And when it all goes wrong....(!)

[FormationFlyer]

Hi folks,

OK, so your student has been progressing well and them <thump> a not so good lesson and they are very much disheartened...so what do you say?

I know they are pissed off but I try to be encouraging (I dont dont lie though...) I also try to relate to them a similar situation in my own training so as to help assure them that almost everyone goes through bad patches in their flight training. I also try to be constructive (never make destructive comments) and try suggest how they can change what they are doing in some way that might help them 'get it'.

What does everyone else do? Am I doing the right thing?

I ask because up 'til now things have been going well, but just recently I have had a couple of students find it hard to 'click' on the landings...just seems to be that if one thing is right another is wrong...

FF

PS On a personal note, I must say...its incredible how much I have learnt and improved myself since being an instructor - my own flying improved heaps on the instructor course, but its kept on improving...really quite incredible how situationally aware I am now...I must say its been extremely enlightening and I am thoroughly enjoying every minute. I am looking forward to many many years of instructing (even when I'm with the airlines!).

[13579]

I always teach that the approach is a science and the landing an art. That means to say, if all is going badly make sure the circuit and approach are really concerntrated upon. Tell them not to think about landing, just get these points right. Then if they arrive in the correct situation at the threshold, just try to coach them in not flaring and landing, but in keeping a trickle of power on, and practice flying at 5ft above the runway and finally if all goes well, gradually increase rearward pressure on the control column, until the plane sinks to the ground. I teach a good approach and let the landing take care of itself. Approach roundout then if all looks good at 5ft, a flare to sink onto runway. Also if they do a good landing tell them to forget about it. What I find tends to happen is that once one good landing is made they are pressured into feeling thet from now on everyone should be good, which just isn't true. But it's extra pressure they put on themselves. As long as they learn when to continue and land, and when they should go around thats all that counts. Got to go, hope thats of some use.

[Blue Line]

When ever I start out with new students, I always tell them that they will have good days, bad days & days where everything goes to custard <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> . When the day arrives & I find it is usally is about 2nd or 3rd lesson of Circuits, all you can tell them is that it happens to everyone & to kepp working & suddenly it will all click into place <img src="cool.gif" border="0">

With the landing make sure that they are looking towards (not at ) the end of the runway, then raaising the nose to the S & L attitude, slowly chopping th power & using the preripheral (spelling?) vision & as the aircraft slows down lifft decrease so the a/c sinks, pull back till the a/c stops sinking x repeat till nose at around climb attitude & a/c 6" off the ground.. .I don't tell them I want greasers from them, I say all I want are resonable landings on the main wheels & I find that as kouger said without the pressure they are more relaxed & land better because of that.

Just wait till you instruct Multi Engine IFR, thats another learning curve there, but very enjoyable

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hi Kougar:

I am curious about your advice not to teach the student to flare for the landing.

Does this method of teaching landings not make it difficult for the student to relearn how to land when they progress further in their learning curve?

It is not my intention to start an argument with you it is just that I find your advice courious to say the least. It might however explain why there are so many arrivals on runways rather than landings.

As an example of why I am asking, suppose you taught your student how to land as you describe and later on the student asked you to teach him / her to perform wheel landings on a conventional gear airplane. Would it not be difficult to break the habit of arriving rather than flaring and landing? Or have you figured out how to wheel land without flaring?

Just wondering.......

................ . :) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)

[yxcapt]

Some of the techniques I use are mentioned above but I have a couple of other ideas.

I start out with the pattern first. Pitch, power, airspeed, flaps, traffic and stuff. The stabilized final is key. I don't have them end with landings at first, actually most of the approaches end with go-arounds. We keep doing this until the student has it well under controll. As the patterns and approaches continue the altitude gets lower and lower to the runway. We still end with the go around.

This takes the focus (and stress) off the actual round out and flare. While we are doing the take off or even the go around I have them focus and memorize this pitch attitude.

