New Modular School

[suedee]

I'm a PPL holder looking for a Modular school. I've found, by chance, the new school called Pilot Ground Training.
Does anybody know anything about them?
Talking to other schools gives the impression that they are a group of ground engineers who have never flown!!! How do they expect to teach what they have never done?
There web site looks good, but I'm worried about a brand new school with no track record, or flight experience.
Help please - These threads worry me about how to choose a school. I've only got one go at this and must get it right.
sb

[scroggs]

I know nothing about this organisation, but in my experience (27 years of flying and counting) the best ground school instructors are not necessarily pilots. In fact, they need never have flown at all.

Scroggs

[PFD]

Talking to other schools gives the impression that they are a group of ground engineers who have never flown!!! How do they expect to teach what they have never done?
Suedee.

What did you expect the 'other' schools to say? Why don't you use the Register Interest link on their site and take it from there?

Anyway, since this is the first post about them on here, it's unlikely the 'other' schools know more than you do at the moment.

I can tell you that one of the Directors is at least A CPL holder so he's sat all the Exams as well as teaching in his subjects.

Thanks to Scroggs for his statement, it's true. This school may have technical instructors who have not flown, but it also has instructors who have, mainly for the 'flying' subjects. Regardless of their background, they all currently teach the JAR-FCL objectives, and have been checked out by the CAA.

Their web site looks good, but I'm worried about a brand new school with no track record, or flight experience.
You're right to be cautious, but they do have a track record, just not on their own so far. I'm sure more information will come out in the near future.

Good Luck with your career, wherever you decide to learn.

[flystudent]

Hi suedee

This is my 2nd reference to these guys. I posted about these guys last week (or was it this week, they all merge into one these days).

Having done a bit of digging the way that curious people do and finding out who they are I can say whole heartedly that They will teach you well for the ATPL. How do I know ?? ... Because They taught me. I'm no rocket scientist and I got an average in my ground school exams that shocked me (it was good, not bad, lol)

You are right to be cautious about a new outfit offering to take several thousands of your cash in return for some lessons. But it is my understanding that to teach the subjects as these guys plan to under this umbrella, you need to be approved by the CAA or JAA (Don't quote me).

I suggest you contact them and find out the names of the people who will be teaching you and ask around if anyone knows of them, do the research.

I am not linked with this organisation.

All the best
Flystudent

[suedee]

I am worried about this school. How can anybody teach navigation, planning or flight procedures without having experienced professional flying?
PFD - you say a director is CPL and sat the exams - is that just the lower level CPL exams, or the ATPL exams? If ATPL then why is he only CPL, and it would appear not an IR?
I have been asking around and it appears that several of the instructors have been sacked from a major school. If this school is throwing them out are they really as good as they say?
No prices so far, and no approval! Unless there is something very special about this place then - no way! The risk is too great. I am prepared to be swayed because a small school should be better, and recent threads about Oxford and London Met worry me - but surely there is no sustitute for experience?
Can anybody help, or hopefully dispel my concerns? I would like a full-time modular course.
sb

[Alex Whittingham]

As far as the groundschool goes I wouldn't worry about being taught by non-pilots. Most ground instructors in the UK are just that, usually ex-navigators, flight engineers and ground engineers. PFD says he's joining the school as one of the instructors and Send Clowns has implied another well respected instructor from Oxford will be joining him. You would usually need a minimum of three or maybe four ground instructors to make it work so it sounds like the core staffing is very sound. I would be surprised if these instructors were sacked, its much more likely they just decided to leave Oxford to set up on their own. Either way PFD and OB, if it is he, will clarify.

Although I can't make it out completely from their website it seems they will be offering 'full time' modular classes for the ATPL and will probably be trying to fill a market niche vacated by a school called ATA which recently closed. You don't need huge resources to run these courses and a group of instructors as experienced as these, perhaps using off-the-shelf Oxford notes, will be able to do a good job from day one. Approval is unlikely to be refused.

The flying school seems to be a separate company in the same building.

[Obs cop]

Suedee,

I have to say I wouldn't get hung up on the flying qualifications or airbourne experience of ground instructors.

The fact that someone is an experienced ATPL does not mean that they can teach to ATPL standard. I would far rather have a good ground instructor who has never flown than an ATPL who is vastly experienced, but struggles to teach.

The majority of my groundschool in the forces was by engineers who got more pleasure out of pulling aircraft apart than flying in them. In fact most of them declared that pilots were mad for flying collections of nut and bolts in loose formation.

Getting back to the point, find out what the pedigree of the instructors is with regards to how well they teach and whether they meet your needs. This will be far more important than the flying qualifications they hold or otherwise.

