around. Makes the initial actual circuit lesson much easier, beacause they've already done it without really realising.

The first place I instructed actually taught students to fly the downwind leg at a distance from which they could not reach the airfield in the event of an engine failure! Apparently there were "plenty of suitable fields on the south bank of the river" (oops might have given it away there! :)) My argument was: "there are plenty of useful metres of tarmac on the north bank!!" :rolleyes:

And as for some places where I've seen studes with a CRP-5 out planning the circuit as a navex.....(well almost)......i could go on :ugh:

cheers http://indigo.ie/~owenc/starwars/images/pint1.gif

[matspart3]

BEagle

Chaps, Heathrow it isn't.

I quite agree...we're busier!!:D

GMC, Delivery, and Air are all on the one frequency!! Our licences are issued by (and we are audited by) the same Authority and we operate to the same Manual of Air Traffic Services and ANO. Our taxiway and holding point designations conform to the same ICAO requirements....Five Star service for Two star aeroplanes ;)

Cosmic Wind

Ridiculous circuits, outside the ATZ are dangerous, a pain and a problem, but in a busy environment with a wide variety of aircraft types they are somewhat inevitable. In terms of volume, we did around 10 300 movements last month, types varying from Cubs to Falcon 900's. More significantly, there are a wide variety abilities here, from seasoned aviators like your good self, a large number of students to people who shouldn't be let out with a shopping trolley, let alone a tonne of flying metal, Add in the very busy parallel helicopter circuit up to 750' within the fixed wing one and noise abatement procedures and perhaps you can appreciate the many factors causing the problem

I do keep in regular contact with the CFI's of all our homebased clubs and I'm confident that no-one here actually 'teaches' wide circuits. My ATCO's do 'police' things to an extent, occasionally sending wayward circuiteers back to the deadside and offering the option, when appropriate, to change the sequence and slip in the odd 'short approach'...if you haven't been offered one and think it would work, please ask...if we can, we will, unfortunately, our crystal ball is u/s:D

[Snigs]

There are actually 3 circuit patterns at Glos ;) The fixed wing student circuit, the heli circuit and the "big cat" circuit.

Any time they're (the Stampe) on my inside downwind, they can (with my blessing) be on the ground and taxiing before my student is on base!! :uhoh: They must get really frustrated if stuck behind a "spamcan" on a busy day!