Back to the approach. The student soon gets use to the go around coming fairly low to the ground. At some point I tell them I want control of the power and I want them to keep the airplane from touching the runway and remind them of the take off pitch attitude. Anyway you can guess they make their first landing this way. We repeat this a few times and control of the power is returned to them.

Buy the way, I always emphasize that the go-around is the get out of jail free card.

. .Cat, I use this same basic technique in tail wheels too. Especially for wheel landings.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

yxcapt:

Yes the method you use is excellent, it allows the student to learn to flare without actually having the stress of the landing.

Some years ago I added a camcorder to my training on the flying boats and it works so well I now use it for all kinds of training problems. The really neat thing about a camcorder is when the student is having problems with height judgement for the flare you just land and and plug the camcorder into the T.V... I give the student a laser pen. When the approach gets to the point that the student starts to have problems with height judgement I stop the camera and ask them to show me where they were looking by putting the laser dot where they were looking, I also ask them what they were thinking at that point. You can stop and start the camera at will and explain to the student where it went wrong and how to correct their problems.

It is amazing how well this works usually their problem is looking to far ahead just prior to the flare.

The camcorder film is the students property and they keep it.

Many years ago I instructed in a crop dusting school and without doubt nothing comes close to that type of flying for acquiring height judgement skills. Aerobatic pilots fly low however cropduster pilots really fly low.

. .Incidently the cost of a camcorder is really not much of a factor, when you fine tune your instructional techniques you will be able to charge a higher hourly rate. In the end your higher hourly rate saves the student money because they learn in a shorter time frame plus they learn to do things the correct way.. ...............

. . :) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)

[13579]

Dear cat driver, I just glossed over the point of the flare, was in a rush, all I was hoping to get across, was that if they concerntrate on things they can have a good ability to control, ie a good approach and arrival, then at least in the early days the actual landing isn't too important. Obviously they are taught and coached through the correct landing technique and more importantly shown what to do if it doesn't go well, go around, but if they are having a mental block, take the pressure off, and concerntrate on the approach. often then they arrive in the right situation, knowing mentally what they are trying to achieve in getting the thing efficiently on the ground, with out the pressure of thinking about it all the way down that final approach. I was taught by an old spitfire pilot and was taught to chop the power once over the threshold. This requires quite a lot of flying ability for a novice and a lot of concerntration, so the actual method of land I teach is in three parts, appr, roundout, and flare, opposed to the appr, flare method I was taught. I find that with very minimal demonstration by me, most can arrive at the threshold, and fly along at 5ft, with a trickle of power set. Then if it all steadies down they can close the throttle and gradually increase back pressure to certain point, and sink to the runway. If not full power and go around, but at least their mind is recalibrating every time and soon in will be fine tuned, Then the proceedure can be condensed, so they learn not to float, or to get it in a short field. But if they have bad days, just make sure they get the circuit and approach right, and really make them use and appreciate the rudder. I think yxcapt said what I mean't.

[Whirlybird]

As just a wannabe helicopter instructor, can I put in my twopennorth.

I think you've ALL got it basically right. And I want to thank you all for restoring my faith in flying instructors! I had an absolutely horrible time learning to fly when doing my PPL(A); my instructor completely destroyed my confidence; it took me over 40 hours to go solo and much much much longer to get over it completely (if I ever have). I realise now, years later, that it was partly because he didn't care very much (he was an hours building airline wannabe) and neither did the school so long as they got their money. I think they all rather wished I'd go away, but what I lacked in natural ability I made up for in staying power and I simply wasn't going to give up no matter what.

Anyway, I nearly cried when I read this thread. It's just really nice to know so many instructors actually CARE about their students. That's the most important thing. As long as that's the case, your students will pick up on it, and you'll basically get it right, no matter if the details of what you say and do aren't perfect.

At least, that's my opinion, from someone who knows very little about it yet. But thank you all anyway.

[FormationFlyer]

Hi,

Whirlybird - you've given me a chance to explain something here...

Yes I am on my way to the airlines. But I dont want to be tarnished with the same brush as other instructors who are 'hours building'.