Regards

Obs cop

[PFD]

I have this official reply to suedee from Pilot Ground Training, as posted in their forum.

Suedee

You incorrectly assume despite previous assurances, that our instructors do not have the experience to teach Navigation, Planning or Flight Procedures. We can assure you that is not the case, as our instructors in these subjects have taught these for what you call ‘The Big Boys’.

The subjects you quote are interesting, you are of course aware that there are 14 subjects within the ATPL Theoretical Exams. You may well find that when studying the internals of an aircraft engine, electrics and aircraft systems, an instructor with aircraft engineering skills would better pass on their knowledge, not just their experiences. We understand the selection of a ground training school is of importance to you but we would suggest that what you hear from other schools regarding competitors is not perhaps the best way to form an opinion.

As you are probably aware for the issue of a commercial licence, there is a requisite number of flying hours required, which includes a 300Nm cross country flight, so why not fly down to one of our seminars, so you can accurately judge for yourself. We’ve even arranged that visitors to the seminars pay no landing fees if they uplift 50 Litres of fuel from Kemble.

We wish you good luck with whatever ground school you do select, you may wish to consider asking questions, not just of instructors abilities (all of whom must be approved by the CAA/JAA) but of things like, class sizes, instructional hours given (in the classroom), course profile, price, availability of accomodation and security of your payments.

It would be a pleasure to meet you if you can get down to us.

I would just like to add that there will be more details soon I am told. Also thanks to the other posters in this topic.

[arfur-sixpence]

To back up what the other chaps have said, the best ATPL ground instructors are the NON-pilots.

Engineers do the best job of teaching engineering subjects, navigators do the best job with the navigational subjects and for the odd "piloty bits" such as ops procedures and air law, those apply equally to ALL aircrew, whether pilot, nav or flight eng.

Just for interest, suedee, have you managed to find a ground school that IS taught by pilots? I don't know of any!

[Alex Whittingham]

Well, we have seven instructors of which four are members of the two winged master race and two are members of SODCAT, one Flight Engineer and one Navigator. We also have one ground engineer who, amongst other subjects, teaches Helicopter Principles of Flight!

[outmanoeuvre]

suedee,

You should check your facts before you post your messages. The three instructors in question have not been sacked but have chosen to leave to start this new enterprise.

I have not been through ground training myself at Oxford but I recently met a student who has, and he described them as "dynamic, dedicated and extremely popular".

Reading the replies to your post, I hope that your concerns have now been dissipated.

[silverknapper]

One gets the distinct impression this post's origins are deliberately inflammatory.

[PFD]

you say a director is CPL and sat the exams - is that just the lower level CPL exams, or the ATPL exams? If ATPL then why is he only CPL, and it would appear not an IR?
It would appear that he wanted an instructors ticket, so he took all 14 ATPL exams.

[High Wing Drifter]

I say too, that when the ex Navs and Engs pull up a stool holding a glass of water to recant various events of derring-do, luck, madness or any combination thereof it makes what would otherwise just be sheer slog...fun! I wouldn't say the "best" just, that comparisons are irrelevant :8

Edited to take take out repeated words

[loftustb]

Have been taught by several ex- RAF Navigators and Engineers who knew more about their subject than most pilots ever will.

[Obs cop]

Of particular note here is that Suedee joined Pprune on 26th July, made 2 posts (which appear to have been designed to discredit people and the organisation they work for) and since has not posted.

Might I suggest Mods that this thread be deleted?

Obs cop

[The Boy Lard]

Obs Cop,

Firstly I'm not associated with this company in any way shape or form.

I have however happened upon one of the guys who are setting up, who did my groundschool when I went through the mill 2 years ago (really must update profile) and they are quite upset that this thread should be seen as a cheap shot at self advertising.

Personally I wish them all the luck in the world!

I just wanted to set the record straight.

TBL

[Obs cop]

The Boy Lard,

I think you have misinterpreted my intentions as I have not amde any mention towards "cheap advertising", and neither have I any intention of upsetting anyone. It is not of interest to me who advertises or otherwise on Pprune as I have no commercial interest with regards to my flying. I have no vested interest in any flying traing organisation, and I will only make comment on organisations I have personal experience of and have relevant information concerning.

Indeed with my current employment I am more keen than most on openess and honesty, but I felt (rightly or wrongly) that the original intent of the thread may have been to try and discredit an organisation in the process of establishing itself through misleading and inaccurate information.

In any case, I feel that the thread poses no purpose other than to confuse potential studunts who search the Pprune forums for guidance and advice. You will note that my posts on this matter did not make comment, adverse or otherwise on any organisation let alone the one which is primarily being discussed.

Like yourself I wish them the best as these are interesting times to be trying to establish a training organisation,

Best wishes

Obs cop