For a start I am already a frozen ATPL (so already ME/IR) & MCC. I have about 525hrs and also fly formation & aerobatics. In the next couple of months I will be doing a seaplane rating (for fun). It has to be said I really do enjoy my flying. Deeply enjoy it.

And thats what brought me to instruction - not my need for hours - my enjoyment. I had talked about doing an instructor rating for many years now (4 to be precise) both in the microlight world AND in the light aircraft areas. It was only this year that I really had the experience, time and money to finally do the course.

Now I teach part time at an airfield local to me. I was very keen to get in there. Why? because

1. its on my doorstep. .2. they are extremely flexible. .3. they have an excellent reputation

This means that when I am with the airlines I can continue my instructing. On days when I am not required by the airline I can teach. Thats what will keep me on my toes and in touch with the grass roots flying i love so much. Indeed, probably about 75% of the instructors there are current airline pilots.

The other club I instruct at I had been flying in the formation team for a year - its quite a way from home. The team practices first thing on a sunday morning and it makes sense to continue the rest of the day and teach. Again when I am with the airlines I hope that I can keep this up as much as possible.

The point is that I have set this up as a long term thing - hopefully the next 40years!! Just because an instructor wants a job with the airlines, doesnt necessarily make him bad.

However, that said I want to make clear a very important point regarding 'ethics'.

As an instructor I will be logging the flights P1. OK so I get an hour in the old logbook. Fine. nice and dandy. But I believe this is a two-way bargin. In return for logging the time P1 (and what is normal rather small bit of renumeration) you must give something back.

That 'something' I feel is a combination of value for money, student progress, commitment, fair play.

Value for money - the student should never feel the lesson was a waste of money becuase the instructor didnt care.

Student Progress - the lesson MUST be useful to the student and contribute to their personal development of skill and airmanship.

Commitment - as a flying instructor your commitment is to that student - NEVER to yourself. You must ALWAYS do what is in the student's BEST interest - even if that means going out of your way slightly, even if it means ground training is to eb done istead of flight training. Then so be it.

Fair play - Each trip costs them money - don't waste their money by doing things which SOLELY 'progress your own licence/career'. Any benefit I gain as a flying instructor must ALWAYS be within the context of the previous three points.

Let me give you an example - not to blow my own trumpet - thats the last things I want to do (if anyone does this it should be students freely giving recommendations) - but to illustrate my points above...

Last night I went to the club - both my students were due to go solo, 2 other instructors were present, 1 of which was not due to fly with my guys. The second instructor flew with my first student - and authorised his first solo night- I then authorised a subsequent solo - one down. one to go. The other instructor then flew with the second guy - authorised him solo. Again I authorised a subsequent solo. Now this is where the points above come in to play - to get to this stage I have already juggled slots around to fit everyone in...we were supposed to have 2 a/c - but one went tech. So I sorted it out so both could fly. After the second guy finished 21:30...we totalled up his hours - another 1:05 minutes of night required to finish his night qualification - and we are beginning to run out of time...so we went flying. Result? He finished his rating - even though we went brakes on at just after 11pm...

Now this has cost me big time with my wife (got to take her out sometime soon as 'recompense') but lets examine the equation.

In return for my effort and commitment, I received 1:05 P1 in my logbook and 2 solo authorisations (towards my derestriction) from the 5.5 hours I was at the flying club.

The students BOTH successfully completed their night qualifications and can now place their applications with the CAA. More importantly they dont have to trek up to the a/d anymore - one coming in from bournemouth & the other from bristol. So by rejigging it around and putting in the effort in, I have saved them further lengthy trips. They enjoyed their flying (and hopefully their instruction!).

Both seemed pleased when they left.

To me, this is what I think instructing is all about. Give some, receive some. But at the bottom was was always 'the BEST interest of the student'.

I hope this enlightens some peeps who read this to realise that not all use low-hours (partially hours building) instructors are all bad!!!

Oh & btw - for me the biggest compliments I receive - which really make it all worth while - is to see the student enjoying their achievement, and most of all - having them come back and *want* to fly with me again. That *really* makes my day - I can't think of a higher compliment that can be given.

Sorry for rambling too long!. .FF

[Whirlybird]

FormationFlyer,

Sorry for the way I implied that all "hours building" instructors didn't care. Of course it's not true, and virtually no-one can make a living with flying instruction, so most instructors are going to be aiming for/working for/retired from the airlines. The guy I was referring to didn't care, that's all. But I should have clarified that.

[FormationFlyer]

Whirlybird - eek - Its OK I understood your original post as intended - I just jumped on it to give me a chance to vent something that I feel is fairly fundamental to instructing...unfortuately the type of instructor you talk of still exists - even with JAR modular courses - in the first instance because they are trying to get ATPLs issued before June and in the second instance because they are in my situation of being refused by the airlines for having low hours. However, my point is that just because these people find themselves in such a situation they should approach instructing in such a way people such as yourself dont have bad experiences.

IMHO if they cannot dedicated themsleves to the task in hand *and ENJOY IT* then they shouldn't be doing it and shoud leave to those who find instructing pleasurable.

Im just sorry that you had such an experience!

[Whirlybird]

FormationFlyer,

I agree with you completely. So did the instructor I eventually switched to, who found out what had happened, and sat there with steam coming out his ears muttering furiously that some people shouldn't be instructors. He was heading for the airlines, but totally dedicated to what he was doing. And when he left, so was the chap I ended up with, who sent me solo and who I hung on to for the rest of the PPL course, who made it clear that he wouldn't accept second best either in himself or anyone else, and that he was not only going to turn me into a pilot, but a good one. I'm extremely grateful to him. He got an airline job the day after I did my QXC, so I guess he's not reading this forum.

So you see, I don't condemn all instructors. But experiences like that have a way of not disappearing completely, which is why I so appreciated the sheer numbers of people taking part in this thread. Thanks again guys. <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[FormationFlyer]

Oh yeah and Whirlybird - as a wannabe instructor something you will be told on the instructor course is that one of the things that you bring with you (to instructing) is your own experiences. Be they good or bad - and the trick is to use them to your advantage in your career as an instructor.

AFAI can see this means you are starting off with, what I at least consider to be, one of the best attitudes to instructing that you can, precisely because of your own experiences....you are already on the road to being one of us and a good instructor!

Take care,. .FF

[The mole]

Some excellent posts on landing techniques and instruction thereof. I have 300+ hours of instruction and I am printing a copy of this thread to refer to in future. Thanks guys!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

FormationFlyer:

I would like to go back to your first posting and address one of your concerns.

Before I get into giving advice to other flying instructors I wish to make it clear that I am only expressing my thoughts and the teaching methods that I have strived to improve on for almost fifty years. It is also very important to note that the methods that I use were learned from some of the best instructors and pilots in Aviation over many years. These methods are proven by the performance of the student when they follow the instructions that I teach.

Assuming the student has managed the approach so as to have arrived in a position, attitude and airspeed that has the airplane lined up with the center line of the runway with sufficient height to arrive at the planned flare point without any change of attitude, speed or power.

A ) During the last portion of the approach the student must be looking at the point of flare to best judge the height at which to flare from the approach attitude to the level attitude. At fifty feet close the throttle, flare the airplane so as to achieve the level attitude at approximately five feet above the runway.

B ) At this point the student will look foward to a point approximately five hundred feet ahead of the airplane. In light aircraft this will be the point where the details of the runway show a loss of apparent movement. As the airspeed decays the loss of lift will result in the airplane settling towards the runway.

C ) When the wheels are one foot off the runway begin raising the nose to prevent the airplane from losing any more height. There may come a point when the nose will blank out the runway ahead of you, you now shift your sight line to look alongside the nose and still ahead the same distance you were looking before the nose blocked the view. At this point in the landing height judgement is enhanced by peripheral vision of the runway movement aided by the angle of sight to the point where you are centering your vision ahead of the airplane.

C ) At or near the point of stall the wheels will contact the runway resulting in a landing that should prevent the airplane from becoming airborne again.

Note:::

1 ) The foregoing description relates to tricycle gear airplanes and tailwheel airplanes.

2 ) Wheel landings in tailwheel airplanes require a different method.

I do not allow the student to look at the airspeed below about one hundred feet, if the attitude remains constant the airspeed will remain constant.

It is my beliefe that you should teach any manouver or task such as landing right the first time. I do not believe in teaching easy methods such as the use of power to gradually arrive on the runway. Once they master power off landings they will have learned to judge height, speed and attitude during the landing. After that they can experiment with power assisted landings which will be no real problem for them to master.

Of course the foregoing is a very condensed explanation of how I teach landings. It would take up to much time and space to go deeper into the other factors involved.

Once again this is how I teach and I am not suggesting that other methods do not work.

.................. .

:) The hardest thing about flying is knowing whento say no. :)

[FormationFlyer]

Thanks Catdriver.

The thread has become slightly skewed but weve now ended up back where we started. Whilst I know how to land, you know how to land, and I am fully aware of how it should happen, what they should be doing etc etc and we can assume that I can at least teach them what (and when) they are supposed to do to a reasonable degree...the question is what if it still doesnt click - what options do you have? How can you get around the students problems ad sort out the problems I know the standard methods - im looking for something more - I want an arsenal of techniques that I can use with a variety of situations and students - particularly those that dont 'click' with the standard technique...and even more importanty techniques to inspire & encourage so the issue doesnt affect their progress.

Any ideas? Everything is appreciated.

[Thumpango]

As a student PPL who is still trying to make consistent landings I would like to say "thank you" for all the information given in this thread. I have now printed these out and added them to my flight training instructions. This is the most detailed description of landing technique I have read so far. Even my instuctor did not brief to this level of detail. I can't wait for my next lesson!

[Whirlybird]

FormationFlyer and others,

I have no idea if the following will be of any help; I'd almost forgotten it till now...

After several futile hours spent trying to teach me to land, my 200 hour instructor obviously asked the CFI, who had about 4000 hours, for some help. This guy took me up for an hour. He gave me clear, explicit, but BRIEF instructions on what to do. The other guy had told me so much I'd got lost in the detail; more is not always better when it comes to flying instruction. Some of what I remember is that during the approach I was to "look at the numbers, then the trees at the end of the runway, then the airspeed, then the numbers etc, and keep doing that". I don't remember how he taught the actual flare etc, but I know he talked me through the whole lot, and then made me do one alone with him talking me through it but not touching the controls, which boosted my confidence enormously. It also meant I had a correct picture to start to remember, instead of numerous incorrect ones - very important for those of us with depth perception difficulties, which I now know was my basic problem.

He then handed me back to the other instrutor, who messed up all his good work and destroyed my. .confidence completely. And he left the next week, so I couldn't even ask to fly with him instead. But all that's another story.

Hope someone can use this.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Whirly mentions depth perception, this is a common problem among flying students and is easily overcome through explaining to the student where to look and what changes in the picture they are looking for.

Lets examine where to look and what to look at first.

Here is a senario... You are taxinig across a large ramp and half way across the ramp is a hole in the pavement, not wanting to drop your nosewheel in the hole you of course will want to avoid it.

Now in order to avoid dropping your nosewheel into this hole would you look at the tree line at the far edge of the airport?

When ever I hear flight instructors tell their students to look at the far end of the runway or the treeline in the distance it gives me concern for their understanding of triangulation, because that is what height judgement is, it is triangulation by sight line, you determine height by measuring the angle between your eye level and the point you are looking at.

The further you look ahead the more shallow the angle will become thus the more difficult it will be to determine the height. Exactly like figuring the third side of a triangle by using the angle of difference of the two known sides.

Now lets go back to the hole in the pavement, to avoid it we look at it to determine our relative position from it...therefore when judging distance from some object such the flare point on a runway it is obvious we must look at the point from which we are measuring our relitave angle, distance and closing rate.....

I could go on about this but rather than bore everyone to death I think I will go and make myself a coffee..

............... . :) The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :)